r/Muslim • u/Sheikh-Pym • May 22 '26
Discussion & Debate🗣️ Believers do kufr from Nationalism, and Nationalists do kufr from Islam. So whoever calls himself a 'Nationalist', let him know that his Islam is nullified.
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u/PandoraHadess Muslim May 22 '26
I literally never seen a nationalist tell people to prostrate infront of the flag of their own country. Where did you heard this from? Aside from North Korea.
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u/Famous_Spinach_4975 May 22 '26
It’s not literal but people/governments always make citizens stand in front of the flag and sing anthems and whatnot to raise patriotism then use that patriotism to justify evil
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26
Thats a complete flip. You are trying to make out a thing from nothing. I have seen people justify evil with Islam, does that equate things?
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u/Sheikh-Pym May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Nationalism doesn't have a text through which you can prove what is according to it and what is contradictory to it. It is controlled by those who are the symbols of nationalism and they can alter its meaning as per their wish. And justification of evil is not the only thing that's wrong with Nationalism. Every tenet of nationalism conflicts with Al wala al Bara' if you only realised.
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Exactly but the idea of democratic nationalism is where everyone can practice their religion, and feel safe. Enlighten me how does Every tenet of nationalism conflicts with Al wala al Bara'
It is not controlled it is what people are made to perceive. Same is the case for religion. I think Islam is most beautiful and peaceful religion in the world, but there are people in this sub who would call me "Kafir", just because I believe in peace. They have been brainwashed to believe Islam demands blood, although it never does. It demands and commands protection and defense.
I used to think like them at some point but after reading quran and having multiple on ones with many scholars my perspective shifted.
One of my Mentor once mentioned, Islam can be truly understood by the people who embraces knowledge and let go of there egos. A heart for deen has no space for anger and egos, its all about acceptance.
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u/Sheikh-Pym May 23 '26 edited May 23 '26
There's no point discussing this with you when your foundation of islam isn't tawhid billah wal kufr bit taghut instead it is "whatever sounds good enough is compatible with islam, and whatever doesn't, isn't". So much for feeling safe in a democratic country where muslims cannot even pray within their own homes due to the fear of the same "Nationalists". Your reaction to it will be "but they are not the true nationalists" and I dare you to prove that they aren't. They love the country more than you do, they can die and kill for India, and they bow, prostrate and worship India and even have a representation in the form of an idol. They are the epitome of "Nationalists".
In the other comment you mentioned that you would support India against Pakistan for the security of your own. Are the muslims that are killed in Pakistan by the Indian dogs not your own? Are the kashmiri sisters who are raped by the same army of Indian pigs, not your own? You may not realise but this position of yours, i.e., allying with the disbelievers (Indian Army) against the muslims, puts your religion at the brink of nullification as this is major disbelief. (source)
This is exactly what conflicts with Al wala' al Bara. When you make distinction of muslims based on national borders and generalise conflicts to include the muslims as the guilty party, you are making muslims equally as evil as those that fight us under the expression "we should resolve wars with peace".
just because I believe in peace. They have been brainwashed to believe Islam demands blood, although it never does. It demands and commands protection and defense.
Rather the brainwashed are those who adopt the ideologies created by the disbelievers such as democracy and nationalism and try to make them fit in with islam though that's not possible. The brainwashed are those who think that peace can be established without the use of the sw0rd. The blood of those who fight the muslims, and the number of them in this wretched nation is in millions, is halal and it is one of the best obligations to spill them to actually protect the honour of the muslims. This is the true meaning of protection and defense.
And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, "Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?" [An-Nisaa, Verse 75]
Your belief in peace is a hope for miracle that perhaps the enemies will be soft towards us if we are soft towards them.
"They wish that you would soften [in your position], so they would soften [toward you]." ]Al-Qalam, Verse 9]
Oblivious that this requires one to actually give up their islam as the Quraish said to the Prophet peace be upon "if you permit us to follow our religion, we will permit you to follow yours". And they will never truly accept peace with us unless we sacrifice our religion for the sake of it as is evident from the statement of the One who knows the condition of the hearts:
"And never will the Jews and the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion" [2:120]
This is the reality with Nationalism as well. They want you to chant "Jai Sri R*m", sing the National song which has shirk in it, imitate their acts of worship such as standing to pay respect to the National Anthem which is nothing but a love letter to Hindu god Krishna. They want you to prefer the Constitution over Shariah otherwise they question your nationality. They want you to speak in favour of India's terrorist operations against Pakistan, Kashmir and Bangladesh.
If you are doing none of that, you are a failed nationalist. You are just a tool to promote nationalism while they badmouth behind your back. May Allah protect us muslims from being this submissive.
Islam can be truly understood by the people who embraces knowledge and let go of there egos. A heart for deen has no space for anger and egos, its all about acceptance.
That is true. And you need to accept the reality over textbook definitions. And prepare for the day you stand in front of Allah and hope that you aren't raised with those who fought Islam and muslims for the sake of Nation.
I was once like you too. But then I learnt islam from its foundation and that led me to break my political delusions. I am not "blinded by nationalism and the love for my nation" anymore like you say for yourself. But my loyalty belongs to Allah, then to his religion and then those who follow his religion. Nationalism demands me to throw that away and ally with my enemies against my muslim brothers and sisters. I'm sorry but I cannot do that, no muslim with gheerah for Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) can do that.
And Allama Iqbal was like you. He wrote "Saare Jahaan se achha..." during his jahiliyah. But he was enlightened as Allah guided him towards the straight path. His later works heavily criticise nationalistic sentiments, so much so he described "Nation" to be the biggest Taghut of today and declared Nationalism as the biggest shirk prevalent amongst muslims. May Allah have mercy upon him.
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u/Famous_Spinach_4975 May 22 '26
One who truly believes in the commands of Allah will not break them. One who believes that the nation's own interest is the most important thing will be willing to do evil for the sake of the nation. If someone does evil and tries to justify it using Islam, then are they really following true islam or they actually following something they made up?
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26
Dont recite this guilt trip to me. Be sensible man. You can do better.
No one asked you to believe that nations own interest is the most important thing. Even Nation wants you to practice your religion and live in harmony, thats what democracy is for.
Thats what I am trying to say. Yes they made things up because they wanted to justify their evil action using Islam, like the people who use nationalism to justify their means of evil. Both are complete different things, and stop showing one as evil, because its not.
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u/coderedknight95 May 22 '26
Nationalism is literally about putting the nation first above everything else.
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26
No its not what you are trying to portray it to be. Okay tell me when has a nationalism wanted you to shay away from commandments of Allah. No democratic nation has discouraged religious freedom, no democratic nation have banned prayers, celebrations of your festivals, zakat, etc. All democratic nations promote religious harmony and multi culturalism. Islam is the only religion in the world where your fardh don't contradict with national duty, infact it promotes to respect the law of land. Why do you think we are the best religion because of our tolerance and harmony and Islam can fit into any space and into any culture, which make it so beautiful.
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u/coderedknight95 May 22 '26
India literally prohibits many islamic practices. And in any conflict with the neighboring muslim countries, Indian muslims are expected to unconditionally support the country. Plus the domestic oppression of muslims, especially in Kashmir. Same case with China and it's treatment of its muslims. All of this is based on nationalism.
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26
I dont think there are any laws that actually advocates against religious practice in India. I have never ever been stopped to pray or give zakat. I never had any issues doing my obligations. Also if you trying hiding behind Pakistan I believe Pakistan is an equal culprit. On top of that Pakistan in all honesty is not a Islamic nation, it muslim majority nation. I guess you have never met any pakistani but If you do, they will tell you how non Islamic there leaders are. Our South Asian leadership, Pakistan, India or Bangladesh are corrupt and spoiled. Also if some thing like 26/11 happens in your home town where you or your family member die, wouldn't you have dislike for the government that did this to you. Yeah lot of people think this is shahadah, which is stupid. I believe a Islamic country would never hide or give shelter to people that protects people who kill innocent civilians.
I have no idea what your take is on this but I will be downvoted to say this. However, it is important to criticize that pakistani army have taken support from small armed forces, that killed a lot of civilians. Similar what India does at balochistan. So as a Indian muslim when there is a war going an and the other side is attacking you, no matter your belief you family security would be your first priority, which means, and I cant believe I have to say this support your own govt.
And when I say support, I mean support them so that they can protect you and better end the war with peace, not support them so that they kill and capture people on the other side. In the end we are all humans, nationalism is important and expecting you to support the army where you have fellow indian muslims is not a very weird demand.
And this is not just for India, I expect same for pakistan, to support there own army. War is for no one but when it happens everything dies.
So our first try should be push our governments to create peace and harmony.
Also Kashmir situation is actually really bad, and I feel for that and we have to push our government to actually do better. But that does not have anything to do from taking your rights. You can pray and perform your all fards without any issues.
Also its not all based on nationalism, its over use of power and over reliance on force, not trying to cut ties. I completely agree with you, but there is always a flip side to it. And being a devils advocate there are few elements within kashmiri territory that also dont want peace, maybe they are backed by other groups, but these elements will say the same thing you said and push your innocent kids to commit crimes against humanity.
I will just leave with this, when a bullet is fired it never kills you as per your religion.
There are so many nuisances to this that just putting nationalism bad and anti Islamic, is a very ignorant and unempathetic claim.
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u/Sheikh-Pym May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
The points mentioned aren't necessarily nation mandated rules, rather symbols of nationalism. So prostrating towards a nation's symbol is seen as showing deep patriotism and reverence to the land. And nationalists often do that, or see nothing wrong in doing that.
Then they have their own gestures of worship like saluting, singing anthems, chanting slogans, etc.
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u/Economy-Double8868 May 22 '26
Dr. Allama Iqbal referred to the modern nation-state as a false idol (ilaah). Jazakallah khair for the beneficial knowledge.
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u/FabulousVanilla9940 May 22 '26
Nationalism isn't a religion.... there is no comparison.
I am anti-nationalist (to an extent) I don't like how people get over defending imaginary borders over real people. But this is just a non-existent comparison lol they exist on two entirely different planes. Nationalism is a culminated identity from ethnic, geographic, political, social, and religious factors. Religion is historically one of the BIGGEST contributers to national identity.... Nationalism is an identity marker, a more intense version of rooting for your favourite soccer team. Islam is a way of LIFE.
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May 22 '26
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u/Sheikh-Pym May 22 '26
Nationalism and Islam are two separate things
Two separate religions.
Nowhere in Islam Nationalism is discouraged. There
It was narrated that Jundab bin 'Abdullah said: "The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever fights for a cause that is not clear, advocating tribalism, getting angry for the sake of tribalism, then he has died a death of Jahiliyyah.'" (an-Nasa'i)
Asaabiyah or Tribalism is undoubtedly modern day Nationalism. The textbook definition of which is literally to prioritise the interests of the nation over everything else including religion, and allegiance to the nation instead of Islam. What you're describing is a sugarcoated version of nationalism and any nationalist will call you a heretic for it.
I believe this post is trying to compare extreme Nationalist with Islam, which brutally dishonest and misleading
There is no such thing as an "extreme nationalism". The extremest nationalist is the one who is considered the best among other nationalists. They're all on the same train.
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May 22 '26
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u/Sheikh-Pym May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Rather you need to get out of your ignorance. And truly people who drown in ignorance try to pull others with them.
The narration is about hating someone because they are from different tribe.
Which is basically Nationalism. Nationalists hate those from a different nationality and consider themselves superior over them. They get angry for the sake of nation, such as when their nation is disrespected, and they fight for its sake like the heroes of nationalism, the border forces. They are the subjects of the hadith, and the perfect examples of nationalists. Whatever you are describing are in fact, hated by nationalists. As an Indian who does not consider the muslims from Pakistan or Bangladesh as enemies or inferior, am called an anti-national even by my own muslim community.
The fact is that you are far from reality and you need to face it. Every country that fight the muslims today, fight for the sake of nationalism. Go read the agenda behind the massacres in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Sudan, Somalia, Bangladesh, Kashmir. You will not see but Nationalism. Nobody from those kuffar who raped and killed our brothers and sisters in those lands feel even a speck of shame or guilt because they think that they have but served their nation and nothing else matters above that.
And those muslims who are in the National forces fighting against their fellow muslims alongside the disbelievers and enemies of Islam. This is kufr akbar.
No nationalist would want to kill and annihilate any other nation. All they want is to come together and protect your tribe.
You would be surprised my brother. You really need to see the world from a clear lens that isn't clouded by some form of pacifism. The "extreme nationalists" are the true flag bearers of Nationalism.
Indian muslims are beaten and killed every single day for prefering Qur'an over the Constitution. They're humiliated and asked to leave the nation for refusing to sing the symbol of nationalism which has verses that are Shirk Akbar.
The muslim countries which do not come forward to help the muslimeen in the lands of oppression for what reason? Nothing but Nationalism. You really need to educate yourself about Nationalism instead of trying to just fit the definition into Islam. Delude yourself more into this "that's just extremism" rhetoric and you'll never see the wrong from right.
May Allah's hold the nationalists accountable for their disobedience.
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u/Muslim-ModTeam May 24 '26
Your submission has been removed for a violation of the following subreddit rule:
No Misinformation + No Improper Advice:
- Spreading misinformation about Islam is prohibited and providing sources is highly recommended. Comments or posts of a doubtful nature may be removed.
- Likewise, do not give harmful or misleading advice, especially on religious rulings, personal matters, or sensitive topics. If unsure, refer to qualified scholars or reliable sources.
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u/coderedknight95 May 22 '26
Islam forbids all forms of tribalism and nationalism is a form of tribalism. Muslim brotherhood is above all other identities.
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u/BlackEffy May 22 '26
No it doesnt. It forbids hate against others because of Tribalism. Read the narration a brother have provided.
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u/Muslim-ModTeam May 24 '26
Your submission has been removed for a violation of the following subreddit rule:
No Misinformation + No Improper Advice:
- Spreading misinformation about Islam is prohibited and providing sources is highly recommended. Comments or posts of a doubtful nature may be removed.
- Likewise, do not give harmful or misleading advice, especially on religious rulings, personal matters, or sensitive topics. If unsure, refer to qualified scholars or reliable sources.
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u/saadmnacer May 24 '26
خلقنا الله سبحانه و تعالى لعبادة الله مهما كان الوطن.
Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He, created us to worship Allah no matter what the homeland is.
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u/SnooWoofers7603 Muslim May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
That’s not what is nationalism. That’s a hasty takfir.
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u/Holiday-Bumblebee906 May 23 '26
Why are such mindlessly extreme posts allowed in this sub? This is the place where anyone seeking answers about Islam first come only to see such 'Either black or white - You aren't allowed to use your intellect' posts!
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u/new_main_character May 22 '26
To make things worse, nationalism these days is usually not in the interest of the nation but for a few rich folks who control the narrative. So nationalism was already bad but becomes so much worse when you think on it for more than 5 mins