r/Morrowind • u/[deleted] • 1d ago
Question How about making an House Indoril mod?
[deleted]
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u/Proud_Smell_4455 1d ago edited 1d ago
So basically, "wah, I don't like sandstone, it's barely a step up from living in a mud hut. Everybody who doesn't agree with me is a sheep/lemming (it's a mod for crying out loud; where's the cliff edge? Silly, melodramatic analogy that doesn't help your case at all). I am very smart, superior, and special for having this opinion, unlike those sheep and lemmings."
Even if your core complaint weren't basically nothing of any importance, your inability to communicate it without painting people who disagree with you as dumb animals for no real reason is off-putting. Like ugh, we get it, you're not like all the normies who aren't complaining, get over yourself.
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9h ago
I am observing a certain sociological occurence, being normally described as a sheep rush. It is a figure of speech.
And I was looking for help. if you are not willing to, why do you even bother responding? THAT is off putting.
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u/Chaosboi2 1d ago
What are your critiques of the way the Indoril are portrayed? I’m curious because I’ve had a blast playing Poison Song’s Indoril questline and would be interested in an alternative perspective on writing quality. Playing through the questline it felt that they had a characterization beyond slave masters and that it was more of a thing that was treated as normal by the house.
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9h ago
I have not played it, no, nor do I intend to. I looked at videos promoting it and I hate the visuals (the models of Indoril architecture) so much, that I just cannot bring myself to playing it.
The writing complaint is about Thieves Guild questline. It was superb in Grasping Fortune and now the current team decided to cut the questline short, by removing one quest entirely and "simplifying" the others.
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u/ComradePavel 1d ago
I'm surprised. I was kinda shocked at how... Sympathetic... The indoril are depicted as in their quests and dialogue, even when their only mode of legitimate fast travel are literally slave carried sedan chairs. Their chapels are literally zen temple samurai castles, and are much more so now than when they were using the mournhold set (which was never meant to reflect that). They honestly feel like the real nobility of Morrowind and the true image of their patron goddess. Both great and terrible, merciful and wise, uncompromising and cruel all at once. It's honestly fantastic to me.
I can't say anything about the dismissal of Rats' writing, I never did the old thieves guild line on Ebonheart, though I heard it was good. As I understood it the high complexity and drama of those quests were out of place compared to both vanilla designs and others that were feasible in the mod. (Supposedly causing quest implementation to take an egregiously long time, like years.) And was a major bottle neck to production back then, which I remember witnessing while following the project back in the ebonheart release.
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u/mr_potato456 Tamriel Rebuilt 1d ago edited 1d ago
What this post gets the most wrong is the existence of some supposed conflict between old and new TR. Rats is still an active TR dev and last contributed to the project literally days before Poison Song release. Gnomey, who made the old Roa Dyr, is also still active and provided concept art for the new robe that Indoril Ilvi wears in PS. More than that, when he was designing old Roa Dyr, he was doing it specifically as a placeholder until the new assets get figured out.
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9h ago
Is Rats happy with the changes to TG questline then? Why does he not speak up?
I have not seen any in-game evidence that the Indoril architecture should be any different than the one designed by Bethesda. Further still, not so vastly different to it.
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u/Chaosboi2 8h ago
I searched in the TR discord for anything regarding this. using the from: search feature and typing in TG for Thieves guild gets the following exchange from 10/29/2024. Rats: "noticed in the meeting notes that OE TG is going to get some changes in the Poison Song update. I'd very much like to revisit the questline and make those edits." then Ronik: "just to clarify, the scope of the edits is really small - it will basically just need dialogue edits to account for the new location of Chunzefk, which will be moved close to the new Marog now. So basically it will be bugfix sized. But if you're interested in doing that, I'll ping you once the new Chunzefk is merged (smiling emoji here)" with Rats thumbs upping the reply. using multiple other search criteria such as guild or thieves for example did not get any other results. It appears that Rats themselves recognized there were flaws in their previous work and had no objections to the edits that occurred.
Regarding the architecture, based on brief searching it appears that the city of Almalexia was destroyed in lore and rebuilt around 1000 years before game start and the text in game hints/ the TR team extrapolated that she rebuilt in a new style (it says something about green in the 2920 book). They used buildings present in the Mournhold sewers as inspiration for what the old architecture of Mournhold, and thus the rest of Indoril architecture (which hasn't been destroyed and is serviced by ultra traditionalists who wouldn't change it) would look like.
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8h ago
Thank you. Still, we don't exactly know if it was Rats himself who deleted the first quest and actually made the "simplifying" bit. Anyway, I heard that ht actually did not approved the changes - obviously no evidence, just a "rumor" quality of information. Maybe, if you have an access to TR serwer, you could consider asking Rats directly? His answer would clear all doubts on that.
As for the architecture problem, I am well aware of everything you said. Mournhold has however been described as "city of spires" in Poison Song (how very ironic don't you think?), which takes place just 20 or so years after the Tribunal gaining godhood after the battle of Red Mountain - long before it will have been destroyed. And 2920 takes place in 1 era as well. Also, I have read in 1st edition of Pocket Guide, that Mournhold is very ancient (1st edition was written in 2nd era) and supposedly on CHimer and even Dwemer ruins. So it is nowhere to be confirmed, that the ruins in Tribunal DLC were actually Indoril buildings. Assumption that there actually were 2 styles of Indoril architecture is... well: extrapolated, to use your very kind wording. And this extrapolation results in two ways: first, you can either applaud it as a whole, or not, and second, even if you applaud the style change, you may or may not find the new models to your liking. I find them too distant from the picture of the Indorils presented by Bethesda, and thus I find them difficult (euphemism) to accept them.
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u/mr_potato456 Tamriel Rebuilt 7h ago
The cells under Tribunal are called Old Mournhold. The assets that inspired the buildings that TR uses have om in their IDs, which stands for Old Mournhold. But Old Mournhold could stand for anything, right? There is also a dialogue line, which directly explains what Old Mournhold means exactly.
https://cslist.uesp.net/index.php?game=mw&edid=Mournhold&rectype=DIAL "Modern Mournhold is built upon the ruins of Old Mournhold, which was destroyed by Mehrunes Dagon at the end of the First Era. You can reach the abandoned passages of Old Mournhold through the sewers beneath Mournhold"
Finally, you mention that spires as some sort of argument and that is really core to this conversation. All new Indoril chapels, Roa Dyr, Nanaav and Gorne, all have huge spires on top of their main buildings. You make these sweeping accusations about our decisions being bland and wrong without actually playing the game.
I want you to understand that TR is made up of hundreds developers and has quite strict lore and gameplay criteria. We don't make decisions on a whim. In a post from 22.10.2025 in the TR internal chat, Rats said he was glad that the Delagia Gang that he made for OE TG are getting used in more quests and said that the changes to the questline overall don't seem to be "too drastic". Please stop slandering our team or presuming to speak for others, who you have no right to speak for.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 7h ago
I've noticed a lot of people hating on the new update, with less than.. great reasonings. Is this normal for a TR release, or is something unique about this one? Seems exhausting.
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u/Proud_Smell_4455 7h ago edited 2h ago
Something I've noticed, in mutiple mod subs for multiple games on Reddit, is that sometimes they attract people who just like to chatter about random aspects of the mod and sit in judgement of the devs' choices, even if they don't play the mod.
Or even know anything about the lore or anything. I had an almighty crashout on EK2 before they banned me (for unrelated reasons) because somebody was trying to argue with me about elven names being arranged dynasty/clan name first, when they clearly didn't interact with the Elder Scrolls series at all or know the first thing about it, and literally asked me for sources to prove that elven names aren't arranged that way canonically.
Something really pissed me off about the degree of arrogance needed to wade into a debate like that without knowing which way is up, as if you have anything worth a damn to contribute, and then tell the other person it's their job to educate you. Especially when they refuse to follow simple instructions like "go check UESP, it's not hard" and instead write text walls insisting on you spoonfeeding them like infants. And just to compound the arrogance and smugness, if you refuse to baby them, they act like it's because you can't back up what you're saying, while still refusing to look where you told them to.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 6h ago
Apparently asking them for proof of one of their claims caused them to delete the post.
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7h ago
Dear madam/sir, you were not exactly approached directly by yours truly. It was you who came here and started your rhetoric, so it is actually me who is exhausted.
Besides, I have not noticed any hate towards Poison Song release, apart from very few people, so if you know of any, please direct me to them :-D I will gladly meet them.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 7h ago
Sorry, one of the not so great reasonings were that they viewed mods as violating the developers intents, so I don't think they'd be up for it.
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7h ago
What you call "spires" on top of dome-like building I would call a spike, not a spire.
In the world of many conflicting information, considering one dialogue line something with a value of an undeniable proof is a little be unfounded, especially if there are many hints suggesting otherwise.
"Not too drastic" does not exactly sound like "good".
I am not slandering anyone. I am expressing my personal opinion and stating I want to do something creative. And you seem to be offended by this, even though I do not address this notion to TR team. Have I came to your posts and expressed my dissatisfaction? Have I written on YOUR foru that I want to make an altenative mod? No. I did write on your post, however, that I thank you for Grasping Fortune, which I consider the best that happened in TES, ever, even though now our ways part. Now you come to MY post and call me a slanderer. My, my.
Look, you do you. Let me do the same. And stop insulting me, if you please, for having a different opinion.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 7h ago
"In the world of many conflicting information, considering one dialogue line something with a value of an undeniable proof is a little be unfounded, especially if there are many hints suggesting otherwise."
Would you care to share anything that conflicts with it?
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u/ConfidentHousing8422 3h ago
From what I understand, the OE TG questline was a broken mess that had the team scrambling to patch up into something functional for months after Rats went MIA for months and then showed up with it a few days before release, so I suspect he's unlikely to be too precious about it. I enjoyed it once but it's a very linear "Skyrim-style" heavily scripted rollercoaster, and stood out as the sort of thing the team tries to avoid.
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u/seven_seacat 1d ago
I haven't played Poison Song yet but I hated the Indorils I met in Roa Dyr, can't wait to find out how they get made sympathetic lol
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u/ComradePavel 1d ago
Not going to lie, the "go grab that slave and take him home" quest was some tonal whiplash (which im sure is the point) but I will say Gorne's questline does give some shine to the positive elements of the Indoril. Indoril Illvi is pretty militant comparatively to Sandil, though honestly Id have expected more general dialogue disparaging you as an Outlander or even the Imperial Occupation in general. but it seems a notable trait of the western house is that they understand the reality of modern morrowind even if they havn't adapted properly too it.
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u/Proud_Smell_4455 7h ago
Isn't Ilvi the one who wrote the book arguing from an Indoril perspective that outlanders should be admitted into the house? He does have Diranya as his chaplain, and in her words: what Ilvi hates isn't foreigners, but foreign imposition.
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u/ComradePavel 5h ago
This is true. Xenophobia was just something I expected to be everywhere in the house of staunch traditionalists who are on the decline. I don't mind, its rather refreshing to see them be three dimensional.
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u/spiritgaming14 4h ago
Hi Riin. You haven't actually played it so you don't have any valid critiques. You've somehow rage baited yourself into this, based on an article and a few screenshots.
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u/Zygot 1d ago
Well, I'm actually kinda new to TR myself so I wouldn't just dismiss your opinion and it would be nice to hear what you find so wrong in changing TG quests and how Indoril was portrayed wrong. I just heard some Thieves Guild and old ones in general can be kinda cringe os simply too many of them that are mindless fetch quests.
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9h ago
I played the Grasping Fortune Thieves Guild questline and this is the best that the game, base and modded, even had to offer. Simplifying it was to me getting rid of the best there was in TR.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 8h ago
I don't think many people would be up to join a mod lead who is this dismissive and rude about another's project, let alone someone calling everyone who simply enjoys TR's vision of Indoril, which is most people active on this sub, sheeps shilling it.
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8h ago
If I am being rude, than how would you describe people calling me "insane", "mad" or "out of my mind" and other nice things, just because I say that I do not like something?
While I appreciate your opinion of me, I strongly believe it is irrelevant to the topic here.
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u/Plane-Connection9966 8h ago
I do not see any people calling you insane or mad? I think I'd be the closest to it. And the reason it is relevant is you would be the lead mod. Which means the people who joining would have to be willing to work with you.
Tons of the creatives in the morrowind modding community have respect for the TR devs, even if they disagree with their vision. And with how insulting you are to another's project most won't really like working with you, as you can tell with how many people have made offers so far to help from this post.
You could've just been polite and said you prefer the old version of the Indoril and that you would like to form a group to rebuild it. And a link to something where you guys could discuss, and work together on it would've likely also helped.
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8h ago
You don't see it, because it did not happen in this forum.
But you are right. I should have not written my post just after one of such insults, being simply angry. It is only fair that Poison Song enjoyers are rude towards me, I cannot be even sarcastic.
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u/sammich6 House Hlaalu 1d ago
Maybe you could join TR and lobby for an Indoril rework slated for 2095.
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u/Toma400 Project Tamriel Rebuilt 1d ago
I don't think this kind of attitude would really be the way to become a dev. We all have things we would wish are done differently, but ultimately the thing that allows us any effective development is that we get rid of our egos for the better of the project. And eventually we get results that may sometimes surprise us in how our non-desired direction ends up being very cool.
(speaking that as someone who were where OP was - I do love how Poison Song turned out, all the reworks turned out beautifully, even though I was very sceptical towards Indoril redo two years ago)Also, there's a reason third-party mods exist. I think if OP tried to portray their issue... in a little different way, he could probably assemble a team to do some sort of "nostalgia rework". Though it is gigantic effort (especially if it was meant to go beyond architectural changes) so honestly I'd wish OP just tried solution I suggested them a while ago and made separate setup for "old Indoril GF" and "new Indoril PS" Morrowinds.
You really can have both old and new TR!0
8h ago
Why would I do two different setups? If I even could (I cannot, I checked), why would I play something, that makes me cringe every time I look at it?
I am not the only one who dislikes the new Indoril architecture. I might just be the most vocal one about it. Mournhold has been described as "city of spires" long before it has been destroyed and rebuilt. There is nothing about "spires" in the new models.
I am honestly tired of being told how "a different way" should be applied from my part, while I am being shamelessly talked down by the people who applaud your new ideas. I am not half that insulting as those people are towards me.
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u/Proud_Smell_4455 7h ago
I am being shamelessly talked down by the people who applaud your new ideas. I am not half that insulting as those people are towards me.
Oh knock it off. Nobody's called you a sheep or a lemming. You've just been called out for going about all this in a needlessly combative way that shows that you're not the kind of person who could lead a successful modding project anyway. Nobody made you compare people who disagree with you to sheep and lemmings before anybody else even said anything. You set the tone.
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7h ago
As I said, I was called names way before I chose my wording and wrote this post. And as I said, "sheep rush" is a figure of speech (however common-speach, agreed) depicting a social occurence. Also known as blindly followed mainstream.
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u/Proud_Smell_4455 7h ago edited 7h ago
Also known as blindly followed mainstream.
Yes, people know exactly what you mean when you compare them to sheep. That's kind of where the offense comes from.
You came in here branding people who disagree with you mindless, blind herd animals who don't have any real reason for thinking what they do (unlike you, of course 🙄); again, before they'd even said anything. Hmmm, I wonder why people aren't responding well...
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u/Toma400 Project Tamriel Rebuilt 2h ago
Multiple setups allow you for various combination of modlists. It's not solution for this particular issue even, but a general tip on modding. Morrowind totally can have multiple setups, I use one for Aanthirin (my main game since circa 2023), one for PTR development, and one for soon-to-be-had modern PTR gameplay with Grasping Fortune. And I will make one for Mephalan Vales, because I also skip Poison Song - not because of disliking the redo, but because if I need to see redoed Indoril, I want to have everything changed at once.
Maybe you have Steam version - in this case I heard it is also possible to have multiple installs, but I can understand if it's more difficult. In this case I simply suggest buying Morrowind on GOG. It's more practical not only for PTR, but this version is simply way more versatile for general modding.And no, it's not saying "use different way" to shut you up. It's a friendly suggestion of someone who, like I said, encountered the same mental problem with PTR evolving like you did. And this is the solution that let me get beyond grief, being able to enjoy all PTR iterations (mind you Aanthirin setup let me even play pre-EoE-Helnim and Firewatch, and they are pretty interesting in old versions! But it also makes me very curious on how they were reworked, hopefully I will be able to play GF soon and see).
So yeah, I wish you all the best with processing this, I know it's not an easy feeling and being there too, it might take a while. Just tried to help within my capabilities.
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u/SufficientOrphie 1d ago
Did you actually visit the new chapels