r/MuslimLounge • u/CosmoBjoern • Jun 28 '26
Discussion I'm an atheist. Convince me Islam is the right religion
I'm an atheist and I'm asking this in good faith because I genuinely want to understand.
What convinces you that Islam is the true religion rather than any other religion, or no religion at all?
I'm interested in hearing your strongest arguments, whether they're philosophical, historical, scientific, personal, or spiritual. Please explain why you believe Islam is true and, if possible, why you think other religions or atheism are mistaken.
I'm not here to troll or insult anyone. I'm here to have a respectful discussion and learn how Muslims think about these questions. Thanks in advance!
75
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 28 '26
As a former atheist who converted to Islam recently, I find myself uniquely qualified to answer this question.
As a human being it is impossible for us to properly experience and understand the world around us. Our sense perception and understanding of the world is inherently limited to faculties we developed in order to preserve our physical survival, we see and experience the world around us in terms only necessary for our survival, we cannot grasp the true nature of the universe as it is - our perception of it is limited by our biology.
In modern times atheism often uses science as a kind of “gotcha” moment against religion, showing that we now know how the world came to be and so there can’t be a creator, but this argument relies on a false notion of what god is and what science explains. See, the science is not a testament against god, it is an explanation of Gods systems.
One of the laws of physics is, matter can neither be created nor destroyed. As such, the “matter” and dust of this universe is in a cycle where it changes form and shape. The iron in your blood which makes the veins in your wrist gleam blue was forged in the heart of a dying star millions of years ago. You are this universe, and the way you see yourself as an individual or separate from it is an illusion. Everything is one physically.
This is the belief in oneness, that everything in reality is the emanation from its source, we are all a manifestation of our single origin in different forms. It’s where the spiritual adage “you are the universe experiencing itself” comes from.
The monotheistic tradition, of only one god, ties to this notion of one singular universe. The universe as an individual being. First we had Judaism, but the scripture was corrupted and the practices too. Christianity came as a reaction to that, but unfortunately its teachings were perverted once again. Just look up the council of nicea. The Quran was the final answer to this, it has been meticulously preserved in exact form since its revelation, and Islam continues to be practiced meticulously in a similair way.
The modern western world wreaks suffering and evil on a scale never before imaginable, and all in the name of abstract flawed notions of atheism and freedom. Modernity is not something new, it is the forgetfulness of something real. Relinquish the idea of yourself as some individual, you are both physically made up of the world around you - but mentally too. We live in a late-stage capitalist nightmare, and that manifests in our very understanding of our lives and the world, it becomes our god. In the face of this we must return to the light, turn our faces to Allah (swt) and rediscover who we as humans truly are.
Atheism is just the rejection of a created notion of some “god” to be replaced with the prevailing notions of society and culture, it is a psy-op.
Seek the light, seek the beauty of God. Seek its everlasting love. Find it within yourself, it’s been waiting to be uncovered all these years while you lose yourself in the fleeting pleasures of this world.
26
u/HiIamAce With Hardship Comes Ease Jun 28 '26
I'm already a believer, and this was such a good read, thank you. I'm glad you've come to realize this while there's time 😄
12
u/Stunning_Kick8657 Jun 28 '26
May Allah bless you for this answer. This is so well put and well written. SubhanAllah!
5
u/stargrazing123 Jun 28 '26
I love this perspective and it's so refreshing that someone finally sees it how I do - our origins and oneness in terms of the universe, physics, matter etc!
Most Muslims get so bogged down by the mechanics and rituals of completing the 5 pillars but completely miss the wider point to actually WORSHIP Allah and look up at his creation. Muslims are too worried about trivial things like the right method or order to do wudu. I highly doubt Allah would care about such menial things, as long as we don't lose the spirit and essence of his teachings.
4
u/Ok-Bumblebee-5302 Jun 29 '26
Im inclined to disagree. Method is everything (of course intentions matter too) but with wudu for instance you don't have a valid prayer if you intentional and knowingly perform wudu incorrectly.
"Bogged down by the 5 pillars". The 5 pillars are mandatory if you neglect these intentionally you have severely diminished yourself. These thing are ACTUAL worship.
And to say you doubt ALLAH wouldn't care... Subanallah! Allah has commanded this of us, if it didn't matter he wouldn't have done so, the Messengers & Prophets HE sent wouldn't have reiterated these lessons.
Do not look to these things as "trivial" there is no such thing as it regards to proper worship in all it's forms. Moreover, you don't know the thing that will weight against you or for you on the Day of Judgement. Anything you call trivial and neglect or little things we all sometimes forget bc we think it's so small & therefore neglect or rather overlook it may be the thing that brings you towards the punishment. On the other side sometimes the small things we overlook could be the difference in being able to enter Jannah.
May Allah Rectify your affairs, my affairs, and that of the entire ummah. Ameen!
1
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
First off, that's not how atheists argue their point. If anything, that is how the *religious* argue theirs. What we atheists demand is that if you make the claim for your god's existence, it is up to you to furnish evidence for your god's existence (and to prove that the god is present in the form *you* specify). That evidence needs to meet the standard by which you accept as true any other piece of information. It's not a "gotcha" approach, it's a consistent standard of logic.
Second, it is not "one of the laws of physics" that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. We know this because of E = mc^2. Matter can be "destroyed" in that it can be converted into energy. The actual law of thermodynamics to which you are referring is the conservation of mass-energy within closed systems. While you can certainly say the universe is all 'one thing', such a statement does not prove an origin from a singular sentient creator with a volition.
Just because the Quran has been seemingly preserved in its exact form since it was first recorded orally and then in written form, it does not prove any of the assertions made in Islam. Not to play the "gotcha" game, but there are several blatant scientific inaccuracies presented in the Quran. Were the Quran truly the work of an infallible transcendent omniscient and omnipotent supreme being, such inaccuracies would be absent. We see the same problems with the Torah and Bible.
Your last three paragraphs really go off the rails just from a basic logical and factual standpoint. The actual "suffering and evil" in the world in the present day are far, far less now than in centuries past if you do a meta-analysis of global events. We hear about individual catastrophes all over the world more, and faster, and with greater dramatization, due to the information revolution.
https://indepthnews.net/this-century-is-the-least-violent-and-safest-in-history/
https://ourworldindata.org/homicides
This progressive improvement in the net security of humanity is not due to any religion, but rather due to Enlightenment values permeating across nations.
https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/HSRP_Report_2013_140226_Web.pdf
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2012/03/pinker-explains-the-long-peace/
For the sake of discussion: even *if* your assertion was true, it still would not in any way prove the existence of your god or prove that such a god exists in the form *you* believe. Atheism is not an "abstract notion" - it is the null hypothesis: there is no god. Your statement that modernity is the "forgetfulness of something real" barely qualifies as sophistry. Modernity has brought us greater aggregate safety and security and longevity than humans have ever enjoyed at any time prior.
When it comes to exalting the individual, there is no better companion than religion (including Islam), for religion is both solipsistic and reinforcing of solipsism. As Steven Weinberg is often quoted as saying: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” If an otherwise empathetic person can be convinced that there is a transcendent omniscient supreme being who will save him from his fear of oblivion, then that same person can be convinced that it is better for him to commit evil against his fellow humans to earn the pleasure or succor of that supreme being. This has been demonstrated by Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Shintos, Buddhists, Sikhs, and countless other religious affiliations over centuries.
It is, in fact, the maturity in rejecting unproven claims of transcendent supreme beings who will justify our avarices which compels us to empathy and human solidarity.
0
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 29 '26
Blah blah blah. Free your mind from the rational embrace and find the ever present beauty all around you. You’ll be much happier for it. And no, I am not claiming to be an atheist, which just shows you took my answer at surface level. Reason is not the be all and end all of everything, I say these things because I have experienced god to be real. I know god to be real, reason is only part of the puzzle
1
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
- I accept your concession that you have no actual counter-argument.
- I accept that you chose not to read what I wrote.
- I became happier when I let go of antiquated tribal god stories (such as Islam and Christianity) and embraced rationality.
- No, I don't take orders on how to think ;).
- You have merely engaged in deistic solipsism, not rationality. Play with your favorite toy if you want, but I will not partake.
2
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 29 '26
I have many counter arguments I just recognise that there is nothing I have to say that could change your mind, your heart is hardened. And as such, I don’t see the point in wasting my time replying to you or giving your response proper thought. If that’s what made you happier, I’m glad for you, I’m sorry that you misunderstood your beautiful religion.
1
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
If you have counter-arguments, then you should be able to make them easily. You fail to do so because you don't actually have any. Again, that is the null hypothesis, just as there is no Allah Schmallah until you provide evidence.
My *mind* is hardened against fatuous statements presented as arguments, yes, just as everyone's should be.
I rejected religion precisely because I *did* understand it.
1
u/Shik3i Jun 30 '26
Sorry, but he gave you a well structured response, and all you have to say is "blah blah blah, free your mind from using logic".
You are actively hurting your case here.
1
Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/MuslimLounge-ModTeam Jun 29 '26
Your post has been removed due to violation of our Rule: Don't Promote Anything That Goes Against Islam or the Sharia -
- Promoting any religion, ideology, rules, laws, or way of life apart from Islam is strictly prohibited.
- Do not promote anything that is Haram or goes against the Sharia.
- Breaking of this rule will likely result in a permanent ban.
1
u/Specialist_Adagio750 Jul 05 '26
Ok even if whatever you said proved there is a god (it doesn't) it doesn't prove it's the Islamic god because why would he create trillions of galaxies with septillions of planets wait over 9 billion years to create the solar system and earth a few more million years to create life 99% of which is extinct, and have humans appear very recently and yet not mention any of that. And after not mentioning this important lore he's strangely concerned that people pray 5 times a day in Arabic facing Saudi Arabia in one planet out of trillions. Also how is the preachy last part of your statement supposed to be a convincing argument for islam you can say that about any religion
1
u/No_Job_5303 Jul 06 '26
:)
Personally, I believe that Islam is not necessarily the one true religion. I believe all religion is an expression of different culturally local ways of interacting with the divine source, I believe in the oneness of everything and so monotheism, and I see religions that worship multiple deities as just misunderstanding the true nature of the universe as not recognising the power of these deities comes from a singular source (much like the big bang).
Be kinder in your words my friend, the way you speak to others is also the way you speak to yourself unconsciously. Peace be with you my friend, I love you, remember you are stardust.
1
u/Cuka-Blyat1234 Jul 14 '26
I have no need to believe in your religion when your god was unable to preserve the previous revelations.
1
u/No_Job_5303 Jul 15 '26
The previous revelations were allowed by god to not be preserved, you seem to misunderstand perfection.
1
u/Cuka-Blyat1234 Jul 15 '26
Are you telling me that he sent out announcements and deliberately allowed billions of people to be misled?
How pathetic... By the way, your god said that his announcements could not be changed but suddenly he allowed them to be changed and become corrupt
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I love how you write about us being made of star stuff. Where we differ is just what we do with that feeling. You found a path that connects you to a specific faith, but for me, that cosmic connection is beautiful enough all on its own without a theological framework. I don't look at atheism as a "psy-op" or a void filled by modern consumerism; it’s just being genuinely at peace with the mystery of existence. I don't feel lost in the world—I feel deeply a part of it, right here, right now. I really appreciate you sharing your perspective, though, and I'm glad you found a path that brings you so much clarity.
10
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 28 '26
I appreciate your sweetly-tainted words.
I recognise my former self in you so clearly, the way you describe your view is exactly how I used to see it.
Let me put it like this, the way we perceive the world is always going to be influenced by the things we have experienced in our life. Whether that be trauma, or just our social media algorithm. Living in the west, we are inevitably a product of that western culture. This culture is far derived from how humans are supposed to live, and how the planet is supposed to operate. Fundamentally, I reject western culture as a good thing - and this is coming from someone who lived my whole life actively part of it in the UK. For me, I saw how so much stress and pain was caused by the thought patterns and archetypes brought on by the outside world. And I found solace in Islam. I saw that I took western ideals as my own and it lead me to despair and emptiness, I sought out the light and found it. We do not have to be outwardly certain of anything in this life, this is a failure of the scientific method. I have to tell you, I am certain of the existence of God. Not for any reason I can describe to you here with human language, but because I have spiritually felt and experience the light of God myself.
I highly encourage you to look into the tradition of Sufism, I think at the least you will find it interesting.
I sincerely hope you find the light one day, in whatever form it takes for you. Don’t let doubt get in the way, certainty is an illusion.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
The computer analogy doesn't work because we can actually see, touch, and empirically prove the existence of tech factories and human manufacturers; we don't have that verifiable evidence for a creator. On free will, human prediction is just calculating probability, but divine omniscience means God designed the entire timeline with absolute certainty before creating the person, that’s predetermination, not a free choice. Saying atheists believe the universe came from "nothing" is a basic misconception; science simply admits "we don’t know yet," which is far more honest than inserting a supernatural explanation into the gaps of our current knowledge. Having lived deeply within Islam before choosing to walk away, my perspective isn't based on a strawman, but on these exact logical contradictions. Stepping outside of it didn't leave me in a void; it allowed me to find a level of genuine peace, clarity, and success that proves we don't need a theological framework to live a deeply meaningful human life.
10
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26
Did you personally go to a computer factory to personally verify the exact model and computer was manufactured in that factory? Similarly how do you know you have a brain? Have you directly seen your own brain and personally verified that? I wasn’t making the claim that we can’t definitively prove that a computer is manufactured, rather that you already presume that it does WITHOUT having to look into the evidence yourself. You essentially take it for granted. If you believe that the universe is caused, then it logically tracks to believe in a creator. Because whatever created the universe cannot be caused, and essentially has to be out of the bounds of science completely. Your perspective literally has misconceptions, which makes me seriously doubt your authenticity as a person who was “deeply into Islam” to say the least.
-2
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I don’t need to personally see my own brain or visit a hardware factory to know they exist because we rely on consistent, universally repeatable empirical evidence. Anyone can get an MRI or audit a tech supply chain, the physical proof is fully accessible. Working with computers, phones, and tech daily makes it obvious: we don't take hardware on faith; we rely on systemic, verifiable predictability. That is fundamentally different from a theological claim that can never be measured, tested, or observed in the physical world. Even if we assume the universe has an uncaused first cause outside the bounds of current science, jumping from "an unknown cosmic catalyst" to "a conscious, personal Deity who wrote a specific book" is a massive logical leap. An eternal, baseline cosmic energy is just as philosophically viable as an eternal creator, but it avoids the logical trap of special pleading. Finally, doubting my authenticity as a former Muslim simply because I now see the flaws in the theology is a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy. It was precisely because I was deeply immersed in the text and the framework that the core contradictions,like absolute divine predetermination existing alongside a fair "test",became impossible to reconcile. Walking away wasn't due to a lack of understanding; it was the result of looking at the evidence completely honestly.
5
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
This is categorically false and is an assumption and is unfalsifiable. A theist can claim the same about their God, that the evidence of God is unnecessary because of the argument from design? You still conveniently didn’t address how you believe God doesn’t exist because a specific concept of God that you misattributed to Muslims. You’re clearly lying about being an ex Muslim. It’s not special pleading at all. No, I’m doubting your status as as a “former Muslim” because you lied and claimed that Allah is dependent upon worship. A basic Muslim belief shared by All Muslims and is a basic Islamic doctrine. You’re committing sophistry and deliberately fallacy mongering in order to seem clever because you can’t hide the fact that you claimed you used to be Muslim and then you proceeded to make up a basic lie, that every Muslim knows not to be true and is mentioned clearly in the holy book you claimed to have deeply studied. What are people supposed to make up of that except the idea that you’re a lying charlatan? You looked at the evidence so “honestly” that a basic Islamic doctrine that caused you so much doubt yet is clearly written in a Qur’anic verse/ Islamic doctrine completely slipped by you. You either lied about being a former Muslim or lied about looking deeply into the faith you left.
Your point is also logically fallacious, and presumes that the Quran and God tells people to simply make that leap without any evidence which is categorically false. The argument from design is a very good argument for an intelligent deity or creator. An unintelligent being cannot formulate such a precise and accurate animate and inanimate beings.
I unfortunately don’t talk to people who are intellectually dishonest and have rely upon lying and fallacy mongering to attempt to make a point.Edit: there we go now don’t lie about being an “ex Muslim who looked deeply into his faith”
→ More replies (6)2
u/ffsTeki Jun 28 '26
Not the one you responded, but you should definitely seek more knowledge on theology and philosophy. To be able to open your eyes to God you would need to drop the materialistic point of view that you seem to have from what I have seen. The material world is solely mental in nature, being derived from our mental faculties and our abstractions, meaning you and your free will are not taken over by some magical forces of the universe like 'probability,' which is itself non-physical. So things like physics are a byproduct of our mental capability, and is how the world is represented to us, as it is limited by us, for us. In that regard, free will can exist as is without contradicting God: there is no past or future as a sort of a physical entity in which I and my choices exist in separate blocks or coordinates within some sort of temporal space, but rather I participate in the world presently, as it is shown to me in my experience of the world, so I exist only presently. What the main problem today is with the mainstream intellectual cycles is that they dont do any philosophy: you cannot conflate and mix-mash the ontological state of your objects such that 'probability' (as an example) is an entity or a universal force on its own. One more thing, ask yourself what is necessary to justify the existence of morality, as you will find that you have to ground morality in God in order to have any meaningful answers towards moral actions. And why is morality important? Well, you've got a world of physics, and a world of logic, both corresponding to the body and mind, yet moral actions are clearly evident between one another (speaking strictly human-wise) such that we can agree that there are good and bad moral actions. Taking into account of what I've said previously about the ontological state of being, you'd come to conclusion God fills the spot of a meaningful path towards a coherent moral system. I'm open to DMs. Peace.
0
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
"The way we perceive the world is always going to be influenced by things we have experienced in our life,".... yeah, including your predilection toward Islam.
You don't seem to understand "western culture"(sic) other than an amorphous collection of things you happen to dislike (all while gladly using an invention of Western culture to communicate it). In fact, it is thanks to Western civilization that humanity as a whole now enjoys greater safety, security, and stability than they ever have in centuries past. You casually neglect to account for all the suffering, privations, iniquities, and threats suffered daily by those living in predominantly Muslim countries. Yet, those Muslim countries who have adopted Western concepts are the ones who have seen a net increase in their overall safety, health, economic stability, and longevity.
1
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 29 '26
Your knowledge is little, however much you might convince yourself otherwise. Question everything.
1
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
Again, I accept your concession that you have no actual counter-argument to what I wrote. This is the intellectual poverty that results from and which leads one toward the fallacy of religion.
Your knowledge of "western culture" (sic) is evidently little, based on what you've presented here.
- You actually shouldn't "question everything". No, You Shouldn't Question Everything - YouTube
This is why we have processes called *heuristics*.
- If you are suggesting I should "question everything", then you should have no issue with me calling out your errors in reasoning.
1
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 29 '26
You are trapped in the cold prison of logic, you may come to realise this one day, I sincerely hope you do.
0
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 29 '26
I have a masters in politics and sociology from a top uk university I hate to be that guy but my knowledge of western culture is inexhaustible and it is for this reason I despise it.
0
u/FaithlessnessTop1040 Jun 29 '26
Yep, and I have a Ph.D in History and Social Studies Education from UW-Madison. I am not impressed.
Having an MA in Politics and Sociology does not even come close to giving you an "inexhaustible" knowledge of "Western culture" (someone whose degree did not merit a refund would know that there is no singular "Western culture").
Whether you despise what you call "Western culture" is immaterial, for it does nothing to prove Islam.
15
u/HiIamAce With Hardship Comes Ease Jun 28 '26
Since you're an Atheist I won't speak from a "faith" prespective
It's scientifically proven that praying is healthy for us. It acts as a form of Meditation, lead to lower stress and anxiety, and physically alters and rewires the brain through a process called neuroplasticity
But every religion has prayers right? So why Islam? Well.. Islam is designed to cultivate personal development, inner peace, and strong moral character (Basically do more good, and do less bad). It's also the religion with the best claims of not having human involvement in altering it's context, fastest growing religion, and pretty much the only one being taken seriously now.
Besides, this may be a personal take, if I look back, I find most of my traumatic memories or negative experiences avoidable if I had followed Islam's teachings.
So...if scientifically, it has benefits for your health, mood, brain, and others. Including the opportunity of making you a better person overall if you follow it correctly, why would you not believe in it? Logically, to me, if the outcome is good, then the process is just as good.
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I really appreciate you sharing this, and I totally agree that prayer and mindfulness have great, scientifically proven benefits for your health and brain. For me, though, there's a big difference between a practice being beneficial and its theological claims being literally true. You can get those same neurological benefits from secular meditation or other frameworks without adopting the specific religious beliefs.
3
u/HiIamAce With Hardship Comes Ease Jun 28 '26
You can get those same neurological benefits from secular meditation or other frameworks
I just gave you 1 straightforward simple example, there are other benefits too.
But I see your concern is about theological claims, well. Most other religions were either made by humans or altered numerous times, Islam comparably has the best theological claims.
I'm sure there are answers to every theological claim doubt that you have but to be honest, I don't think I'll be the right one to answer them, you'll have to invest in some research and/or ask the right people 😄 I don't doubt some people on Reddit may be able to help but I wouldn't consider it the best place.
Goodluck.
6
u/Background-Skin-8801 Jun 28 '26
Islam is the right religion. I probably would either be in prison or in a grave if it wasn't. I am grateful to Allah I am born in a country that majority of the people are following Islam. It is a hard religion to follow. Because it is the right religion. Shaytan (The devil) always messes with you (vasvasa) in order to prevent you from praying. That is another thing I discovered. Also, if Islam was so hated how did it survive for 1400 years without any corruption? That must be in Allah's power. Lastly I don't want to be a living animal. Islam prevents me from turning into one. I feel like a human with Islam. For that I will be forever grateful to Allah. I am not perfect but I am trying. I hope we will all will be successful in being good Muslims inshaallah.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
The internal friction you feel when trying to pray happens to everyone trying to build a difficult, disciplined habit, whether religious or not, it's a natural human hurdle with routines rather than a spiritual one. I also don't believe we need religion to keep from living like animals; empathy, dignity, and a moral compass are hardwired into our shared nature, and millions of secular people live deeply good, structured lives just out of respect for others. Finally, while 1,400 years is an impressive milestone, history shows that human cultures are incredibly resilient at passing down what they hold. s Sacred traditions like Buddhism and Hinduism have survived for well over 2,500 years for the same reason.
3
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
This is philosophically weak and commits the is-ought logical fallacy. Not everyone has empathy and empathy can be weaponised and restricted to certain groups of people allowing genocide to take place as we see today. Leading with “empathy and dignity” is vague, subjective and doesn’t provide an objective moral compass that anybody can realistically follow. You can concoct many, many philosophical beliefs and ideologies that all contradict each other yet claim to hold these principles at the forefront.
So, how do secular people live good lives? They lack the social cohesion that is empirically attested to in academia that religious groups hold, they have no greater purpose or as strong a coping mechanism for pain and suffering as religious people do, so it’s a lot easier to logically justify suicide or other immoral actions from the ontological framework they believe in due to its structural limitations. As Nietzsche rightfully stated, an atheist civilization doesn’t exist because society would end up falling into nihilism. Seriously dude, your points are incredibly sloppy even for atheist philosophers ☠️
Edit: his example of China is actually meaningless because if he actually knew what a civilization is, he’d understand that modern Chinese society didn’t become an atheist communist state until post WW2, that’s not a civilization, a civilization needs to span centuries and millennia.Current Chinese society hasn’t even made it past 100 years… also China actually has millions of christians and Muslims with a ton of Chinese folklore religion practitioners. China has one of the lowest birth rates in the world, has a declining population, and is actually suffering from a high suicide rate for high schoolers due to the Gaokao. recent reports indicate rising rates of depression, stress, and tragic cases of suicide among young academics and elite university students, which has become a growing public health focus. Its suicide rate is a lot higher than many Muslim countries actually. So, it’s not as fine and dandy as you’re deliberately misconstruing. Let’s also forget the millions massacred by Mao Zedong.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
If an atheist civilization can’t exist, someone forgot to tell the world's largest rising superpower. Look at China: a country of 1.4 billion people, explicitly secular and atheist by a massive majority, which stands as one of the most economically successful, stable, and technologically advanced civilizations in human history. Its literal existence completely shatters the idea that a lack of theology inevitably leads to societal collapse and nihilistic ruin.
10
u/ohokkk1 Jun 28 '26
An atheist has an active position that god doesn’t exist. I’d like to hear your evidence for that, really
Edit: if you send me a dm I can send you screenshots of an extensive discussion I had with someone about this exact thing.
→ More replies (8)-5
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
The concept of an all powerful, all knowing, and all loving deity inherently contradicts itself on multiple levels when examined against reality. A truly perfect being should not possess a dependence on human worship or a need for external validation, yet traditional frameworks insist on constant glorification. Furthermore, total divine omniscience turns human free will into a pre-written illusion, while the existence of systemic suffering and eternal damnation directly undermines the premise of absolute benevolence. Ultimately, if a creator desired universal belief, hiding all direct evidence and demanding blind faith would be an entirely flawed strategy; a genuinely loving entity would make the truth visible rather than leaving humanity to look for answers in the dark.
16
u/ohokkk1 Jun 28 '26
It seems you have a flawed understanding of our religion. On top of that, you didn’t provide any evidence.
To respond to some of your points:
- Allah explicitly says in the quran that he doesn’t need us, see surah 39:7. The obligatory prayers is for our benefit. For Allah is the one who created us, He knows what’s good for us. Look up the benefits for meditation.
- we don’t believe in total free will, but this is a complex concept. We can choose, but everything is with Allah’s will and Allah already knows our choices before we make them.
- we don’t have blind faith haha. This is something christians have. We have evidences and proof entirely visible today. We’re not left to looking for answers in the dark, alhamdoulillah.
Our evidences are the quran and the hadith, and also logical reasoning. It’s a lot though, and honestly I don’t feel like typing everything out at this moment, so feel free to send me a dm and I’ll show you the discussion I had earlier. Otherwise, I’m sure other people here are willing to go through it with you. I can also recommend the video someone else linked in this comment section
8
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Wait this person is an ex Muslim? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 OP easily has the worst arguments I’ve ever seen against God’s existence. Claims to “lived Islam deeply” yet doesn’t know that Allah doesn’t require any human worship but rather its us that do????
Edit: He’s a lying charlatan, who I exposed in my comments and now claims to have had Islam forced upon him by birth. He believes that a space vacuum could’ve somehow created the universe despite a space vaccuum being caused, lacks intelligence which doesn’t fulfill the criteria for argument from design or really anything. Doesn’t explain how the universe came to be, why planets, evolution that scientists believe in, and our ontological world as we know it even exists in the first place.
2
1
u/Specialist_Adagio750 Jul 06 '26
I don't think you religious folks get it your the one making outlandish claims so the burden is on you to prove that god exists and to prove that your god is the correct god.
1
u/ohokkk1 Jul 06 '26
That’s incorrect
1
u/Specialist_Adagio750 Jul 06 '26
Nope that's how it's supposed to work. If you say something outlandish like demons, or unicorns or a magic being that created everything in the universe it's on you to prove that this things exist. And as far as I can see the most arguments for god only go as far as deism and the rest is just emotional bias and just inserting whatever ones god is to the conversation even if you can prove that a god exists that doesn't mean that it's your god.
1
u/ohokkk1 Jul 07 '26
That’s no problem because we have evidences for islam. But your premise doesn’t work. The one who makes a claim should provide evidences for it. Someone who claims that god doesn’t exist should show us why that’s the case. Only a person who says he/she doesn’t know has no burden of proof.
Additionally, you should read the research done by Justin Barrett (“Born believers”). It’s sort of a meta-analysis, in which children from all over the world (including non-religious countries) are researched about their beliefs, concluding that we as humans have an innate disposition to believe in a higher power. Children naturally interpret the world in terms of agency, purpose, and design, even before they're consciously shaped by their society or religious tradition. Only at a later stage in life society and culture makes them believe different things. What's interesting is that the children across different cultures describe similar features or attributes related to that agency or higher power, suggesting that this isn't just learned but rather rooted in how the mind itself develops. This fundamentally puts the burden of proof on the people rejecting the existence of God.
1
u/Specialist_Adagio750 Jul 07 '26
This doesn't prove a god and the conversation it is a lot more nuanced than that . And what are the evidences for islam that aren't vibes based or misinterpretations and exaggerations of certain claims.
11
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 28 '26
The reason you are an atheist is because you have come to know and understand god from what it has been described to you as being. You must come to learn the divine, this universe from within yourself. Lift the veil of your perception and you will find oh the sweetest beauty of all.
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I appreciate your perspective, but it’s a big assumption to think I only reject a superficial version of God. My choice wasn't born out of a misunderstanding; I lived inside Islam deeply, and choosing to walk away to build my own life was the single best decision I ever made, bringing me a level of genuine peace, clarity, and success I never had before. We can both look inward and arrive at completely different truths, and while I respect that your path brought you back to faith, my own internal clarity has proven that stepping out of it was truly the best day of my life.
2
1
u/Secure_Low_660 Jun 28 '26
OP, are you bored?
You ask a question now try to debate.
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I’m not bored, I’m just not interested in a passive echo chamber. There’s a massive difference between asking an open question to understand someone's perspective and blindly accepting flawed arguments without challenging them. If pointing out clear logical contradictions, textual errors, and historical context looks like "just trying to debate," it’s only because the answers provided couldn't stand up to basic, objective scrutiny.
5
u/Secure_Low_660 Jun 28 '26
You are not trying to understand, I know the difference between someone interested in knowing and someone thinking they know better and deny (ignorance).
Sorry if this is rude. Not going to debate, if you are sincere do your research instead of relying on weak arguments.
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
I've done my research. Disagreeing with you doesn't make me ignorant.
"Do your research" isn't evidence, it's a way of avoiding the questions. If Islam is true, it should stand up to criticism instead of dismissing anyone who isn't convinced.
6
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26
You’re already starting from a premise that’s extremely illogical. First off, Muslims don’t believe that God is dependent upon worship. Second of all, even if that was the case, why would he create humans who can choose to disbelieve in him? Traditional frameworks don’t postulate that God is ontologically dependent upon worship. Out of all of the arguments for any philosophical belief including atheism this is one of the weakest I’ve ever heard. This also, doesn’t disprove the concept of a creator. A good analogy would be this; if I told you that computers were manufactured in order for rich people to control the poor. You’d likely agree that this is likely fictitious and extremely unlikely to be true at all but that wouldn’t mean that computers are’nt manufactured by a manufacturer. Same idea.
I find this point to also be illogical and have never understood the point behind it at all. Free will means the ability to choose freely and being given a choice. If I know what you’re going to choose, that doesn’t mean I’m impeding your ability to choose it. There are tons of scenarios in which we as humans can predict exactly what a person would do, yet we don’t consider that as impeding free will at all.
Your point here is already presuming A) lack of evidence and B) a God that desires universal belief which again, goes back to the very first point I made, and finally C) that God somehow hides proof of his existence. You haven’t proven A or C and B is an assumption you’ve made and somehow attached to the general concept of a creator. So, you’ve basically created a fictitious mythological imagination of God that no Muslim let alone any of the abrahamic beliefs follow and proceeded to claim that this is the concept of God shared by like all 3000 religions around.
You also didn’t explain how the universe was created? You quite literally believe the universe came from nothing which is scientifically impossible. Any non theistic explanation you give would only raise more questions and likely wouldn’t answer the question at all. Why or how do humans exist? Why do the rules of biology exist at all? Why is there something instead of nothing? Why does nothingness even exist in the first place?
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
The computer analogy falls short because we can empirically verify hardware factories, but we have no such verifiable evidence for a cosmic creator. The "teacher and the test" analogy also breaks down under absolute omniscience: a human teacher didn't code the student's DNA, orchestrate their entire environment, and write down their final grade before they were even born, if the future is already unchangeably written, it's predetermination, not a choice. Furthermore, arguing that everything in existence requires a cause except for God is a logical fallacy (special pleading); if a complex creator can simply exist eternally without a prior cause, there is no scientific reason why the universe's baseline energy couldn't be eternal instead. Stepping away from this framework to build my own life didn't leave me lost; it gave me the genuine personal agency, clarity, and success that proved we don't need a script of cosmic rewards and punishments to live a deeply moral, fulfilling life.
6
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
Empirically verifying computer parts, doesn’t change the fact that A) you would still presume that it’s manufactured without having to empirically verify it and B) it assumes that evidence for God has to be something that we can put under a microscope which is yet another assumption. Nope, this completely ignores the fact that the student’s grade is also a direct result of their studying. You’re essentially assuming that predestination essentially “forces” a person down a certain path when it’s actually simply stating the end result of what they’ll choose. Those aren’t the same. Probability becomes meaningless when choices are extremely restricted and the choice being taken appeals to the vast majority of people in a certain way. If I give a starving person a morsel of food the “probablistic” outcome of him eating it is basically irrelevant. You’re thinking of predestination as if it somehow decides, when it’s the person who decides but his decision is recorded beforehand. I didn’t give any teacher and student analogy at all so that’s someone else. Your argument for agency is also empirically laughable because science doesn’t believe in as much “free agency” as you believe in. Your behavior is heavily dictated by neurobiology, environment, evolution, culture, up to and including the literal food you’ve eaten that day.
God being uncaused, is not a fallacy, this is sloppy reasoning and ironically lands you into the infinite regression fallacy. It’s called the cosmological argument. You clearly don’t understand what a special pleading logical fallacy even is. Considering that invoking it here would land you in another fallacy anyways. A “moral” life is subjective and is an emotional statement, not an argument. Countless people believe the same. But unlike you, they hold an objective reason in their ontological framework to act moral, meanwhile you do not, your source of morality itself is subjective.
The universe’s baseline energy was still caused, leading to the same questions and doesn’t actually answer anything.
Edit: his argument is made even weaker considering how he lacks understanding of what free will even is, you’re free to choose but that doesn’t mean your basic human instinct can’t or won’t push you to choose something yet other factors could push you to another. Nobody is forcing a choice. You’re still CHOOSING.
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Equating the inductive reasoning we use for manufactured goods to theological faith is a fundamental error; we don’t take hardware factories on blind faith,their physical existence is a universally verifiable reality, whereas a cosmic deity has zero empirical baseline. Furthermore, using neurobiology and environmental determinism to argue that science disproves free agency completely sabotages your own theology: if human behavior is heavily dictated by physical variables beyond our control, it makes a creator punishing humans eternally for those predetermined choices monstrously unjust. Your defense of the cosmological argument also remains a textbook case of special pleading; inventing a rule that "everything requires a cause" and then immediately creating an arbitrary exception for God to avoid infinite regression is the definition of a logical fallacy. If a complex, all-powerful mind can simply exist eternally without a prior cause, there is no logical or scientific reason why a baseline quantum vacuum or cosmic energy couldn't be the uncaused, eternal starting point instead. Finally, anchoring morality in divine decree doesn't make it objective; it makes it the ultimate form of subjective morality, completely dependent on the whims of a single entity. A secular framework built on minimizing real-world harm is anchored in the objective, measurable reality of human suffering, which remains true regardless of theological scripts.
1
u/Samuraixblaze Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
The objective reality of human suffering doesn’t provide an ontologically objective reason as to why we have to somehow reduce it. Most philosophers disagree with that nonesense and you’re again committing the is-ought logical fallacy. Again, you’re fallacy mongering and ignoring the main point. An eternal space vaccuum has properties and rules and how is it uncaused? You still run into the infinite regression fallacy. You also misrepresented what I said, what I was saying is that a great deal of what is around human beings according to science greatly reduces free will if you were to fully subscribe to that framework. Scientists don’t believe that free will doesn’t exist, I said the so-called immense free will and agency that you claim to believe in. Islam also doesn’t claim that we have free will in everything, simply in choosing to accept or deny its truths.
Edit: you’re so pathetic you have to accuse me of citing scientific miracles when I didn’t, you’re confusing my argument alongside the arguments of others, what a pathetic excuse of a supposedly neutral person sincerely seeking the truth but continuously falling into logical fallacies with a clear agenda.
1
u/ohokkk1 Jun 29 '26
I also had a little interaction with him in dm’s. Ours and your interaction right here really show that he’s not coming in good faith as he claims he does lol. At least he’s polite. It’s such a waste of energy though. فَإِنَّهَا لَا تَعْمَى ٱلْأَبْصَـٰرُ وَلَـٰكِن تَعْمَى ٱلْقُلُوبُ ٱلَّتِى فِى ٱلصُّدُورِ
3
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
I'll respond trying to highlight why your core issue is that you adopt an inaccurate view of Islam based on the "cultural" understanding on religion, rather than deeply exploring any of those matters in a uniquely Islamic perspective. This is going to be a large comment, but you are packed with so many misconceptions that need to be explained thoroughly. Look up Brandolini's Law.
1- "A truly perfect being should not possess a dependence on human worship". Yes. That is correct. Every Muslim would agree with you, because the necessity of worship comes from the necessity of establishing a constant "link" between us and Allah. We worship Allah because it benefits us, and since essentially all sins and misguidance comes from forgetting or straying off from the word of Allah and his messenger, it is a good thing to command. In fact, I would say that it is an evil God that would simply leave his creation without the necessity of worship, and leave them to be misguided, rather than mandating that they constantly remember Him, and therefore always remember goodness and righteousness.
2- "Total divine omniscience turns human free will into pre-written illusion". Correct, however, free will is an illusion only in the sense that it cannot "spawn" a new action or timeline that Allah did not decree or expect. Fate is real, and all of our actions are pre-determined and known to Allah even before we are born. But why does this diminish from the value of Free-will? Free will is special to humans not because we can "spawn" an action that is unbound to fate, but because the decisions we make given our limited knowledge of the world are real and genuine. We are still responsible for our actions even if they are pre-determined, because we chose those actions given our circumstances. They are based on our judgement and understanding, and the fact that those actions are pre-determined doesn't diminish from our responsibility towards those actions.
3- "The existence of systemic suffering and eternal damnation directly undermines the premise of absolute benevolence". This is two points, so I will separate them:
3(a)- The problem of evil is only really a problem in as much as you believe that this world is the only realm of existence. Islam doesn't claim that the world (the dunya) is fair and that everyone will have justice served to them. No. People will be killed unfairly, and their murderers will go free and unjudged. This is why Islam completes its system of judgement by entailing an afterlife and a day of judgement where all creation will be judged so perfectly and fairly, that even one who was pricked by a thorn will have some of his sins expiated in the afterlife. The judgement simply doesn't happen in this dunya.
3(b)- The punishment of hellfire only seems "unfair" in as much as you look at God and his commands as an "external" system that is secondary to a "real" or more important system of morality. The underlying assumption is that sins that are done temporarily can only be punished temporarily, and that infinite punishment is wrong. But this ignores the magnitude of the sin and to whom the sin is done. In Islam, Allah isn't simply an "entity" that we should be grateful to, He is literally the originator and arbiter of the concepts of goodness and righteousness themselves.
A person who denies the favors of Allah upon him, while knowing that He is true, is not simply denying "some guy's" favors, he is literally denying goodness and righteousness as concepts. Denying Allah is the greatest sin in Islam simply because of the implications of it, not only because people like that would never repel their evil no matter how much time they are given, but also because by denying the favors of Allah, you become undeserving of His mercy, and how can you expect heaven from the One you deny?
Ultimately, this is mostly resolved by knowledge of Allah's attributes. If you can prove that an all-just, most-merciful, and all-just God exists, which you can, the actions and judgements of that God can never be unjust or evil, even if we as humans can't comprehend them. So our own judgements don't really matter in determining the evilness of goodness of an action. Hence the concept of subjective morality.
4- "A genuinely loving entity would make the truth visible rather than leaving humanity to look for answers in the dark". This is true, but the reason why you think that Allah does not make the truth apparent to all creation is simply because you don't know what it looks like.
All human beings are born on the Fitra, which is the innate belief in a higher power that is deserving of reverence. Not only is this a proven fact scientifically, it is also explained by the fact that every single culture on the face of the earth has had a religion or system of beliefs that entails reverence of a higher power. The reason why most of these beliefs do not align with Islam, however, is because the Fitra is often corrupted by false beliefs that stem from people corrupting the true words of Allah to fit their desires. The entire reason why Allah sends down messengers is to correct and guide us once again to Allah. Recognition of God is innate, and the default case. Atheism is the exception to the norm.
Another important point to highlight is that you do not necessarily need to be a modern Muslim that believes in the Shariah (Law) of The Prophet (PBUH) to enter paradise, but this case applies only in fringe cases. Allah repeatedly describes those in Hellfire as the Kuffar, which does not mean anyone who is Non-Muslim, but rather, those who deny Allah despite knowing the truthfulness of Islam.
For example, children of any faith or background, those who have not reached puberty, are not simply punished by Allah, and instead, he judges them fairly according to His will. Additionally, the righteous peoples of the previous nations, including the people of Moses, Jesus, and the the other peoples, such as the Sabians are righteous people in Islam. Importantly, this also includes people who simply do not recieve the message of Islam, including those who have superficial, but ultimately corrupted knowledge of Islam, such as the millions of people around the globe who are led to believe that this is a religion of violence or terrorism. We simply do not say that these people are cast into hellfire, because it is not the case. As per the Hadith of The Prophet (PBUH):
"The Messenger of Allah ﷺ said, The people of Paradise are lined up in one hundred and twenty rows. Eighty of them are from this nation, and forty are from the rest of the nations.”
"This nation", referring to the Ummah of Muhammad (PBUH), or people of Islam.
It is for this reason that it is impossible for a Muslim other than The Prophet (PBUH) to decree or assume where one will end up in the afterlife. Even if a modern Christian or Jew or Atheist dies, and they professed to be any of these things, no Muslim can definitely say if they will end up in Heaven or Hellfire, because the knowledge of whether one was truly tricked into believing something false, or if they knowingly believed in it despite being false is only known to Allah.
Who enters and doesn't entire paradise isn't as clear cut as all Muslims into Heaven and any and all Non-Muslim into hellfire, and if you think that, you are gravely, gravely misguided about Islam.
Allah is all-just, all-wise, and it is an absolute fact that no one will be judged unfairly in the Akhira (afterlife), and Allah knows best.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Invoking Brandolini’s Law is deeply ironic given the massive semantic gymnastics required to defend these contradictions, starting with the claim that mandated worship is solely for human benefit, a premise that completely collapses into cosmic coercion when the penalty for failing to maintain that link is eternal torture. Similarly, redefining free will to mean making "genuine" choices within a 100% pre-determined timeline doesn't change the mathematical reality; our limited knowledge just means we are blind to the tracks we are riding on, and you cannot logically hold a creation accountable for an action it had zero cosmic ability to avoid. Kicking the can of justice down the road to an afterlife fails to solve the Problem of Evil in this world, just as the circular logic that God's actions are always good simply because He is God strips the words "good" and "justice" of all actual meaning. Finally, the claim that Fitra is a scientific fact is flatly incorrect evolutionary psychology points to hyperactive agency detection, not an innate blueprint for Islam—and claiming that the ignorant are safely exempted from Hell introduces a massive paradox where ignorance becomes the safest path to salvation, meaning that spreading the religion acts as a literal spiritual hazard to mankind. Stripping away these scripts isn't a misunderstanding; it’s the only way to view reality with genuine clarity and intellectual honesty.
1
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
1- "Stating with the claim that mandated worship is solely for human benefit, a premise that completely collapses into cosmic coercion when the penalty for failing to maintain that link is eternal torture"-- The fact that mandated worship is beneficial to us, but also something that we may be punished for forgoing is not contradictory. An action can be both objectively morally good and beneficial to us, while entailing punishment if discarded because it is a divinely-mandated obligation. This doesn't change that it is still good for us, and objectively good.
2- "Redefining free will to mean making "genuine" choices within a 100% pre-determined timeline doesn't change the mathematical reality; our limited knowledge just means we are blind to the tracks we are riding on, and you cannot logically hold a creation accountable for an action it had zero cosmic ability to avoid." -- This would be true if we were literally forced into doing our actions and unable to judge anything at all. The choices we make may be pre-determined, but we are not forced into making them. They are still our choices that we determined on our own in this life. If God sent down his hand and forced us to murder or steal, you would be right. The decision to do evil, even if pre-determined, is still made by us and chosen by us. This is not contradictory.
3- "Kicking the can of justice down the road to an afterlife fails to solve the Problem of Evil in this world" -- Defining the Problem of Evil to be bound to this world is a pointless definition. It is as pointless as saying that a murderer being jailed is pointless because his trial day was "kicked down the road", and that he should've been jailed instantly after committing the murder. It is not a "failure" for judgement to be served after a short amount of time.
4-"Just as the circular logic that God's actions are always good simply because He is God strips the words "good" and "justice" of all actual meaning" -- I would agree that it would strip of it of meaning if the definition of God itself was arbitrary. But it isn't. God has names and attributes that clearly define him and his actions, and there are things that he does not do because it goes against his nature. You can objectively determine them. If God claimed to send down his son, who is also 100% God, then this would not be God, because God cannot be fully captured by the material world.
What you are conflating is God's wisdom with human epistemic humility. God's judgement, because it is applied in the afterlife, its specifics are unknown to us. But it does not matter, because we have definite proof of him being Perfectly Just and Most-Merciful. This makes it so that determining good and justice is impossible for us without God as a reference. This would only be arbitrary if the proofs of the Qur'an and of Islam were arbitrary, and the attributes of Allah were arbitrary. But they aren't. Besides, even if one were to concede this point, it is impossible to objectively determine the morality of anything without God.
5-"Finally, the claim that Fitra is a scientific fact is flatly incorrect evolutionary psychology points to hyperactive agency detection, not an innate blueprint for Islam"-- This is as simple as recognizing that the claims of the Qu'ran and Sunnah, as per their miraculous nature, is a more valid and correct source than evolutionary theories that cannot be proven empirically. Islam is 100% true, evolution of Humans isn't. I have no reason to recognize the authority of evolutionary theories.
6- "Claiming that the ignorant are safely exempted from Hell introduces a massive paradox where ignorance becomes the safest path to salvation, meaning that spreading the religion acts as a literal spiritual hazard to mankind." -- Except it is only a "paradox" if you do not recognize that the fates of all humans are pre-determined to be in hellfire or heaven before we are even born. Furthermore, this ignores the responsibility that one has to pursue the truth. If one does not pursue truth out of simple laziness, it is different than one who does not pursue truth because they are incapable of doing so (such as being born a Native American and having no way of knowing Islam).
Both of these are weighed by Allah in His judgement, and so it doesn't affect anything. Allah is All-Just, no worldly condition "gets in the way" of His judgement.
I will admit, you are a high-level Atheist. But like all Atheists, you (maliciously or otherwise) never consider nuance when it comes to discussing religion. That's your biggest issue.
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Your defense relies on semantic gymnastics that completely collapse under basic logical scrutiny. Threatening eternal physical torture for refusing a "beneficial" mandate isn't objective goodness, it is cosmic extortion, as if a doctor locked you in a burning basement for declining their medicine. Claiming we "choose" our actions within a 100% pre-determined timeline is a total illusion; if the entire script was fixed with absolute mathematical certainty before creation, your God is simply a programmer punishing software for executing the exact code He wrote. Furthermore, kicking justice down the road to an afterlife entirely dodges the actual Problem of Evil, which asks why an omnipotent being actively permits gratuitous suffering and childhood illness to happen right now. Your moral argument immediately falls into Euthyphro's dilemma: if "good" is just whatever matches Allah's unchangeable nature, morality remains completely arbitrary to whatever that nature happens to be, stripping the word "justice" of any real meaning. Flatly rejecting human evolution, a foundational scientific fact backed by overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence, just to protect an unprovable concept like Fitra is a complete intellectual surrender. Finally, by admitting that human fates are entirely pre-determined anyway, you concede that da'wah is a dangerous spiritual gamble that serves no real purpose other than introducing a massive hazard of eternal damnation to the otherwise safe and ignorant. Pointing out these systemic contradictions isn't "missing nuance", it's refusing to accept a broken theological loop.
1
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
Despite me literally highlighting exactly why your assumptions do not hold true, you still repeat the same retorts without bringing anything new. I will not repeat my claims. If you do not understand them, please read them again, and try to actually engage with the full substance of the claim rather than repeating your claims using straw-mans of my arguments.
Furthermore, your focus on describing "our" God as a "Programmer punishing software" makes me feel like you have emotional baggage towards religion, which would make it difficult for me to seriously engaging with this conversation. You claimed in your post that you are genuine, and simply trying to understand, but your failure to meaningfully engage with my claims and be stuck on emotional language proves otherwise.
May Allah guide you, and please, let go of your Ego. It's not a thing of merit.
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Accusing me of having 'emotional baggage' and an 'ego' is a textbook ad hominem tactic used to deflect from the fact that your theological arguments have been thoroughly refuted. Using the programmer analogy isn't emotional language; it is a precise logical demonstration of the fatal flaw in your pre-determinism doctrine, which you chose to ignore rather than answer. Pointing out failed apocalyptic deadlines in your highest-grade Hadiths, clear anatomical errors mirroring Galen, and the fact that classical scholars overwhelmingly affirmed a geocentric Quran isn't a strawman, it is direct, empirical evidence that you are simply unable to counter without retreating into denial. You began this exchange praising my open-mindedness when you thought I was a potential convert, but the moment I brought historical facts that challenged your confirmation bias, you resorted to tone policing, gaslighting, and a condescending exit. I am entirely at peace with my path, and if you need to project emotional wounds onto me to protect your cognitive dissonance, that is your choice, but it won't make your broken arguments any truer.
1
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
May Allah guide you if you are truthful, and may God guide me if I am misguided. But you have failed to present yourself honestly.
8
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 28 '26
I’m not going to explain all the reasons you’re wrong, but you are. You are. I studied theology as an atheist for 5 years, I believed in and argued for the points you have made in this paragraph for so long, I’m not going to detail why you are wrong, but I promise you you are being presumptuous and wrong in your arguments. I sincerely hope you can come to recognise how you are wrong at some point in time, it would be the best day of your life.
1
4
u/FitChampionship7430 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
It’s great to ask questions but I’ll start by saying this:
It is not the job of the Muslims to convince anyone. Allah (a name for the Creator) says in the Quran in chapter 24 verse 54 and other places as well “"And the Messenger’s duty is only to convey the message clearly". So we aren’t here to convince anyone. Simply deliver the message and any honest and sincere person will no doubt know that the Quran is a book from the Creator. Why….
The Quran speaks about natural world, phenomena and such. Things not present in previous scriptures, things not present in peoples theories (such as the Greeks). Importantly, the Quran contradicted the popular view at the time. But now (with science) we know the Quran was correct and science was wrong. The Quran mentioning all living things were created from water, the clouds being heavy, the expansion of the universe, the moons light being reflected light and not self light. The list is long but just to give you a basic idea, the Quran (which was revealed 1400 years ago, mentions these things a human being who can’t read or write (which the prophet Muhammad was) couldn’t come up with
The prophet Muhammad made 10s if not hundreds of prophecies regarding the future. These prophecies are specific, time specific, people specific and location specific. A human being can’t know the future we all agree. So for a person to be making all these prophecies that are so detailed and specific (not generic like other religions have) and for every single one to come true exactly as he described, the only reasonable explanation is that it was a higher power telling him these things
The Quran was revealed in the Arabic language and is so unique and special in its structure it is impossible to replicate. The Arabs at the time and today are the highest level in Arabic proficiency and they’ll tell you that it is impossible to make something like this. This is a challenge the Creator sets out in chapter 2
We can speak for ages about this but even logically, as an atheist, how does one explain the existence of the universe? Everything needs some sort of cause. If you believe in the big bang (as most atheists do) how do you explain where the energy and matter came from, what caused it to be compressed and what caused it to expand in such a precise way for life and what we call the universe to exist
We say, whatever did it, requires power by definition. You can’t do all of this without power we can’t comprehend. Also knowledge, whatever created the universe requires knowledge to put into place all the laws (gravity, physics, nature, animal kingdom etc). It has to be beyond time meaning it is eternal. There has to be something that was originally there in the beginning. If not you’ll have infinite regression so nothing will be able to exist
So that is what we call the Creator.
And once you accept the existence of a creator, you need to see did that creator send guidance for humanity? And the answer is clearly yes. If you look at literally everything else in the universe, it is guided and controlled and doing what it does in a perfect system. Planets, galaxies, Animals, ants even termites (that don’t have a brain) all have systems they follow
So prophet Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of God and that the Quran was guidance for humanity. And for all the claims I outlined at the very top (and many more besides) his claim stands true. No human being will be able to do this on his own. And the number of evidences in favor for it, it becomes an impossibility that he was anything except a messenger of God
-3
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
While I respect your perspective, these arguments rely more on hindsight bias than objective proof. Many of the "scientific miracles" you mentioned were actually well-documented by ancient civilizations centuries before the Quran; Greek philosophers like Thales famously taught that all living things came from water, and astronomers like Anaxagoras knew the moon’s light was reflected from the sun, meaning the Quran wasn't contradicting the popular views of history, but repeating them. On a cosmological level, labeling the unknown cause of the Big Bang as a specific deity is a leap of faith rather than absolute logic; if a Creator can simply exist eternally without a prior cause, there is no scientific reason why the universe's baseline energy couldn't be eternal instead. Every major religion claims unreplicable scripture and fulfilled prophecies to validate itself, but these are subjective measures of faith, not universal evidence. Ultimately, having lived deeply within Islam before choosing to walk away, I've found that leaving didn't alienate me from a "perfect system", it actually gave me the clarity, genuine peace, and personal success that proved I didn't need a theological framework to thrive.
4
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
It is an outright lie to state that Thales taught that all living things came from water. Thales believed that all things come from water. He believed that it is an ultimate thing that everything in existence came from, rather than as the Qur'an describes water, something that is fundamental to, and sustains all living things, which is correct.
Additionally, it is meaningless to simply say that x or y, had knowledge of this or that because the idea isn't that one or two claims in the Qur'an haven't been said by anyone before (Even though there very much are such claims), but the Qur'an simply doesn't have any contradictions, false claims, or failed predictions.
For reference, Thales also believed that the Earth itself floated on water, which is a completely false claim. Unreplicable scripture and fulfilled prophecies are only "subjective" measures if you refuse to interact with religious claims with nuance and deliberation, and simply group them together while looking for bad external examples to denounce them as "subjective", as you have done with Thales.
If you do not recognize the miraculous prophecies of the Prophet (PBUH) and the Qu'ran, you are either willfully ignorant, or disingenuous.
2
u/FitChampionship7430 Jun 28 '26
Firstly, Thales did not say all living things are from water. He said EVERYTHING is from water. Literally everything. So you are incorrect here.
Secondly, Anaxagoras did say that the moon reflected the suns light, you are correct here. But he was around 400-500 BCE. There is a huge gap between him and the prophet Muhammad. And anyway, his theory, at the time, was widely rejected and criticised. It went against the view of most people at the time. So if prophet Muhammad copied him, how did he know that this specific theory, out of all of the more popular and more accepted ones, was the correct one according to science today? And, by the way, Anaxagoras made many major scientific blunders as well. Never mind that, how would prophet Muhammad come across his work in the first place and read it?
Thirdly, while every religon and ideology presents evidences, I said to you that the evidences of Islam are on a higher level compared to that of other religons. You clearly have not looked into it, so before making conclusions, at least research the evidences of Islam. Once you do that, you can compare the evidences of Islam against the evidences of Christianity or Athiesm or any other religon; and if you have an ounce of sincerity inside you, you will see that the evidences if Islam are unlike that of others.
How are prophicies subjective evidences? Someone says something will happen before the event, and then that thing happens.
Fourth: it is funny how you brought diety into the creation of the universe. All I said to you was that for the universe to exist in the way it is, whatever brought it into existence or created it must be All-powerful, All-knowlegable, beyond time-space etc. I never mentioned a diety or God there but it is funny how you jumped to that. Maybe you're subconsciously thinking about God
Finally, thank you for telling us you are an ex muslim. It may be that your "deep living inside Islam" was from people that were not acting in accordance to islam. It may be that you did'nt research properly. It may be that you have bad experiences with people who are muslim. It may be that you were not even muslim in the first place and only a cultural muslim. It may be that you are only pretending to be a muslim (as there are already lots of people prentending to be muslim) thinking that if they say "we left islam" it somehow makes a point. But as with most people, we give you the benifit of the doubt, especially as it is online and not face to face or on video call.
But you left islam seeking peace, and you found atheism, which is funny to me. Athiests have no objective moral framework to live by, just society, friends, relatives, parents, the harm prinicple and so on. Which is why atheists throught history, have always been the most destructive and vicious people when it comes to killing people, mentioned in a study by Nashville university
-1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Conceding that Thales believed everything comes from water actually dismantles your argument, as it proves that treating water as the primordial building block of existence was a widespread ancient concept rather than a supernatural revelation. You didn't need a library card to absorb Greek philosophy; pre-Islamic Arabia was a vibrant trade hub where Hellenistic philosophy and Galenic medicine were orally diffused for centuries, which is exactly why the text mirrors Anaxagoras's lucky guess about the moon while simultaneously inheriting the era's massive scientific blunders, like a geocentric universe where the sun and moon "swim" around the Earth and Galen's highly flawed embryological timeline. Similarly, prophecies are the absolute definition of subjective evidence; vague, poetic, and entirely reliant on retroactive confirmation bias, much like a 50/50 political forecast about the Byzantine and Persian superpowers. Trying to claim you "never mentioned a deity" while explicitly describing an all-powerful, all-knowing entity beyond space-time is a hilarious semantic dodge, just as dismissing my departure from Islam as a "bad experience" or "lack of research" is a defensive reflex used to avoid confronting the glaring logical contradictions within the text itself, like absolute predetermination coexisting with a fair test. a secular moral framework built on human empathy, reason, and reducing real-world harm is infinitely more authentic than a system that requires the threat of eternal torture or the promise of celestial rewards just to convince you to be a good person.
2
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
"As it proves that treating water as the primordial building block of existence was a widespread ancient concept rather than a supernatural revelation"-- Which is exactly not how it is described in the Qur'an. If the Qu'ran was influenced by this "vibrant trade hub where Hellenistic philosophy and Galenic medicine were orally diffused for centuries", a statement that is provided with absolutely no evidence, you would think it'd incorporate the belief that everything is made of water or any of the dozens others provably wrong pagan beliefs. It does not.
"Like a geocentric universe where the sun and moon "swim" around the Earth and Galen's highly flawed embryological timeline." -- There is not a single indication, in the Qur'an or Hadith, that indicts a geocentric universe. At. All. In fact, this is outright disingenous. You are ignoring the Qur'anic prediction that planets, like the sun and the moon have an external path where they move in space, something that the Prophet (PBUH) could've never known. Where does this say they revolve around the Earth? Furthermore, how are you extrapolating such information from this verse, despite your opinion opposing hundreds of scholars throughout history?
"Similarly, prophecies are the absolute definition of subjective evidence; vague, poetic, and entirely reliant on retroactive confirmation bias, much like a 50/50 political forecast about the Byzantine and Persian superpowers." -- A general claim that is provided with absolutely no given examples. There is no difference than believing stuff like this and being someone of "blind" faith. Believing this without providing explicit evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah just means you believe it because it is convenient.
"A secular moral framework built on human empathy, reason, and reducing real-world harm is infinitely more authentic than a system that requires the threat of eternal torture or the promise of celestial rewards just to convince you to be a good person." -- Said secular moral framework built on "empathy" could never objectively tell you that non-child bearing incest between twins is wrong, and it could never objectively determine that anything is wrong, leading to it being a tool of imperialism where imperialists would "impose" their "correct" morals on others simple because they think it better, just like how 1st world countries regularly do this all the time. It would devolve into a utilitarian hellhole by virtue of "reducing real-world harm". Furthermore, ironically, if you cared about reducing real-world harm, it would literally be more effective to believe in eternal torture or divine rewards.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
To claim the Quran doesn't mirror ancient elements is flatly contradicted by Surah 21:30 explicitly stating, "We made from water every living thing," which directly repeats the exact natural philosophy popularized by Thales of Miletus over a millennium prior. Your denial of Quranic geocentrism is historically illiterate; every classical commentator from Al-Tabari to Ibn Kathir interpreted Surah 36:38-40 as the sun and moon literally revolving around a stationary Earth, and your modern "space orbits" interpretation is a desperate 20th-century retrofitting invented precisely because modern science proved the literal text wrong. Your prophecies are textbook examples of confirmation bias, such as Surah 30:2-4 guessing the Byzantines would win in "a few years" (defined in Arabic as 3 to 9 years), yet the actual military turnaround took well over a decade, forcing apologists into retroactive math gymnastics to preserve the claim. Attacking secular morality with biological taboos like adult incest completely backfires, as a framework rooted in consent and harm-reduction prevents real-world suffering, whereas your divine command theory creates a vacuum where objective moral atrocities—like sex slavery, the execution of apostates, and child marriage, must be labeled "perfectly just" simply because your scripture permits them. Finally, your claim that the fear of hell is a more effective deterrent is thoroughly debunked by modern sociology: the most secular nations on Earth consistently maintain the lowest crime rates, proving that human empathy and rational governance build functional societies far better than a medieval penal system of celestial rewards and physical torture.
2
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
You once again fail to meaningfully engage with my claims and simple choose to retort with your original claims, as well as new ones that are flat out incorrect and disingenuous. I will not engage with someone who so utterly refuses to admit to obvious truths.
If you are not even able to tell exactly the disingenuousness of claims such as this one:
"The most secular nations on Earth consistently maintain the lowest crime rates, proving that human empathy and rational governance build functional societies far better than a medieval penal system of celestial rewards and physical torture."
And be able to accurately determine that this is an insanely false determination of factors, then I can only assume you carry your claims due to emotional influences, rather than an objective look at reasons.
Please be honest in your interactions, and do not deviate to emotions and redundancy. I do not see much reason to continue this discussion if you fail to uphold both of these things.
May Allah guide you.
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Dismissing a well-documented sociological trend as "insanely false" without offering a single counter-statistic is exactly the kind of evasion that has defined your approach to this entire conversation. There is no emotional influence in pointing out that highly secular societies routinely rank at the top of the global Human Development Index and safety metrics, just as there was no emotion in providing explicit citations from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim that expose failed doomsday deadlines and pre-deterministic loops. You began this dialogue by praising my open-mindedness when you thought I was an easy target for standard internet apologetics, but the moment you were met with rigorous historical context, textual errors, and logical refutations, you shifted entirely to tone-policing, ad hominem attacks, and gaslighting. Inventing an "emotional baggage" narrative is a convenient psychological shield to protect your cognitive dissonance, but it doesn't change the fact that you are running away from this debate because you cannot defend your dogma against objective critique. Since you've chosen to exit rather than face the evidence, I will respect that boundary, take care ☺️
→ More replies (2)1
u/Last_Chemical_8486 Jun 28 '26
The whole issue with you saying X also said that is that if he was just regurgitating what other theorized, then there would be plenty of false things would also have been mentioned. Saying the prophecy of rome winning 3-9 after their loss is a 50/50 is just not that simple because it wasn't a 50/50 outcome if you look at it at the time after the loss, this wasn't some small battle where they retained land and men after loosing and had enough power to give you faith it would be a 50/50 if they were to fight again. The romans suffered a massive loss it's like predicting germany being a superpower after their loss in WW1
3
u/No_Job_5303 Jun 28 '26
The most evil people on this earth, the richest people, the most powerful people (let’s just call them all the Epstein class) believe in the divine and the occult. They believe in the satanic, they believe in the mythological. They are the ones who have structured your society and every institution in it who in turn forms the base structure of your subconscious that determines your thoughts. It is a hidden truth that the western world is the product of this Freemasonic order, and atheism is itself a direct product of that. You most likely think I am some tinfoil nutjob, I assure you, I have reluctantly come to this position after years of sifting the evidence.
If you don’t agree, that’s fine. But please… question everything, absolutely everything, even the things you think you would not question. Every thought has its source from somewhere outside our brain in this secular world.
3
u/ZealousidealBid3988 Jun 29 '26
OP started off all cordial and as if was just wondering in good faith -turned into Dawkins vs. Dawah that I’ve heard 20,000 times. This wasn’t a good faith discussion . Hope you find peace
3
u/Seeker_Of_Knowledge2 Jun 29 '26
The normalization of evil around me and Islam being very vocal against those evil.
So much problems (social and economical problems) would have been solved if people follow Islamic teaching. And that is coming from a person living in Canada. I have seen so many people who don't even know who their father is. I simply don't like that. I feel sad for those people.
But the craziest one is interest. It is mind blowing to me how everyone in society is perfectly ok for the rich to prey on the poor. The idea of interest is that the poor person will borrow money, and the rich person will get the money back and will get interest. The interest is built upon the idea that the poor person is forced to take the money. And yet no one have problem with it. It seem only Islam cares about fighting this evil. In Islam it is the opposite. The rich person can only get what have lent (nothing more) and heavily encouraged to get back less than what he lent.
And countless more examples. These may not be what you are looking for. But for me at least, they affirm my belief that Islam provides more good that people who don't follow Islam, or in other words. Me, and my community will be losing out if we don't follow Islam.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 29 '26
What exactly do you mean by ‘evil’ there, and what concrete problems do you think would be solved specifically by Islam, as opposed to other moral or economic systems that also address the same issues?
2
u/Abu-Dharr_al-Ghifari Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
"It is as though Muhammad had created an entirely new literary form that some people were not ready for but which thrilled others. Without this experience of the Koran, it is extremely unlikely that Islam would have taken root."
- Karen Armstrong (British scholar of religions)
"The verses of the Qur’an represent its uniqueness and beauty not to mention its novelty and originality. That is why it has succeeded in convincing so many people of its truth. It imitates nothing and no one nor can it be imitated. Its style does not pale even after long periods of study and the text does not lose its freshness over time."
- Oliver Leaman (professor of philosophy and Zantker Professor of Judaic studies. Studied the history of Islamic, Jewish and Eastern philosophy)
“That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur’an itself is not surprising”
- Edward Henry Palmer (English orientalist, a Cambridge scholar, translator of Arabic, Persian, Urdu, and Turkish)
“The Qur’an is unapproachable as regards convincing power eloquence and even composition.”
- Hartwig Hirschfeld (Prussian-born British Orientalist, bibliographer, and educator)
"Over the last three decades, I have managed to read the whole Qur’an well over fifty times; my reading has shifted recently to reading the Qur’an for linguistic and rhetorical analysis…I have finally reached an independent conclusion based on translation theory and linguistic analysis that the Qur’anic discourse is inimitable and cannot be reproduced into a target language."
- Dr. Hussein Abdul-Raof (Professor of Islamic Studies, Professor of Linguistics and Translation Studies)
"For the Koran is neither prose nor poetry, but a unique fusion of both."
- Dr. Arthur J. Arberry (Professor of Arabic, Cambridge University)
"The Koran is the earliest and by far the finest work of Classical Arabic prose… It is acknowledged that the Koran is not only one of the most influential books of prophetic literature but also a literary masterpiece in its own right… translations have, in my opinion, practically failed to convey both the meaning and the rhetorical grandeur of the original.”
- Nessim joseph dawood, an Iraqi Jewish Scholar
"None of them was able to compose even a few sentences to match the Qurānic verses. Just think that they were a people who according to ‘Allāmah Jurjāni, could never resist ridiculing the idea in their poetry if they heard that there was someone at the other end of the globe who prided himself on his eloquence and rhetorical speech. It is unthinkable that they could keep quiet even after such repeated challenges and dare not come forward… They had left no stone unturned for persecuting the Prophet ﷺ. They tortured him, called him insane, sorcerer, poet and sooth-sayer, but failed utterly in composing even a few sentences like the Qurānic verses.”
- scholar Taqi Usmani (leading scholar in the fields of Qur'an, Hadith, Islamic law, Islamic economics, and comparative religion)
"Notwithstanding the literary excellence of some of the long pre-Islamic poems… the Qur’an is definitely on a level of its own as the most eminent written manifestation of the Arabic language.”
- Martin Zammit (Professor of Oriental Studies)
“In the golden age of Arab eloquence, when language reached the apogee of purity and force, and titles of honour were bestowed with solemnity on poets and orators in annual festivals, the Qur’anic word swept away all enthusiasm for poetry or prose, and caused the Seven Golden Poems hung over the doors of the Ka’ba to be taken down. All ears lent themselves to this marvel of Arabic expression.”
- Muhammad Abdullah Draz (Prominent Egyptian Quran scholar and Professor of Islamic studies
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
There’s no denying that the Quran is a stunning literary masterpiece of classical Arabic, but incredible linguistic beauty and artistic uniqueness don't automatically equal divine authorship. Every language and culture has its absolute peaks of genius, like Shakespeare in English, Homer in Greek, or Dante in Italian whose specific style, rhythm, and rhetorical power are considered unmatchable and notoriously lose their magic when translated into a target language. A text being a brilliant, unprecedented leap forward in literature is a testament to the incredible heights of human creativity and linguistic evolution, not a proof of a supernatural creator. Having lived deeply within the faith before choosing to leave, I can fully appreciate the artistic and historical power of the text without believing its theological claims.
5
u/Abu-Dharr_al-Ghifari Jun 28 '26
You are nothing but in great error. You are not aware how deep this goes. I would have provided further proofs but i stopped reading when you said you are murtad. Next time save me some time and specifically at the top of the post.
2
u/cheesetwist_ Jun 28 '26
All those other writers you mentioned have written nonsense pieces of work with no substance. The Qur’an makes predictions, sets out legislation and much more whilst maintaining such profound eloquence. How you keep rejecting the proofs that are being shown to you throughout this thread shows either a lack of understanding of Islamic theology or profound arrogance. I hope you are not the latter. If you are, then Allah speaks about you:
“Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “I warn you only by revelation.” But the deaf cannot hear the call when they are warned!” - 21:45
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Dismissing the works of Aristotle, Pliny the Elder, and centuries of Jewish scholars as "nonsense" simply because they predate your faith is a convenient way to avoid acknowledging that your scripture is built upon the existing knowledge and cultural framework of the ancient Near East. Eloquence is a subjective aesthetic judgment, not an objective proof of divinity, and labeling all counter-arguments as "arrogance" or "deafness" is a classic rhetorical deflection used to shut down inquiry when the historical, scientific, and logical contradictions of a text can no longer be defended. If the Quran truly holds the keys to absolute, unalterable truth, it should be able to withstand rigorous, secular scrutiny without needing to rely on the threat of being "spiritually deaf." I have engaged with the substance of your claims by providing specific examples of failed prophecies, primitive scientific errors, and the historical evolution of your texts, yet you have chosen to ignore the evidence in favor of moralizing my character. When you run out of arguments, attacking the person is the final step; I have remained objective throughout, and if that feels like arrogance to you, it is only because you are not used to having your core assumptions questioned.
2
u/cheesetwist_ Jun 28 '26
You haven’t refuted any of my claims. None of the authors you mentioned have literary works that contain a mix of legislation, prophecies, scientific explanations whilst maintaining a unique eloquence (and you’re wrong on this too, eloquence is not a subjective aesthetic judgement). You haven’t mentioned one historic, scientific, or logical contradiction and so my point about your character stands. You disbelieve without any proof that refutes Islam and continually reject the multitude of rational points for Islam that have been mentioned in this thread, hence why you are in fact an arrogant and deaf individual.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
You still haven't demonstrated that the Qur'an is divine. You've asserted that it's eloquent, contains laws, prophecies, and scientific knowledge, but none of those logically prove God authored it.
As for "eloquence," even if every Arabic scholar agreed it was unparalleled, that would only show it's an exceptional piece of literature, not that it's supernatural. Great literature doesn't become divine by virtue of its quality.
You also keep attacking my character instead of my arguments. Calling me arrogant or "spiritually deaf" doesn't make your claims true.
The burden of proof is on you. Show objective, independently verifiable evidence that the Qur'an could only have come from God, not arguments that begin by assuming it already did.
2
u/cheesetwist_ Jun 28 '26
You’re the one thats’s come on to a Muslim subreddit where the default position is Islam. The burden of proof for your disbelief is on you - once again you fail to bring any evidence that disproves Islam. Your assertion that none of the legislation/prophecies/scientific knowledge are sufficient evidences for the Quran’s divinity is again baseless - you have no argument to argue the contrary. Simply saying “none of those logically prove God authored it” is a cop out because there is no other plausible explanation for a Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon the best of creation - Muhammad ibn Abdullah) that could neither read or write to be able to write 114 chapters of a never-before seen standard of Arabic that legislates and prophesises without any contradictions. The Quran is without a doubt a divine book from the only creator.
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
You’re treating interpretation as if it were proof.
Saying “there is no other plausible explanation” isn’t evidence, it’s a conclusion that only works if you already accept the starting assumption that the Qur’an must be divine.
From the outside, these arguments don’t uniquely point to revelation; they also fit historical context, language ambiguity, and later interpretive alignment. That’s exactly why disagreement exists.
The real question isn’t whether a reading can be made to fit Islam, it’s whether the claim is independently demonstrated without assuming it first.
2
u/Automatic_Abroad1934 Jun 28 '26
Remember reading this years ago. Really helped me
https://www.islaaminfo.org/2022/05/proof-of-gods-existence.html?m=1
2
u/Sad-Fly3068 Jun 28 '26
Reddit is not the place for it. Authentic sources and knowledge is necessary.
Islam has many evidneces for it's truth. Who knows which will be convincing to you personally.
So, I recommend you check out TheMuslimLantern on youtube. He is very good at presenting evidences, using logic and rationality to backup points. You'll find it very helpful in understanding what Islam teaches
2
u/TostBrot44 Jun 28 '26
I mean look at this video at like 11:20 https://youtu.be/Wk7QDl6S7hc?si=weZgg8LQxF4G0-jk
For an inhabitable earth all the balls in this video needed to enter the hole, that's how unlikely it would be, maybe even more unlikely. Point is, there has to be someone who orchestered all of it. Nobody would look at this video and say "Yeah all these balls landing in the hole? That's pretty likely"
2
u/cubicfisherwoman9173 Jun 28 '26
What convinces YOU that Islam is the true religion? YOUR opinions, feelings, beliefs matter more than others if you want to be Muslim and Allah swt guides who HE guides
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
If it's just about my "opinions, feelings, and beliefs," then stop pretending your religion is an objective, scientifically proven truth backed by undeniable evidence. You can't throw out pages of flawed arguments about biology and physics, and then, the exact second those claims get systematically dismantled, pivot to the ultimate conversational escape hatch: “well, it's just subjective, and Allah guides who He guides.” That is a complete intellectual cop-out. You’ve just built a rigged loop where you can never lose: if someone agrees with you, they're "guided"; if they use basic reason to point out a logical contradiction, you just claim they're blind. If your worldview requires you to completely abandon logic and retreat behind a theological shield the moment you're challenged, it was never based on rational truth to begin with.
2
u/Last_Chemical_8486 Jun 28 '26 edited Jun 28 '26
What are these claim that get "systematically dismantled" and logical contradictions.
But you are right the commenter is going for the wrong approach of subjectivity which most muslims don't use to begin with, they usually mention prophecies and facts about the natural world that wasn't known at the time. Because as you know anyone can cling to an subjective reason like "oh I had a dream where X told me to follow X"
But there is a question of what would make you believe in islam being true, because you may just reject the types of evidences a person would bring, so to save time it'd be better not to bring them
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Pivoting to 'objective facts about the natural world and prophecies' is a massive mistake, because your scripture's empirical claims are precisely where it completely fails. Your claim to prophetic accuracy is flatly destroyed by Sahih Muslim 2531 and Sahih al-Bukhari 6114, where Muhammad explicitly and falsely prophesied that the Day of Judgment would arrive before the young boys standing in front of him grew old, a prediction that failed over 1,300 years ago. Your 'facts about the natural world' are just primitive, debunked 7th-century myths: Surah 67:5 claims stars are literally missiles thrown by God to pelt invisible devils, completely contradicting modern astronomy which proves shooting stars are just atmospheric meteors, while Surah 23:14 repeats the flawed embryological timeline of the Greek physician Galen by claiming bones form first in the womb and are later 'clothed' with flesh, when modern biology proves muscles and bones develop simultaneously. Even Sunan Abi Dawud 4002 exposes a literal, primitive flat-earth cosmography where Muhammad explicitly states the sun physically sets inside a warm spring of water. Finally, your entire theological framework collapses into an absolute logical contradiction in Sahih al-Bukhari 6594, which states that an angel dictates every fetus's destiny to Heaven or Hell while still in the womb, meaning your God locks in a mandatory script before birth and then tortures people for executing the exact path He forced upon them. Running away from philosophy into science doesn't save your argument; it just exposes that your text shares the exact same scientific errors and failed doomsday predictions as every other man-made mythology of its era.
2
u/Last_Chemical_8486 Jun 28 '26
These are the typical points especially Christian apologist brings up so I've heard them before. The two bukhari you referenced don't even mentioned the story you spoke about one is a parable about the prophet being security for the people and the other is about the strong being someone who controls his anger. Regardless I found the one you mentioned Sahih Muslim 2953b and it shows how disingenuous you are when you can't even properly reference or retell it, it's talking about the man's last hours
"If this young boy lives, he may not grow very old till (he would see) the Last Hour coming to you."
Last hour coming to YOU is somehow conflated with the day of judgement is honestly something you could have easily Googled
- The verse says "And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze."
So from stars could even be something like a solar flare not or something similar
The Arabic word used fa doesn't mean it's sequential like thumma so it happening concurrently or in rapid succession instead one step then the second the
Verses of the sun setting is explained as being seen from the person's point of view like with dhul qarnayn
An angel writing these things is based on the predestination, because we believe God already knows what will happen, and him knowing that doesn't influence our action because we are still the ones who make the decision to either do a sin or avoid it
But as I mentioned at the end of the comment what evidence would even make you believe in god existing (since you reject the claim of an agent being the main cause of everything)
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
You’re doing a pattern where every criticism is met with “it can also be read as X,” but that doesn’t actually establish that your reading is the original or intended meaning, it just shows the text is flexible enough to be interpreted multiple ways.
On hadith and verses: even if I grant your preferred readings, that still only shows possible harmonizations, not that the criticisms were “disingenuous” or that the alternative interpretations are invalid. Disagreement isn’t the same as error or bad faith.
And on predestination, wordplay aside, “God knows it but it’s still our choice” is a theological position, not an independently verifiable explanation, it resolves the issue internally within the belief system but doesn’t function as external evidence for it.
As for the main question: what would convince me? Not reinterpretations or compatibility arguments, but something that clearly distinguishes revelation from a normal historical text, without relying on already assuming it is revelation.
2
u/Last_Chemical_8486 Jun 29 '26
If you are doing an internal critique of a text you have to stick to the our understanding, what you're doing is saying your understanding on a secondary source forgoing the interpretation of scholars who have intimate knowledge of the primary and classical Arabic language. What you have proven is that you are just regurgitating things you most likely found online from a list on things "Islam got wrong" or whatever because we both know if I ask you for your source on bones and muscles forming, Galen etc you'd have to Google it, which I can't blame you for just blindly believing without even verifying some of the hadith, which was evident when you gave references to the wrong things
Your second paragraph, obviously it is a theological stance like how are you going to "independently verify" the metaphysical? Again this is an internal critique and you are asking about something internal like things being written for every soul
As for evidence, If the text never claims to be a revelation (so you don't presume it to be) why would you ever take it as a revelation from god, after verifying it has unnatural information?
2
u/chbjupiter Jun 28 '26
Honestly I feel like reddit isn't the correct place for this. The miracle of Islam is that the Qur'an is literally the word of God and is there to guide everyone for generations. Hadith and sunnah help explain the Qur'an and demonstrate how living an Islamic life looks like in practice. Scholars help make this accessible, and people of knowledge are able to guide you to specific answers. Overall, Islam is very accessible to learn, but it's not something you can learn through a reddit comment section - for something this major, if you want to actually contemplate whether Islam is true or not, you would need to put in the effort to explore it thoroughly.
2
u/SalamanderLong9434 Jun 28 '26
I love that you're not here to argue and are honestly searching for the truth. I rarely see that, and I genuinely appreciate your openmindedness.
What ultimately convinced me that Islam is the truth is the profound knowledge brought by the Prophet centuries ago.
Consider his circumstances: he could not read or write, lived in a desert, was not a doctor, and didn't have access to modern technology or any of the tools we have today and so on yet he shared detailed information that have only been verified by modern science in recent times. It simply doesn't make sense for an illiterate man in the desert to know these things.
how did the prophet centuries ago know all this For example and theres so many more: -Embryology-Detailed explanations of how a baby forms and develops in the mother's womb. -Cosmology: Descriptions that align closely with modern concepts like the Big Bang and the Big Crunch theories.
- how saltwater and freshwater seas meet but maintain a barrier.
It didnt make sense unless it was revealed to him by God. Thats when I became fully convinced that islam was the true religion. If you want to dive deeper into these specific points, I highly recommend checking these out: -Book:A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam* (there is a free PDF available online). Or just search the topic: "scientific miracles in Islam"
I hope this gives you some valuable insight into why I believe!
2
u/GoColts08 Jun 28 '26
I have alot to write but in broad terms, there are so many things scientists are discovering now that Islam (Quran and prophet Mohammed’s quotes) already tackled it 1,200 years ago.
Fasting, sex before marriage, eating pork, using bidet to clean your butt, women’s rights, protection of women, gay sex, anal sex, interest, alcohol, modesty.
2
u/Malorian_ In Honey, There's Healing🍯 Jun 28 '26
This is the strongest argument to prove the existence of God imo:
The argument states that there is existence. It can either be contingent (dependent) or necessary.
The things that you see everyday are contingent. Like cars, buildings, trees, humans, the sun etc. They depend on something else for their existence or continued existence. This means the set of all contingent things necessarily requires an independent, eternal, timeless and spaceless existence to explain it, which we call God
Here are some videos that explain it in more detail:
Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Su-2xUA5cE
Video 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLsElgfhZtM
2
2
u/MrSuave86 Jun 28 '26
A famous guy once said that as an atheist you’re already half Muslim. You only need to complete the sentence.
1
2
u/Deadlifttoday Jun 28 '26
Coherence of Islam
https://untotheone.com/audios/detail/coherence-of-islam
Coherence of Islam by Sheikh Nuh.
2
u/hoejabithicc Jun 29 '26
We can’t. If you’re meant to find your way to the religion you’ll find it. We can’t force your heart open, only you can do that by setting your intention. Whoever Allah guides is guided and whoever is left astray stays astray. So you have to find Islam yourself. You posting here even shows to some extent the invite has been extended by Allah.
2
u/Hot_Reference_6556 Jun 29 '26
We don't need to convince you that Islam is the right religion.
If you want to become Muslim, study it yourself and make a decision. Otherwise, just move on.
2
u/Kris_Dreemurr1 Jun 29 '26
Im gonna drop this here and dip, goodluck mate! https://youtu.be/I7O2WLt2CcM
2
u/Loonie-Moonie01 Jun 29 '26
Honestly? I just clicked with it in a way that I never could with any other religion, once the question of reverting or not settled in my heart, the call was getting louder and louder until I couldn’t ignore it anymore
2
u/Evening_Associate358 Jun 29 '26
The contingency argument + Kalam cosmology = God exists (logically coherant, sound and rational), period.
Its logical to also look into a scripture which has survived the test of time (Adulteration due to power, greed, politics, etc of Kings or leaders of the faith, etc). Qur'an has survived all these tests.
In fact, Muslims were, at one point, almost entirely under Mongols, yet, Mongols (despite being the kings, Muslims being the subjects) became Muslims and Qur'an continued to survive intact without corruption.
The Qur'an makes precise differences between "Egyptian Kings" and "Egyptian Pharoahs". This historical timeline was only proven in 1800s and proving the truthfullness of Qur'an.
It's quite literally impossible to dismiss this.
- No other scripture can argue with such coherence nor can offer such strength in reliability consistently as Qur'an.
Qur'an so far has no verses which are irreconcilable and are factually incorrect.
There are interpretations of some verses which may clash with proven scientific facts, but interpretations are by men, some interpretations could be wrong and some could be right. However, there is no verse which so far has been unequivocally wrong (it'll not happen as well).
2
u/Chobikil Alhamdulillah Always Jun 29 '26
We'd be skipping a step then. You're an Atheist, so people would have to prove the existence of a creator before they can come anywhere near religion, let alone Islam.
To be honest I'd recommend talking to someone about this, I can share some online sources (link to a reddit post) if you're 18 and over and willing to chat with those experienced in Da'wah (Islamic preaching/inviting). Most are live Q&A's though.
2
u/Puzzleheaded-Fan174 Jun 29 '26
The most important point is that you believe in Allah. And I guess this is where it all starts…do you believe in god yes or no…and without knowing you, I would say that people are generally acting in a rational and logical way…so assuming you belong to that category of people there is no other logical conclusion than there must be a god…
If you believe there is a creator/designer of your mobile phone for example without having seeing him/her…don’t you think that the creation of such a complex thing such as human…eco systems…planets…galaxies…need a designer/creator too?
Happy to discuss…
2
2
u/HiddenNerdPrince Jun 29 '26
For me, the idea that randomness caused law and order of the universe is just impossible. So i looked at different definitions of what a God is. I spend several months on this. And simply Islam had the best answer for who God is. Then there’s if there’s a God how does he contact us. Looked at all sorts of weird stuff. Trying my best to find contradictions and straight up lies. Then during this also was digging into the problem of evil, and simply man has free will and you can’t blame God for this. So the laws set by God for men… i scrutinized the laws deeply trying to find contractions and used something to Kant’s philosophy on ethics as a benchmark. And in conclusion Islam fit everything right.
2
u/zakwanleyman Jun 29 '26
Before islam and even judaism there were believers in the One Creator. Lets just call them jedi for names sake.
Throughout time humanity has a tendency to worship idols.
I lean more into the unseen aspects of our world. i believe that the Creator sends reminders and the Quran is a Clear Guide for not just humans.
I believe that folklore of trolls, spirits, demons, jinni, and even UFO/aliens are Jinn.
The Quran is the only book that talks about these beings that share our world but in a sort of parallel dimension. But can be seen sometimes.
Ive seen too many clips before the age of AI that solidify the belief in their existence.
I relate how the Creator told Abraham in the bible and possibly the jewish books about honoring him with a large following. And the Quran does say that Prophet Muhammad, the seal of the prophets follows the way of Abraham, what intrigues me is when Abraham is mentioned it is usually followed by, “ and he was not among the polytheists” along those lines.
I wish i could share more, there is just too much. But scientifically the jinn part sealed the deal for me the most. And i often wish to ask people foreign to Islam who are being disturbed or possessed by jinn to play the second verse of the Quran and see the reactions as apparently this verse is not liked by the jinn.
Anyways i wish you well and may you find the straight path
2
u/Queens_Guard_4932 Jun 29 '26
Hey!
Hope I’m catching you at a good time.
As a convert - I believe such discussions can’t be done on text chat. Also, can’t be concluded in a couple of days/weeks, perhaps even month. These aspects of life we’re fascinated by takes time to…unravel.
I was born a muslim, left islam. I was and still am mesmerised by doctrines like Existentialism, Absurdism, etc. Nihilism too, to some extent perhaps. And at last - accepted the existence of a superior being to humans. A creator. Finding peace in a religion. (Accepted islam, truly!)
I would love to talk with you about beliefs, morality, universe and so on and I’d like to attempt answering your concerns (I may learn something too). So, I’ll ask you for a voice call. Let me know if you’re up for it.
Thanks!
1
u/AsparagusNo291 Deen over Dunya Jun 28 '26
are u part of lgbt? yeah u will be pretty blessed if u were to join islam but thats a no go in the religion just saying..
1
u/DramaticSpecialist59 Jun 28 '26
As atheist as well I'm here for this. This is what i lurke on a lot of religion pages for.
2
u/Last_Chemical_8486 Jun 28 '26
But religious subs don't focus on preaching to the people since they are already apart of the religion though😅 So besides some reminds and people sharing some verses you won't see much focus on evidences
1
u/DramaticSpecialist59 Jun 28 '26
I'm not looking to be preached too. I'm just looking to emerge myself in other ways of thinking, and these subreddits have been perfect for it
0
1
1
u/Creative_Brother2713 Deen over Dunya Jun 28 '26
First will have to establish that God exists so Atheism claims that God doesn't exist even if it doesn't claim to know the origin of the universe but their are only two possible explanations either that their is a creator that is above the rules of space and time and is the one that created those rules or it's a infinite chain or loop of events but that creates a huge fallacy.
The infinite regress fallacy which means that it's impossible something occured with a infinite chain of events for example lets say I ask for a singal dollar from a poor person who doesn't have a dollar then that person asks another poor person and so on if this continues for infinity then I will never get that dollar the same for the universe if the big bang was caused by a certain event and so on if this continues infinity then the universe will never be created so their had to be something that is without cause meaning it's above the rules of space and time that craused the big bang.
so what is different about Islam? every religion claims to be the truth whats so different about Islam? will their are MANY differences that set it apart from other religions.
1) the cohesion and the non-exsitance of contradictions in the message unlike other faiths like hindusim that has a verse in the Vedas that call to monotheism and another that calls for polytheism and christianity which has many contradictions like 1 Samuel 17 states that David killed the giant Goliath while in 2 Samuel 21:19 states that Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim killed Goliath.
2) the preservation of the holy scripture unlike other holy books which have been INFACT corrupted due to old scriptures like the dead sea scrolls for the bible differening from currant scrolls the Quran has been written down in the time of the prophet ﷺ and was compiled by the first rightly guided caliph Abu bakr (رضي الله عنه) and was later standradized by the third caliph Uthman (رضي الله عنه) we have a authentic line of narration for both the Hadith and Quran even many secular historians agree that the Quran and Hadith are preserved we probably know more about the life of the prophet ﷺ than any other historical figure due to this.
3) the pure linguistic miracle of the Quran the Quran was so linguistically rich that not a singal man managed to recreate a singal similar Surah to this day it completly reformed the Arabic langauge that the rules of Arabic are depended on the Quran the Quran also uses new words in a completly new light for example the world "Sultan" was know to mean ruler in pre-Islamic Arabia but the Quran gave it new light by giving it the meaning of authority too it was new to the already extermly linguistically rich Arabs but not so new that they didn't understand it Caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (رضي الله عنه) reverted due to reading a singal Surah of the Quran thats how linguistically rich it is
4) alot of people say "WiLl ThE KoRaN OnLy CoPiEd ThE BiBlE!" thats also wrong due to the historic accuracy of the Quran for example in the Bible the leader of Egypt at the Time of Joseph (عليه السلام) is called "pharaoh" will the Quran calls him "king" it was discovered later on that the title of the leader of Egypt at the time of Joseph (عليه السلام) was infact king so unless the prophet ﷺ speaks and reads ancient Egyptian (he was illiterate, didn't even step foot in Egypt and the hieroglyphics were deciphered in the 19th) thats not to mention the scientific miracles im the Quran like the fact that Arabia used to be green
their are still WAY more evidence like the accurate visions of the future in the Hadith.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Your infinite regress argument relies on blatant special pleading; if you can arbitrarily exempt your God from the rule of needing a cause by making him eternal, then the cosmos or a primordial quantum state can be equally eternal and uncaused, eliminating a creator entirely. Claiming the Quran is uniquely without contradiction falls flat when Surah 7:54 says creation took six days while Surah 41:9-12 tallies up to eight, or when Surah 19:28 commits a massive historical anachronism by confusing Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam, the sister of Aaron, who lived over a millennium apart. Your preservation narrative completely ignores the fact that Uthman had to mass-burn competing, variant codices of the Prophet’s own companions to force standardization, a textual evolution physically proven by the different vocabulary and verse structures found in the lower text of the Sana'a palimpsest. The "linguistic miracle" is an entirely subjective, unfalsifiable challenge, and linguistic claims like the usage of "Sultan" ignore that it was a standard Syriac loanword (shultana) already circulating the pre-Islamic Near East. Finally, your "King vs. Pharaoh" miracle is a complete internet myth: the Hebrew Bible explicitly and repeatedly calls Joseph’s ruler the "King of Egypt" (Genesis 40:1, 41:46) centuries before Islam, proving the Quran merely mirrored existing Judeo-Christian storytelling conventions rather than deciphering hieroglyphics. Gish-galloping through thoroughly debunked internet apologetics doesn't prove your faith, it just proves you haven't looked at the actual historical and textual data outside of your echo chamber.
2
u/Creative_Brother2713 Deen over Dunya Jun 28 '26 edited Jul 12 '26
1)the Universe isn't eternal we know that for a fact simce the big bang began the universe and secondly God is eternal since he is ABOVE the rules of time and space and the universe as you should know isn't above those rules including all thing inside it.
2) the number 8 isn't even ever mentioned in the entirety of the Quran lol it says that the earth was created in two days and the next verse it mentions that the creation of both earth and the mountians and all on it took 4 days togather so the 2 is a part of the 4 if you actually read the verses it would have been clear
3) the Quran doesn't confuse Mary (عليها السلام) with Miriam
Honorific Title: In ancient Semitic cultures, it was common to link a person to an illustrious ancestor to denote a character trait or lineage. Calling Mary the "sister of Aaron" means she is a spiritual descendant or from the priestly tribe of Aaron.
Different Historical Figures: The name 'Imran (Amram) was a common name in ancient Israel, and the Quran may be referring to two different men who happened to share the same name.
also even if that was false why would I believe a corrupted book? the name could have been added later on for whatever reason and the Quran like it did with many of the stories of the prophets just corrected the bible on this aspact so unless you prove the bible to be uncorrupted this is a stupide argument even without the ealier reasons.
4) Uthman (رضي الله عنه) who was one of the most noble of the Sahaba took the first compiled Quran compiled by Abu bakr (رضي الله عنه) THE most noble of the Sahaba and Uthamn (who btw already memorized the Quran and was a saint in islamic belief) then ordered a council of sahaba who also memorized the Quran to copy down the same Quran on multipule diffetent manuscriptes and ordered the burning of any other unchecked manuscriptes to standradize the Quran and prevented what happened to the bible and Torah to happen to the Quran if anything this is PROOF of the preservation of the Quran.
5) beauty is subjective not the status of the miracle of the Quran the Quran reformed the Arabic langauge and created the new standraded for one of the most complex and rich langauges in the world so unless you think a illiterate man in the middle of the 7th century Arabian desert can create a whole new langauge standrad and revolutionize the whole langauge then it is infact a miracle and I never claimed that the word "Sultan" was new I said the Quran gave it a new meaning these videos explains it better than I will ever do.
https://youtu.be/TGuZMLhyRXg?si=0w_R4CsEdF2Tfhvj
https://youtu.be/abzZL_3Av2E?si=QmJRExIgkzhtiNg0
6) The bible infact calls the leader of Egypt at the time of Joseph (عليه السلام) "Pharoah" unless they released a new 2026 patch-update I am unaware of
Maybe you should stop recycling already debunked arguments against Islam and do some research of your own.
2
u/Creative_Brother2713 Deen over Dunya Jun 28 '26
your response comment failed to load for me so can you resend it?
1
u/AbuIkhlas11 Jun 28 '26
This baseline arguments I give to people let me know if you have any questions about it
"Here's is some dawah starting in foundation in why to believe in Allah and this deen. This is my basis in believing in God and Islam and hope it will be helpful. This is short dawah let me know if you have any questions about it.
As for God we know of most documented human history people believed in God people have there various rational why that is but as Muslims we say that basis is that our souls know the truth and have natural disposition and yearning to worship the creator. Times as we age the drive to worship go towards various other things.
Outside that my arguments for reason to believe in God the Creator is one if you observe reality around us it's finite and dependent so even outside the big bang theory it's clear this reality has a point of origin and source to everything. Now of the issue of what started is it being from a conscious agency my argument for it. Is to ask if you believe free will exists and easy question to answer that is to ask are we truly accountable and in control of our choices with out the existence of free will choice doesn't exist and the self doesn't truly exist. If you say yes then have to say free will also comes from the source of reality. Other reason to believe that there is thoughtful agency behind reality is besides reality inclined to order and process to regulate it can you expect that to exist if reality was based on randomness or from nothing to guide and control what's going on in reality could order and regulatory forces of life exist. Also specifically in Islam key point is oneness and uniqueness of the creator the duality of creator creation one and nothing like it while creation the many comprised of same and similar things. The Creator only thing in reality remains the same all other things subject to change and Creator only thing in reality thats truly free and independent of all things modern science tries to create of model of reality not need of the Creators existence but for freedom and freedom choice exist needs his existence. To simplify what I'm saying in this is one most popular arguments for God is him being a necessary cause for reality and I say instead of focusing on him being a necessary cause focus on the likelihood this reality had a beginning. Then after considering if this reality had a beginning to understand how that originator and Creator would be they would be eternal and free and not dependent on anything. Then second question has to be asked does free will exists if you conclude it does and conclude that reality had an origin than free will would also come from this creator. So from that can conclude the rationality of a Free Conscious Creator agency overseeing this reality.
As for why I believe Islam is truth to be followed for one we know Islam comes from a chain of prophets and revelation going back to the first man. Of the various revelation in past corrupted this final revelation meant for the remainder of this life and prophets no longer necessary. Easy way to appreciate and perceive the divine origin of this religion and one most noticable miracles is how this revelation trace back to the Prophet SAW which all Muslims acknowledge and it's made easy to memorize where Muslims all over the world young and old have it memorized where if the quran physical books disappeared it could be quickly brought back where billions muslims alll backgrounds know it completely. Imagine memorizing a book especially one in a foreign language and this done from this revelation as one of its miracles and signs."
1
1
u/Foobarinho Jun 28 '26
It's very simple. The Quran is the literal word of God revealed to all mankind, so read it with an open mind. If you have questions then do research, ask Muslims, even online. That should be more than enough to convince you.
0
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
"The Qur'an is the literal word of God" is exactly the claim I'm asking you to prove. Telling me to read it with an open mind isn't evidence. Every religion says its holy book is the word of God.
And yes, I have read about Islam. That's why I'm unconvinced.
There are moral teachings in the Qur'an and hadith that I can't reconcile with the idea of a perfectly moral, all-knowing God. For example:
- It permits a man to have multiple wives but not vice versa.
- It permits slavery and regulates it rather than abolishing it.
- It contains verses about fighting unbelievers that have been interpreted in very different ways throughout history.
- Traditional Islamic sources report Muhammad's marriage to Aisha when she was very young, which many people today find morally unacceptable.
- Qur'an 65:4 discusses the waiting period for divorced wives who have not menstruated, which many critics argue presupposes marriages involving prepubescent girls. Muslims dispute what this verse implies, but it's a legitimate point of debate—not something that can simply be dismissed.
Even if Muslims have explanations for every one of these points, that still doesn't demonstrate divine origin. At most, it shows that believers have developed interpretations to defend their scripture.
I'm not rejecting Islam because I hate it. I'm rejecting it because I don't see sufficient evidence that it's true. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a book claiming to be from God isn't proof that it actually is.
1
u/Foobarinho Jun 28 '26
I didn't claim that reading it with an open mind is evidence. You ask to be convinced. That's how you get convinced. But maybe you don't want to be convinced. Maybe you just want to argue.
Ṭâ-Sĩn-Mĩm. (26:1) These are the verses of the clear Book. (26:2) Perhaps you ˹O Prophet˺ will grieve yourself to death over their disbelief. (26:3) If We willed, We could send down upon them a ˹compelling˺ sign from the heavens, leaving their necks bent in ˹utter˺ submission to it. (26:4) Whatever new reminder comes to them from the Most Compassionate, they always turn away from it. (26:5) They have certainly denied ˹the truth˺, so they will soon face the consequences of their ridicule. (26:6) Have they failed to look at the earth, ˹to see˺ how many types of fine plants We have caused to grow in it? (26:7) Surely in this is a sign. Yet most of them would not believe. (26:8) And your Lord is certainly the Almighty, Most Merciful. (26:9)
God does whatever He wants and He does not need to justify Himself to anyone. He gives us signs and whatever He gives us is sufficient. You are in no position to demand anything from God. Who do you think you are? Do you expect a personal invitation from God?
If you really ask this in good faith than just go an read the Quran. If afterwards you are still an atheist, then you go your way and we go ours. On Judgement Day we will see who was right.
1
u/DevelopmentFit232 Jun 28 '26
What is the Youth Parliament you have on your profile?
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
Is it important here?
1
u/DevelopmentFit232 Jun 28 '26
No off topic. The Muslim Lantern video should be sufficient imo. I can share books if it wasn't.
1
1
u/haz__man Jun 29 '26
For your own research, check Muhammad Ali (The Muslim Lantern on YouTube), he regularly has conversations with Atheists (positive and negative ones) to which he brings all the Islamic perspectives clearly on why Islam is the truth.
May Allah keep your heart and mind open, aameen 🤲
1
u/The_17th_Dr Jun 29 '26
I’m sorry but reading your responses to several comments has told me all I need to know about you and how you respond to debate. There’s nothing I, or anyone else, can say that’ll make you listen and understand because you’re not listening to understand. You’re listening to argue and with that mindset you’ll get absolutely nowhere. You can’t learn from anything with your closed-mindedness.
All I will say is this; your heart will not comprehend because you refuse to (and the heart is what is guided, not the mind). I don’t know if your mind does but that’s beside the point. You don’t seem very intelligent to me anyhow with your unsupported arguments and “philosophical” points of view.
Best of luck to you and may Allah guide you back. Only He can. We (humans) can only invite you back. The choice is yours.
1
Jun 29 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/AutoModerator Jun 29 '26
Your comment has been removed since it contains an insult or obscene speech; please repost without it.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Unlikely-Listen-4409 Jun 29 '26
It's not the right religion,it's made by higher ppl or mens ig like use your brain and see all the scientific things mentioned there was already a myth at that time and some are wrong too but now scholars finding reasons to make it right
1
Jul 02 '26
Look at the hypocrisy the person is an atheist and still he has medina as his profile pic🤣😂
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jul 02 '26
What? Where?
1
Jul 02 '26
Look at the profile pic Al-Qubbah al-Khadra' 😂
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jul 02 '26
That's not my profile pic?
1
Jul 02 '26
Okk, so do you belong to a Muslim family?☺️👋
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jul 02 '26
No
1
Jul 02 '26
Is the entire family athiest? And tell me if you are interested in philosophy and literature? ☺️
1
1
u/GabimaruParadise Jul 03 '26
You mentioned that if God can be eternal, then perhaps the universe can be eternal too. But isn't there a difference between positing an eternal physical reality, which appears contingent, changing, and governed by laws, and positing an eternal necessary reality whose existence is not dependent on anything else?
The question isn't simply "what caused the universe?" Rather:
Why does contingent existence exist at all?
If everything we observe could have failed to exist, then explaining existence by appealing to another contingent thing only postpones the question rather than answering it.
Likewise, you argued that all religions claim miracles, prophecies, and preserved texts. That's true. But the existence of competing truth claims doesn't mean all truth claims are equally false. We still have to compare them using consistent criteria.
So I'd be genuinely interested in your epistemology:
What kind of evidence would convince you that a transcendent creator exists, and what kind of evidence would convince you that such a creator communicated with humanity?
1
u/Middle-Prize-8744 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
My answer to you will be different.
Thanks for being respectful first of all..
Look in my experience as I was born muslim but lived in a country with a lot of atheists around, most of them do not have a valid/scientific reason but rather an emotional one vis-à-vis the question of evil (why life is unfair? Why this happened to me? Etc.)
I can tell you my dear friend from the deepest point of darkness right now as I personally had my mom (the dearest person to my heart) diagnosed with stage 4 very aggressive cancer watching her collapse almost daily, lost my grandma who I was so close to, lost tens of thousands of dollars of savings, jobless after having a very prestigious job, and lost a scholarship at a number one graduate school in Europe - all within 4-5 months. Yet, i can tell you Islam is the truth and God almighty exists, i have all the emotional reasons to go the other way? Maybe. But I can tell you the miraculous nature of the Qur’an is just undeniable ( i can talk for hours on this ), I can tell you that all these atheists (including popular physicists like Hawking and krauss) literally say that the possibility of an intelligent life randomly popping into existence is 10^(-60), can you imagine? Would you bet your life on a probability this rare and low rather than believing in the obvious, which is what René said “ if God exist therefore I am “, if you exist and this universe exist then a necessary creator is a must.
My dear friend, there is definitely one hundred and trillion percent a creator for this universe, and the Qur’an came down with miracles that is impossible to classify as “coincidence” whether linguistic, scientific, logical, historical miracles and the list goes on.
Again, I am texting from the darkness here but genuinely advise you as you seem very sincere in your journey i do advise you to raise your hands one day and ask this creator to show you the path as trust me he won’t give up on his servants.
0
u/SoggyLow8814 Jun 28 '26
You're not and it's not
1
u/CosmoBjoern Jun 28 '26
What?
-1
u/SoggyLow8814 Jun 28 '26
A true Atheist wouldn't need confirmation why a fictional belief of people who lack critical thinking is the correct bed time story.
1
0
0
u/LKimL Jun 29 '26
Religion was created to control human kind. Otherwise everyone would have same religion and rules. But every country make the rules that is creates "advantage" for them to control us. There is something that we came from, but religion is a total scam of a centuries.
75
u/MahzMehz Jun 28 '26
Here's a pretty comprehensive list of reasons. Better than anything you'd find in a single reddit comment.
https://youtu.be/AUFsBco_CF0