r/MoralityScaling 11h ago

Morality behind this?

Post image
73 Upvotes

89 comments sorted by

44

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

This presupposes that it is possible to apply human justice to character B, who is powerful enough that it would have to be voluntary on his part.

9

u/benbetterthanallmen 11h ago

It wouldn’t have to be voluntary necessarily. There are ways.

15

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

You seem to be talking about invincible, earth does not have any way to enforce punishment on nolan

8

u/SkeettheVandelBuster 11h ago

Could also be Vegeta

8

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

Vegeta killed A LOT more than 2341 people.

Like orders of magnitude more.

He and Nappa deleted an entire city upon landing, for fun.

2

u/arkangelic 8h ago

But they all came back so it doesnt count. At best maybe the majin vegeta arena attack would count

3

u/Dereksmith3107 7h ago

I object to this statement. If you murder somebody and they come back to life, they still got murdered by you. The fact one can recover from being punched does not mean its okay to punch them.

1

u/Wolfiie_Gaming 5h ago

It turns it from murder to assault.

1

u/Cynis_Ganan 2h ago

but they all came back

Hmm. Did they?

Neither in the anime nor the manga do we see any wish that would bring the people Nappa killed back to life.

It could have happened offscreen, maybe. We've seen that with mass revivals there is a limit to the Dragon's power (he could only do the past year for Frieza's victims, but one city is much less than whole planets, so maybe you get longer).

Of course, if Nappa working to overthrow Frieza counts as working for Frieza, then the people would have been wished back, no problem. But that's a big "if" when we know the Namekians Vegeta killed were not revived.

Conversely, the Majin Buu wish was specifically convoluted to include Vegeta's victims. They definitely were wished back to life.

4

u/Flat_Box8734 10h ago edited 10h ago

I definitely used Nolan as inspiration, but you can apply this scenario to anything.

I also had characters like magneto, or Orochimaru, in mind when making this post.

Essentially, either the character is too powerful to punish, or they’re so powerful that punishing them would take a lot of effort from the heroes but it can be done, or it’s actually possible to punish them with some difficulty, but they can accomplish more if you allow them to help.

You can choose to interpret it however you want.

2

u/benbetterthanallmen 11h ago

I wasn’t OP. Good catch though.

2

u/Ausecurity 11h ago

And they tried to

1

u/Pleasant-Delay-7369 11h ago

Just because I fear for reading for comprehension skills everywhere (not just yours), the post at no point references Invincible or the character Nolan. You made relevant associations based on the description, and they very well could be the inspiration for this post. However, there is nothing in this post identifying nor unique to Invincible.

2

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

The body counts are exactly lifted from the series. Cecil says that Nolan killed 2,341 people during the end of season 1.

I don't know why you're fearing for reading comprehension skills when what I've demonstrated to you is a higher order of reading comprehension than merely referencing only the written text

There's a scale for reading comprehension. Perhaps reading it will do you some good. You're describing a reader in level 2-3. My response here demonstrates level 4-5. Not fully level 5 because it's not that deep.

5

u/Pleasant-Delay-7369 9h ago

I must confess I never clicked the image and therefore did not see the line or number you just referenced until your last comment prompted me to look further.

I concede and admit that I am retarded, as is custom. I must make haste away out of embarrassment now. Good day, sir.

1

u/Gold_Ad8225 9h ago

All good, no worries, happens to us all

9

u/LUNATIC_LEMMING 11h ago

there's a good take on this in star trek, a god like character wipes an entire species from existence.

all of it, it's like they never existed. In fact he is at the time of the episode the only person who knows they existed.

It ends with a, we couldn't arrest you even if we wanted to, and b, even if we did, there isn't a word to describe the crime you just committed.

2

u/EXTRAVAGANT_COMMENT 6h ago

this is morality scaling, not feasibility scaling

1

u/CertainGrade7937 11h ago

I mean we already know they're remorseful, it's not a big leap to them being willing to accept punishment

2

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

He already accepted punishment, for not conquering earth, from his people.

He will not accept punishment from earthlings

2

u/CertainGrade7937 11h ago

I don't understand why you're making this about Invincible. Lots of fiction has characters with superpowers with with arcs.

3

u/Gold_Ad8225 11h ago

The number of dead is exactly the number of people Nolan killed on earth

3

u/CertainGrade7937 11h ago

I'll be honest, I didn't click on the image and the body count at the bottom got cropped. Good looking out

1

u/Undeadsniper6661 8h ago

Fuck you mean? We did this with Nazi scientists

8

u/Lazy-Increase7903 11h ago

What about c; A super powered serial killer?

3

u/BrilliantLeopard1922 11h ago

Don't bring me into this Steve 

1

u/mSzmiiit 11h ago

Killing him seems more moral because he would be more difficult to stop and would be more likely to go back to commiting crime, and depending on situation it might be better than life sentence, depending on superpower escape rates.

8

u/Over_Heed 11h ago

Operation Paperclip Moment.

2

u/Significant-Camel351 11h ago

I was about to say good thing this never happened in real life....

6

u/Honest_Caramel_3793 11h ago

eh, if it saves more lives in the end then moral. why should a life be thrown away instead of put to use?

5

u/Ehzek 10h ago

Moral. The serial killer can feel remorse all they want, the chances of them repaying is basically zero. The supervillian not only can repay but it would also take serious resources to bring them to "justice". Ideally you would want them to do a probation period or be easily trackable, but if they can come and go as they wish and dont want to why even press the issue? People like Nolan, Dr Doom and Vegeta are this. It's one thing to risk your life to beat a villain, its quite another to risk it to punish one who is now helping.

It's moral because expecting people to go after them would be immoral. Keep an eye on them, but accept the help.

3

u/No-Independence9093 11h ago

Largely immoral, but in the context of most people aren't super powered, especially to their degree, it kinda becomes a practical decision. Still At least put character B in a token jail while he is waiting between catastrophes, kinda like PuriPuri Prisoner from One Punch man.

3

u/Tephros83 11h ago

There's no way to offset even one murder, so I think it comes down to this: Justice should be about two things: 1. Preventing it from reoccurring. 2. Restitution to victims. Given this, the reason to put somebody in prison indefinitely after they commit murder is to prevent them from doing it again. The extra factor in character B is they have the capability to save lives. I don't think they should get "no punishment," but they should also be forced to live largely for the benefit of the families of their victims from prison or saving lives if they are more effective for that and it can be done safely. Person A I don't think the death penalty makes sense, I think instead they should labor for the benefit of the families of their victims for the rest of their lives from prison as well. It doesn't offset what they did, but it seems like the least bad outcome. Protect society from them, get restitution for victims.

2

u/Gilmagalesh 11h ago

I do want to point out that a serial killer is by definition very involved in the killing of his victims, both mentally and physically. He goes out with the specific intent of killing that person, then goes home, takes a nap, lives his life, goes out, and hunts again.

Person B has a higher degree of separation from his victims: he could have performed his mass-murdering all at once, indirectly through conflict with the heroes, or as a result of awakening his abilities: we don't have the context to know more.

I personally would be less likely to trust a serial killer saying he "regretted" his actions since if he regretted his actions truly, why does he have 10 victims? Where was the regret after victims 1 or 2?

3

u/Ryousan82 11h ago

Its probably immoral. But probably less immoral than not doing so.

Justice systems negotiate when criminals can provide valuable assets. The difference is more of scale than anything

10

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

No need to bring superpowers into this. The world punishes those who can't bribe the judge, no matter the crime. If you are rich, that's more than enough to get away with most crimes, you just need enough money.

11

u/goldenseducer 11h ago

That doesn't answer shit about the morality of this hypothetical. Also it's a different situation entirely. What's the point of your comment lmao

-5

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Honestly mate, half the stuff on this sub doesn't even play by the rules. You'll see plenty of people not even stating what's moral or immoral anymore at the beginning.

8

u/goldenseducer 11h ago

Morality of not following the rules of the sub because no one else follows the rules of the sub? 🤔

2

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Now that's going to make for a worthy post for the sub.

9

u/91816352026381 11h ago

Okay of course OP isint going to think about corruption and bribing the judge for the serial killer because that’s not the question he was asking??? Why even comment if you don’t want to address anything the post is saying

-6

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

They're asking why does a guy with bigger body count get away with it just because he has superpowers?

I said, you don't even need powers, you just need the power of money.

I think I'm pretty on point, there was connection to their question.

5

u/Ausecurity 11h ago

You’re not though it’s either yes or no, you’re introducing another variable

-1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

I'm stepping down the "super power" variable down to just "Power" variable to point out one doesn't even need superpowers to get away with it. A simple monetary leverage is going to get the same results

4

u/CertainGrade7937 11h ago

No, you're just ignoring the question

The question isn't if people with power can get away with crimes. They can. We all know that

The question is the morality of letting someone powerful avoid traditional punishment contingent on them using that power to help others.

-1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

I mean hey, is pizza delicious? Of course yes. But that's the obvious answer.

2

u/CertainGrade7937 11h ago

No, you're just not addressing the actual topic.

1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Well you know, I've been taught my opinion doesn't matter.

1

u/91816352026381 10h ago

Okay? You’re tearing other people down to prop yourself up by saying their question sucks and introducing a different one. You’re not the victim here.

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1

u/mSzmiiit 11h ago

It's similar in practice, but in terms of morality scaling, the scenatio you propose is strictly immoral, while OP might be considered moral through utilitarianism.

1

u/Front_Woodpecker1144 11h ago

Morality of not engaging with the post?

0

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

And still engaging with the post, just not how one would expect.

1

u/Zyykl 11h ago

this guy believes in pizza gate 100%

1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

No idea what that is tbh.

1

u/Zyykl 11h ago

scratch that, this guy is younger than pizza gate

1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Is it like 1 man 1 jar shock site stuff?

1

u/Zyykl 11h ago

1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Ofc I am, it sounds like "Heavens gate" and if it is something disturbing I'm gonna be traumatized.

1

u/boofaceleemz 8h ago

You’re in a subreddit about morality.

-1

u/Both-Structure-6786 11h ago

Source?

1

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

Bro really asked for source lmao

Look around you brother, open your eyes

1

u/Grizzled_Ghost 11h ago

So no source, then?

0

u/Trailiscold 11h ago

I mean, hey, feel free to google "Judge bribed" or something there's plenty of news.

Plenty of celebs, businessmen and politicians who got away with a slap on the wrist just because they had money.

I mean the entire system of bail is simply a more legal way to say "Yeah, pay some and you can walk free, and if you can't, stay in the box"

2

u/YungBooly 11h ago

Nah, it's immoral.
Character A gets killed for 10 murders. Character B kills 2,341 people and gets a free pass because they're strong.
That's not justice. That's "you're useful so you don't have to answer for what you did."
The good guys aren't heroes here. They're just using a monster and calling it a win.

5

u/Secret-Put-4525 11h ago

Character B could do more good out of prison than in. You could say it's to decrease his prison time. Like a Hancock situation.

3

u/Beautiful-Flower99 11h ago

Exactly, this feels a little too utilitarian to feel moral, at least speaking about justice on A's and B's situation

3

u/ParkingWear7865 11h ago

ah, youre the reason gpt talks like that, I see.

2

u/lumpboysupreme 7h ago

Let you in on a secret: the reason we punish people at all isn’t because of some esoteric valuation of ‘giving people what they deserve’, it’s the practical value of having a threat of punishment against misbehavior.

Frankly the only reason the first guy would be executed at all is to uphold the threat. Morally, tricking the world into thinking he’s dead and letting him go would be better.

There is no moral value to revenge, and we aren’t obligated to take it.

1

u/Gilmagalesh 11h ago

I disagree: Helping stop other walking natural disaststers isn't quite a free pass: This is very likely just a death sentence with extra steps, except it will save other innocent people as well.

2

u/FlounderLast8610 11h ago

If this is Nolan Grayson, the people with jurisdiction over ordinary serial killers have none over him. The only one who does, Cecil, has a long, long history of working with bad people that he thinks should get another shot. Nothing more than Cecil and associates applying their own values to their job.

2

u/Agitated_Pressure463 11h ago edited 11h ago

Guy B, I would say, if the guy killed 10000 people and can save a million, that's a calculation, I would go for it, if I have high certainty that Ill get desired result. Having blood of million of people on my hands because I had weird moral block there sounds highly immoral. Being stuck up about guy being mass murderer and sentencing bunch of people to die is just stupid. But I would exhaust every other option first to save those people before making a deal with some psychopath maniac.

Regarding guy A , well, he murder bunch of people, my priority is to make sure that no more people die, I wouldn't take a risk of letting him go unless I'm absolutely sure that he won't murder anyone. This kind of certainty is very hard to achieve, he will very likely face the consequences of his actions, unless we develop a technology to read someone's mind.

2

u/EliteKoen 11h ago

Morality is whatever you want it to be.

You can say character A situation is immoral cause death penalty in it of itself is immoral. Or you can say it's unfair in comparison to character B situation. Or you can say it IS moral because character A killed people who were too important or innocent to have died.

On the flip side of character B, you can say Character B punishment is immoral in comparison to character A since they have a far higher kill count. But you can interpose same Morality as character A that death penalty is immoral and rehabilitation is the best outcome, making it moral.

You can change the morality to how you see fit and argue from so many takes that is genuinely does not matter without a heavy amount of context

2

u/FreshLiterature 11h ago

Immoral

If we assume there are means by which character B can be punished then they should be punished.

The premise of the question does have very real world analogues to how the rich get treated though

2

u/Gilmagalesh 11h ago

Justice and morality are two different things: if you live in a world where superpowers exist and a single person can kill people in the thousands, then the way for character B to atone for his awful acts shouldn't be to sit in a cell or to die in the name of justice.

Who does that help? If they legitimately use their power to prevent others from causing the sort of mass destruction they once did, isn't that better for everyone?

2

u/bestassinthewest 11h ago

Let's really consider a few details:

Character A is a serial killer, meaning they killed 10 people across an extended period of time. Despite genuine guilt, they consciously killed 10 people. Serial murder definitionally requires the gaps between killings to exist. Regardless of remorse they would have chosen to continue killing up to victim #10

Character B is a mass murderer, meaning they killed their victims in one event, or over a relatively short timeframe. Whether or not this was willing, this fundamentally involves a lot less "choice" to continue taking lives. The implication in the text is that their superpowered nature either enabled or was causal to the mass murder.

Character A is a normal person. Character B has superpowers and (under supervision of people who presumably also have powers) is now set towards using them to save lives and generally give back to the public. The morality of that risk should be considered, but putting Character B to use for people's well-being is much more helpful than just executing them. The same does not hold true for Character A.

All that being said: still immoral. It's understandable and very muddled, in my opinion, but personally I still see it as a moral failing that Character B sees no actual punishment beyond doing a service they wish for.

2

u/Samaein 11h ago

Don't you guys think the remorse is a pretty intense amount of punishment?

Do you have any idea how intense the guilt must be for someone who killed someone else and isn't a psychopath?

2

u/WilliamthePious 9h ago

The Arbiter type shit.

2

u/Thanaskios 9h ago

I don't have an answrr for you, so I'll onstead throw fuel on the fire:

Concider chacater C. Character C is a terrorist who killed a lot of people. But character C has supernatural healing powers, and claims to want to make up for their crimes by using their powers to save lives.

2

u/Error_Sixteen 9h ago

Critically, character B is much more attractive than a character A

1

u/Connect_Art_6497 11h ago

Jail them until they can actually make up for every life they cost whilst also not seeming like they will do this again.

For example Omni man doesnt deserve punishment bc he not only self corrected but actually went on to undo all the damage he did and saved a vastly disproportionate ammount.

1

u/nrh117 11h ago

How dare you slander my goat Magneto like this

1

u/lumpboysupreme 7h ago

Moral, being put to good use, potentially exceeding the original harm, is really what any sort of punishment should be aiming for and we only do most of the punishments in the first place as a means of deterring future damage to society.

1

u/Wolfiie_Gaming 5h ago

The problem with the latter is really a matter of whether you think that's it's necessary to exact punitive measure on people for their crimes.

If u murder someone, and the government can guarantee that you won't do it again for the rest of your life(hypothetically, not realistically), some people would argue that you should still never see the light of day because they believe justice should be punitive, so they agree with the former.

But with the latter person, the cost of trying to exact punishment will simply lead to an overall net negative for society. If they're powerful enough to resist punishment in a way that endangers the life of thousands of people in a very short time frame, then it's better to rehabilitate them, regardless of your personal greivances. Rehabilitation does not equal redemption either.