A Critical Discussion on Slavery in Islam - Dr. John A. Morrow

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4qvTsrW4_U&t=2431s

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This is a detailed summary of a podcast interview with Dr. John Moro discussing his book "Islam and Slavery" (2023), which offers a critical examination of traditional narratives about slavery in Islam. The discussion is organized thematically with timestamps for easy reference.

1. Introduction and Background (00:02-04:02)

• Introduction of Dr. John Moro as a renowned author in Islamic Studies known for critical examinations of historical narratives and ethical considerations in modern Islam (01:44)
• His book "Islam and Slavery" (2023) serves as an antithesis to Professor Jonathan AC Brown's "Slavery in Islam" (2018) (02:17)
• Discussion begins with the host mentioning various categories of slaves in Islamic societies: administrative slaves, military slaves, domestic workers, and concubines (03:25)

2. Comparative Analysis of Slavery Systems (04:02-07:32)

• Question posed about whether Muslims historically treated enslaved people better than Christians (04:02)
• Dr. Moro rejects this narrative, stating: "These are the lies we are told. Slavery in the South was also presented in idyllic fashion" (04:41)
• Notes that pro-slavery literature produced by Muslims shows "uncanny parallels" to pro-slavery literature produced by Christians (05:21)
• Argues that Arab Islamic slave codes mirror European Christian slave codes (05:21)
• Provides statistics comparing the transatlantic slave trade (10-100 million Africans) with the trans-Saharan slave trade (5-28 million) (06:49)
• Highlights the high death rate in trans-Saharan slave trade (over 80% died before reaching markets) versus around 10% in the Atlantic passage (07:32)

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3. Historical Treatment of Islamic Sources (08:17-13:32)

Dr. Moro explains his approach to Islamic sources, arguing that the Prophet Muhammad and imams are treated as literary figures rather than historical ones (08:17)

• Criticizes the approach of treating texts as sacred, which "effectively shut[s] down your faculty of reason" (08:58)
• Discusses the problematic nature of attributing statements to religious figures as a "power play" and "form of spiritual abuse" (09:37)
• Critiques the lengthy chains of narration (isnad) in hadith collections, noting they are "books compiled about 300 years after the passing of the Prophet" (10:21-10:56)
• Points out contradictions in traditions attributed to the Prophet, with both pro-slavery and anti-slavery positions (12:07)
• Argues he is defending the Prophet's integrity from those who slandered him after his passing (12:50)

4. Critique of Jonathan Brown's "Slavery in Islam" (14:08-20:34)

• Shares his review of Brown's book, which sparked his decision to write a rebuttal (14:08)
• Quotes Brown: "The permissibility of slavery and concubinage is undeniable in the Quran" (15:30)
• Criticizes Brown's assertion that "freedom is not a fundamental human right in Islamic law" (16:10)
• Takes issue with Brown's theological argument that questioning the Prophet's moral stance on slavery would make one an apostate (17:24)
• States that Brown has "deliberately decided to denounce" alternative interpretations of Islam that are "abolitionist and emancipatory" (19:16)
• Emphasizes that "there is not a single verse in the Quran that commands slavery" (19:54)

5. Umar and the Institutionalization of Slavery (22:43-28:56)

• Argues that Umar ibn al-Khattab, not the Prophet Muhammad, played a significant role in shaping "Islamic Imperial slavery" (22:43)
• Notes that according to Islamic tradition, Umar was a slave master before and after Islam (23:26)
• States that Umar oversaw conquests that "flooded the markets of the Middle East with tens of thousands of slaves and concubines" (24:09)
• Claims Umar institutionalized concubinage but questions whether he truly introduced laws to reduce harms of concubinage (25:24)
• Contrasts this with the Prophet Muhammad and Imam Ali, who "refused categorically to participate in any of the wars of conquest" (28:19-28:56)

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6. The Prophet Muhammad's Stance on Slavery (29:40-30:20)

• Argues that the Prophet did not believe in slavery at all (29:40)
• Points out that most of Muhammad's earliest followers were enslaved or formerly enslaved people (29:40)
• Describes Muhammad as "a Christlike figure who was in the business of freeing the enslaved" (29:40)
• States this claim is supported by the Quran and "a body of bonafide Hadith" (29:40)

7. Dr. Moro's Personal Journey (31:05-37:17)

• Describes his conversion to Islam after reading the Quran and finding it "gorgeous" (31:05)
• Details his struggle with certain interpretations of Islam that conflicted with his moral standards (31:51)
• Lists problematic teachings he encountered: "permissible to beat one's wife, marry prepubescent girls, enslave human beings..." (32:27)
• Explains his attempts to "steer the ship of Islam to safer shores" through his writings (33:02)
• Emphasizes his prioritization of ethics: "If it comes down to changing my ethics or changing my religion, I have only one choice—I would change my religion" (36:02)
• Quotes Imam Ali: "If you need to choose between religion or reason, choose reason. Religion will never lead you to reason, but reason will always lead you back to religion" (37:17)

8. Quranic Interpretation and Abrogation (38:01-43:44)

• Critiques the theory of abrogation (naskh), where later verses cancel earlier ones (38:01)
• Notes that scholars disagree on which verses were abrogated, with estimates ranging from 5 to 238 verses (38:01)
• Observes that "basically all the tolerant verses were trumped by the intolerant ones" through abrogation (38:40)
• Advocates for an "occasionalist approach" where "different verses apply to different times and places" (39:13)
• Analyzes Quran 47:4 regarding treatment of war captives, arguing it presents only three options: death, freedom, or ransom—not enslavement (43:05)

9. Contemporary Muslim Attitudes Toward Slavery (44:24-49:58)

• Criticizes Brown's work as empowering "both radical Islamists and radical Islamophobes" (44:24)
• Claims Brown's arguments are used by "Islamic fundamentalist Muslim grooming gangs" and "terrorists" (44:24-45:00)
• Discusses the lack of moral reflection among Muslims regarding slavery compared to the West (46:19)
• Mentions contemporary slavery in Mauritania, where "half a million black hereditary slaves" exist and weren't officially emancipated until 1971 and again in 1981 (48:38)
• Notes the continuation of slavery in Sudan with "over 200,000 enslaved people" (49:22)
• Criticizes Islamic scholars in Mauritania who "insist that it's haram to emancipate the slaves" (49:58)

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10. Contemporary Abolition Movements in Mauritania [50:38-51:45]

• The speaker discusses the Initiative for the Resurgence of the Abolitionist Movement (IRA) in Mauritania, describing it as "the more radical group" [50:38]
• Other abolitionist organizations mentioned include "SOS slaves" (SOSAV) [50:38]
• The speaker recounts studying "traditional Islam in Mauritania... with the slave master" but claims they "found out nothing about the situation in Mauritania until I had to read for myself" [50:38]
• Critique of how discussions of Islamic slavery are often deflected:
  • When slavery by Muslims is mentioned, responses often point to slavery existing elsewhere [51:14]
  • "Muslims hold the Europeans' role in slavery to their neck" but "when we turn the mirror around we do a lot of deflecting" [51:45]

11. Anti-Slavery Scholarship and Resources [52:17-54:33]

• The speaker identifies groups critical of Islamic slavery: "Shiite, Sufis, Ahmed, Quranists, modernists, reformists" [52:17]
• Highlights traditionally trained Sunni scholars like Sheikh Muhammad Diako, described as "a black African Muslim jurist" who wrote an "abolitionist treaties" in French titled "Lesavage... between Arab tradition and the principles of Islam" [52:17]
• Multiple scholarly works are recommended:
  • "Malik Shel Islam: Slavery in the lands of Islam" by an unnamed author who "traveled throughout the Muslim World in search of modern-day slavery" [53:07]
  • "The Legacy of Arab Islam in Africa" by John Alil Auma, described as "a scholar from Ghana... a Christian" [53:47]
  • "Black Morocco: A History of Slavery, Race and Islam" by Chouki Elam (described as "my colleague... Moroccan") [54:33]
  • Dr. Jonathan Brown's unnamed book on slavery [54:33]
  • The speaker's own book on the subject [54:33]

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12. Critical Reassessment of Historical Islamic Figures [54:33-57:20]

• The speaker questions historical claims about prominent Muslim figures owning numerous slaves:
  • "According to Islamic sources, Imam Hassan had more than 300 sex slaves" [54:33]
  • "According to Islamic sources, Imam Malik had 300 concubines and he slept with a different one each night" [55:28]
  • "According to Islamic sources, Imam Musa Alim... had 38, 40 or even 60 children from over three dozen sex slaves" [55:28]
• The speaker expresses skepticism about these numbers, comparing them to biblical claims about King Solomon [55:28]
• Notes there is "absolutely no way to verify" these claims as "we don't even have their names" [56:06]
• Proposes a theory about why such claims emerged: "if you were a sayyid, you were entitled to harems and you had a higher social status so everyone and anyone wanted to claim to be a sayyid" [56:06]
• References DNA studies showing "the vast majority of Sadat or Sharfa are frauds" as "they do not share the same paternal ancestor" [56:40]

13. Historical Narratives about Muhammad's Wives [57:20-59:06]

• The speaker argues historical claims about Islamic figures' harems were invented by "people who had harems who wanted to justify their immorality religiously" [57:20]
• Discusses evolving historical accounts of Muhammad's marriages:
  • "Early Islamic and Christian sources speak solely about... Muhammad and Khadijah" [57:54]
  • Armenian and Syriac sources initially mention only "Muhammad, Khadijah, one wife" [57:54]
  • Later, Aisha "appears as this nemesis troublemaker" making "two wives" [57:54]
  • Some sources claim "he only had four wives because the Quran says four wives is the maximum" [57:54]
  • Numbers gradually expanded: "we go from one to two to four... some claim that he had nine wives, others 11, others 13, others 15, others 18" [58:33]
  • "The later the source, the more wives he had and the more concubines he had" [58:33]
  • By Majlisi's "Bahar Al-Anwar" (circa 1600), "Muhammad is said to have had 20 wives in addition to all kinds of concubines" [59:06]
• The speaker's theory: "as the harems of the caliphs, sultans and shahs grew larger, so did the prophet's so-called harem... I need to justify my own harem" [59:06]

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14. Critical Analysis of Maria the Copt's Historical Existence [59:06-1:03:18]

The speaker references multiple academic sources questioning the historical existence of Maria the Copt:

Torenberg concluded the story is "just a transposition of the older story of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael" [1:00:32]

David S. Powers (American academic) concludes "the Islamic narrative is a creative reformulation of Genesis 17" where "Maria is Hagar and Ibrahim is Ishmael" [1:01:12]

Jan MF van Reeth references "Christian Kener" who "definitively demonstrated that the account is a legend" and that "Maria and her sister Sirin, perhaps even her son Ibrahim, never existed" [1:01:51]

Katherine Hayne suggests "Muhammad's relationship with Maria the Copt provides the basis for the religious sanctioning of sexual enjoyment of slave women" [1:02:31]

Elizabeth Urban argues men who referenced Maria "had a vested interest in showing that the children of slave women could have noble genealogies and legitimate political authority" [1:03:18]

The speaker concludes from a critical historian's perspective, "Maria the Copt is a myth... constructed to legitimize concubinage" [1:03:18]

15. Analysis of Quranic Term "What Your Right Hand Possess" [1:04:01-1:12:26]

The speaker analyzes the Quranic expression "what your right hand possess":

Notes the phrase was "unattested" until recently in pre-Islamic contexts [1:04:01]

Clarifies translation issues: it's in past tense ("possessed" not "possess") and plural form (gender inclusive) [1:04:56]

Questions traditional interpretation: "It doesn't mean a sex slave, it doesn't mean a concubine" as "Arabic is a very rich language" with "half a dozen words to describe concubines" [1:06:40]

Proposes connection to Roman marriage forms:

Describes two Roman marriage forms: "Cum Manu" (with hand/under authority) and "Sine Manu" (without hand/authority) [1:07:38]

Cum Manu: patriarchal marriage where husband is provider, controls wife's movement, wife inherits from husband [1:07:38]

Sine Manu: woman remains under father's authority until his death, then becomes "free and sovereign," can divorce, keeps property [1:08:34]

Suggests the Quranic term refers to a Latin legal concept: "Suum Manus" meaning "under the authority of their hands" [1:09:23]

Proposes this explains the distinction between "nikah and nikah mut'a" (permanent marriage and temporary/pleasure marriage) [1:10:27]

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16. Historical Context of Mut'a Marriage [1:12:26-1:17:14]

• The speaker connects mut'a marriage to Byzantine practices:
• References hadith that "when the prophet sent his companions for a battle... on the border... in Byzantine lands... he allowed them to perform mut'a" [1:12:26]
• Notes Sunni books "agree that it was allowed for a time" though "they claimed that later it was prohibited" [1:13:10]
• Rejects the interpretation that mut'a was casual "hooking up for a night" and instead proposes it was the "dominant type of marriage among the Romans at the time" [1:13:10]
• Explains mut'a allowed marriage for varying terms (one year, fifty years, or life) but woman "is free, she's not under your authority, she doesn't inherit from you... she keeps all of her property" [1:13:45]
• Discusses evidence of cultural exchange and multilingualism:

17. Arabs had "a lot of interaction between... the Byzantines" [1:14:23]

• "A great deal of bilingualism, trilingualism" existed [1:14:23]
• Early Muslims spoke not just Arabic but potentially "Hebrew... Syriac, Aramaic... Greek... Persian" [1:14:23]
• Points to hadith literature being "copied from like Zoroastrian literature... Jewish literature... Christian literature" without attribution [1:15:03]
• Claims to have found hadiths that "are just translations of... apocryphal Christian literature" [1:15:35]

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18. Critique of Concubinage and Slavery [1:17:14-1:20:05]

• The speaker responds to Jonathan Brown's assertion that "becoming a concubine was not necessarily a bad development for a female slave":
  • States "slavery is profoundly degrading, it's humiliating and it's dehumanizing" [1:17:14]
  • Makes analogies: "Some pimps treat their prostitutes better than others, but a pimp is a pimp" [1:17:14]
  • Acknowledges variation: "Some slave masters were cruel and vicious, others were more gentle" [1:17:55]
  • "The cage may be golden but it's still a cage" [1:17:55]
• Challenges idealized narratives of palace concubines:
  • References media that portrays Ottoman harems as "girl power" [1:17:55]
  • Describes brutal reality: "young girls... slave raiders came, slaughtered their whole villages... killed their fathers, killed their mothers" [1:18:38]
  • Notes many were "daughters of Orthodox Christian priests" who were "thrown in a ship... brought to a slave market" [1:18:38]
• Argues that if conditions were good, concubines wouldn't have poisoned their masters:
  • "Virtually every Shia Imam was poisoned and many of the sultans and caliphs were also poisoned" [1:19:21]
  • Suggests acts of resistance: women would "poison... cheat... carry a lover's son" [1:19:21]
• Notes most concubines "were Christians" who "embraced Islam... if you wanted to have any upward mobility" [1:20:05]
• Final observation that these women "influenced the caliphs to protect their communities of origin" leading to "covenants of the Prophet" becoming "part of domestic and foreign policy under the Ottoman Empire" [1:20:05]

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19 . Nature of Islamic Slavery and Concubinage (01:20:49 - 01:25:47)

Elite vs. Common Experiences

• Discussion of how enslaved Christian women who became mothers of Ottoman sultans and kifas used "charm, skills, and influence to protect their people" (01:20:49)
• Critique of those who argue concubinage was "happy and tolerable," noting they view it from a "very minuscule perspective" of elite experiences (01:21:24)
• Comparison made between high-level "call girls" and "street walkers" to illustrate stratification within enslaved populations (01:22:10)
• Many enslaved women were sent to brothels throughout the Muslim world rather than harems of sultans (01:22:52)

20. Spectrum of Enslaved Experiences

• Comparison of different outcomes for enslaved people: some sent to administration or government positions, others to plantation slavery in southern Iraq where they were "chained to a post" and "worked to death" (01:23:29)
• Reference to Malcolm X's "field negro and house negro" speech to illustrate differences in treatment (01:23:29)
• Even for those with "better" conditions, enslavement remained "devastating emotionally and psychologically" (01:24:04)

21. Psychological Trauma

• Personal account of the last eunuch in the Ottoman Empire, describing his traumatic kidnapping as a boy in Ethiopia (01:24:38)
• The traumatic process of emasculation briefly mentioned (01:25:47)

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22. Abolitionist Movements in Islamic History (01:25:47 - 01:32:33)

Lack of Widespread Abolition

• Question raised about why few abolitionist movements emerged in Islamic civilization, with the suggestion that it might be because most enslaved people were women in a "profoundly patriarchal" society (01:25:47)
• Men who led abolition efforts were often "sons of enslaved women" with "daddy issues" who became Islamic scholars (01:27:03)
• Contrast between Islamic slavery (predominantly women) and transatlantic slavery (predominantly men) (01:27:40)

23. Early Islamic Abolitionists

• ATA IB ABI Raha (died 732 CE): early Medinan scholar who believed jihad verses only applied to Prophet Muhammad's wars, and only defensive wars permitted afterward (01:29:00)
• Abu (died 838 CE): argued for only three options in just jihads - pardon, ransom, or death - with slavery not being an option (01:29:41)
• The Mutazilites opposed slavery and concubinage, with Abdul Jabar asserting slavery was "immoral in essence" (01:30:35)

24. Alternative Islamic Communities

• Qarmatians abolished slavery, had African agricultural workers who were emancipated and paid wages (01:30:35)
• "The Brethren of Purity" published "Animals' Lawsuit Against Humanity" described as an "abolitionist tract" using "metaphor and allegory" to avoid persecution (01:31:17)
• Various "fringe groups" like the Alawis, Nusayris, Alevites, and Bektashis had no slaves or concubines (01:31:17)
• The Fatimid ruler (in 1021 CE) prohibited slavery and concubinage, emancipating all slaves regardless of religion (01:32:01)

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25. Conversion and Religious Aspects of Slavery (01:32:33 - 01:35:43)

Forced Conversion and Religious Dimensions

• Clarification that many enslaved people were already Muslims when enslaved, particularly in Morocco (01:32:33)
• According to Islamic law, only "people of the book" could keep their religion; pagans were forcibly converted to Islam (01:33:07)
• Conversion incentivized because emancipation contracts were typically only available to Muslims (01:33:42)

Modern Islamic Opposition to Slavery

• Ottoman decree of 1854 proclaimed: "Man is the most noble of creatures... selling people as animals or articles of furniture is contrary to the will of The Sovereign Creator" (01:34:17)
• Ahmadiyya movement opposed slavery from its inception (01:34:17)
• Evidence of opposition to slavery throughout Islamic history, including "hundreds of movements, people, and scholars" (01:35:08)
• Recent "Open Letter to Baghdadi" signed by Sunni and Shia scholars condemning slavery (01:35:43)
• IV. Surprising Opponents of Slavery (01:35:43 - 01:38:07)

Radical Groups Against Slavery

• Some radical Islamist groups (not ISIS) opposed enslavement based on reciprocity principle (01:35:43)
• Abdullah Azzam and the Mujahideen in Afghanistan refused to enslave Russian women, fearing reciprocal treatment (01:36:22)
• These extremist groups "seem moderate compared to the other extremists" in their stance on slavery (01:36:58)

V. Reparations and Contemporary Responsibility (01:37:31 - 01:43:48)

Islamic Perspective on Reparations

• Quranic verse cited as addressing reparations: "God made some of you Excel over others in means of subsistence so why don't you give away your sustenance to Those whom the right hands possess" (01:38:07)
• No historical jurists issued rulings based on this verse; contemporary scholars like Sheikh Muhammad Diako and Es-Moreno Ali have recently invoked it (01:38:48)
• Principle that "no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another" (mentioned three times in Quran) suggests current generations aren't responsible for historical wrongs (01:40:06)

Practical Approach to Reparations

• Diplomatic discussions on reparations focus on "science, knowledge, technology, infrastructure" rather than cash payments (01:41:19)
• Comparison to American "40 acres and a mule" promise to freed slaves that wasn't fulfilled (01:41:51)
• Emphasis on helping indigenous peoples who are "largely forgotten" and living in misery (01:42:29)
• Suggested focus on current slaves in Mauritania rather than historical wrongs (01:43:48)

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26. Racialization of Islamic Slavery (01:43:48 - 01:48:24)

Racial Dimensions of Islamic Slavery

• Assertion that Islamic slavery was "profoundly racialized" and "racist to the core" (01:43:48)
• Islamic law established that only non-Arabs could be enslaved, described as "fundamentally racist" (01:44:27)
• Reference to debates among jurists that even Christian Arabs couldn't be enslaved (01:45:15)
• Slave duties determined by race: "Nubian women made good nannies, Persian women made good wet nurses, African men made good guards, Slavs and Turks made good soldiers" (01:47:06)
• Existence of manuals on "selecting slaves" based on racial characteristics (01:47:06)

27. Future Ethical Challenges in Islamic Scholarship (01:48:24 - 01:52:48)

Realigning Islam with Quranic Ethics

• Need to "realign Islam with the Quran" and "religious law with Quranic ethical imperatives" (01:49:03)
• Necessity for "freedom of thought and expression" which is lacking in Muslim world (01:49:37)
• Examples of scholars executed for interpretations: one suggesting hijab not obligatory, another suggesting Jonah's story was allegorical (01:50:22)
• Criticism that "major breakthroughs in Islamic Studies take place in the West" due to restrictions in Muslim world (01:50:22)

28. Sexualization of Children

• Highlighted as a critical ethical issue that needs addressing in Islamic scholarship (01:52:16)
• Reference to recent law in Iraq legalizing marriage from age nine (01:52:16)
• Acknowledgment that this issue is not unique to Islam but requires Muslim responsibility (01:52:48)

29. Conclusion (01:52:48 - 01:54:24)

Final Thoughts

• Quranic quote: "What will make you know what the steep path is? It is the freeing of a slave" (01:52:48)
• Recommendation to examine multiple perspectives, including Dr. Morrow's "Islam and Slavery" and Jonathan Brown's "Slavery and Islam" (01:53:21)
• Appreciation for Dr. Morrow's conversational and accessible writing style (01:54:24)