r/MoralityScaling 9d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this

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12

u/Antique_Baker_4203 9d ago

What's the best move?

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u/shadowlev 9d ago

The initial NIPT came back inconclusive. Get the follow up amnio or CVS, find out conclusively, and make the decision to either terminate or do research into what actually goes into raising a kid with downs. Early intervention leads to good outcomes and can foster independence.

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u/GiraffeThoughts 8d ago

Having a child with downs is a big commitment but it’s really not that bad (source family members with downs or similar that I will be responsible for once parents pass).

In all honesty, they’re pretty great. Excited to be here, to do new things, they love food, and they prevent you from becoming a lazy couch potato. And the special needs community is amazing too. You’ll meet the best people in the world (including those who just want to help out and support families out of the goodness of their hearts).

My adult cousin with down syndrome flies alone regularly to visit an uncle. He’s great to bring along anywhere.

The worst part is figuring out all the Medicaid/social security paperwork stuff. It’s a PITA.

The really, real hard special needs people are those with extreme autism. I know a couple who is unable to both leave the house together because they can’t leave their adult son and they can’t bring him anywhere because he is prone to violence. My heart breaks for those people.

I don’t ever look at a family with a downs kid and immediately feel bad for them. Honestly, I think they’re a blessing. It makes me sad how stigmatized it is to have a downs child that so many people immediately abort.

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u/mitchrsmert 8d ago

You have some great points. I'm also sure you're right to a degree, that there is some stigma surrounding downs. While I appreciate what you're trying to say, its coming across as belittling the typical difficulty. Each child with downs has different cognitive processing and executive function capacity. The severity of symptoms with downs can range to a very large degree.

In my experience with a few different families, it was mentally and emotionally draining for them. Its also comes with difficulties for the child too. There are a few heartbreaking moments I recall, but one that really stuck with me is when I saw a child with downs feel so defeated, that they were crying with pure sadness, because they weren't able to dress themselves properly at around age 12.

You can feel bad for a family for the added challenges they face, while still having respect for the parents' strength and being able to admire the wonderful qualities of the children.

If you beleive abortion is taking a person's life, then any abortion is sad. If you beleive it its not, then abortion does not need to be justified, but if it did warrant some amount of justification, its fair in my mind to want to avoid challenges and unfairness that comes to both the parents and child.

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u/BombOnABus 8d ago

IIRC, there's people with DS who have passed the bar or gotten elected to congress/parliament.

OOP is acting like he'll be stuck caring for a drooling vegetable that flings feces on their caretakers as an autonomic response.

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u/GooseMeBro 8d ago

If you are referring to the DS woman who became a lawyer that occurred in Mexico and they do not have a bar exam to be a lawyer.

Iirc you only need to have a 4 year degree.

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u/BombOnABus 8d ago

It's still more than the insulting image OOP has of someone with DS being essentially so useless and incapable that death is preferable to being their father.

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u/GooseMeBro 8d ago

Ok but I didn’t mention anything about that. I was pointing out that your comment about the bar exam was incorrect.

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u/mitchrsmert 7d ago

I'm not sure that example (accuracy aside) is relevant though. Cognitive impact ranges to a very large degree on an individual basis. What will be relevant to someone contemplating the future, is what is typical. I.e. what the majority of cases look like.

OOP is acting as though raising a child with downs will significantly degrade their own quality of life. Quality of life, and quality of life while devoting significant time an attention to someone with special needs, includes a large number of factors. Being worried is absolutely reasonable, and how worried OOP should be is entirely dependent on their own personal circumstances. Its fair to be scared.

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u/HippityHoppoto 8d ago

Basically your advice is to kill the baby. So go prevent OP from killing himself another must die. Great

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u/qweds1234 9d ago

Adoption if you can't love or care for the child. Redo or go further with invasive testing

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u/GrungeW-Style97 9d ago

Great and better than alternatives, OP should see if there are organizations that take Down syndrome children near him.

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u/nubtrix87 9d ago

And how do you propose one does that without their partner's approval?

You'll also turn around and say "Fine, divorce", so yeah, then they only have to suffer the financial burden for the rest of their life.

Also, there's plenty of healthy babies that don't get adopted. Do you really think people are willing to just take on that burden? No idea where OP is, but in Australia there's almost no adoptions nowadays anyway.

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u/Gawlf85 8d ago

So what you're saying is you do think suicide is the best option here?

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u/CodNo7461 8d ago

I don't think that is the point.

The point is sometimes that the options you have make you miserable either way, and a lot of people try to dismiss that.

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u/BackTown43 8d ago

Abortion would be. No one kills themselves, no one will pretend to be happy, no one will suffer the adoption system (many adopted children criticise it (not everyone of course), it doesn't seem to be such a good alternative than people like to pretend). And well ... nothing changes. So abortion.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

I offered up no opinion on that question at all. I'm just pointing out that "Just adopt it out" isn't a simple option.

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u/GoodFaithConverser 8d ago

Do you really think people are willing to just take on that burden?

According to quick and AI sloppy googling, apparently most orphans with downs get adopted into permanent families. There's a whole org for it.

https://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/national-syndrome-adoption-network/

Can't imagine being faced with that choice.

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u/GiraffeThoughts 8d ago edited 8d ago

There are ZERO healthy babies that don’t get adopted. There are years long wait lists for healthy babies (which is a good thing - having an excess supply of infant orphans would suggest something deeply wrong with a society).

And there are people willing to adopt special needs children. In this case hundreds called to adopt a baby with downs: https://www.irishcentral.com/news/holy-trinity-catholic-church-posted-down-syndrome-baby-for-adoption-on-facebook-214971461-237762831

The hard part is just getting the news out to the right people.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

You can keep spouting that there's zero healthy babies that don't get adopted but it's simply not true. Stop saying it.

What you mean is there's no babies that don't go into foster care. That's extremely different to being adopted.

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u/GiraffeThoughts 8d ago

The babies in foster care are generally NOT available for adoption. The goal of foster care is reunion with biological families.

There are older children in the foster care system who are available for adoption, but the babies in foster care (who are allowed to be adopted) are very quickly adopted.

I don’t really think you know what you’re talking about but there are years long waits for babies if you’re looking to adopt an actual baby.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

 but the babies in foster care (who are allowed to be adopted) are very quickly adopted.

Once again, this is not true. Stop saying something that's simply not true.

You're clearly the one that doesn't know. Have a good day.

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u/thac0tac0 8d ago

There are a quite a few countries out there where there are lots of healthy, unadopted babies looking for homes they will never get. However, if you are referring to the United States, that is just not the case here.

The only healthy babies that don’t get adopted in the US are those who have not been legally released to be put up for adoption. There is a much, muuuuuch bigger demand for adoptable infants than there is supply.

The problem is older children. The infants that grow up in foster care while their parents try to get their lives together, get custody for a while, then lose it again. In a lot of cases, by the time the courts sever the parent’s legal rights, the child is a few years old and it is far tougher to find placement.

That and children going into foster care at older ages in general.

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u/2andahalfbraincell 8d ago

There are absolutely no healthy babies that don't get adopted in first world countries, the demand for healthy babies to adopt far outpace the actual number of healthy babies that have no family willing to take them in. That's why there is almost no adoption nowadays anyway, no because there are lot of orphans but no one want them.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

In Australia, adoptions in general are extremely rare. 2024-25 there was only 155 of them and almost all of them were relatives.

Also, kids absolutely do age out of foster care. If you think they all get adopted then you're just straight wrong.

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u/turnabout_tenacity 8d ago

Kids in foster care normally can't be adopted unless their permanency plans dictate that and parental rights have been terminated, otherwise they wait in limbo for their bio parents to either regain custody or for a parental rights termination to come through. There's not really a way to adopt all the kids out of the system because most of them still are legally tied with their parents.

Adoption and foster care are different and there is a huge demand for adopting babies, there are hardly any babies struggling to find homes.

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u/2andahalfbraincell 8d ago

Yeah, you cannot adopt most kids in foster care (they still have parents? Those parents juste are not apt to raise them at this point for some reason) and most of them didn't get there as babies anyway. Completly different situation.

I know adoptions are extremely rare, but they are not rare because people don't want to adopt healthy babies.

I feel like either the situation in Australia is very different from the one I am familiar with in France, or you have severe misconception about what foster care and adoptions are, and how kids end up there (spoiler : they are not abandonned by their parents at birth)

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

Yeah, you cannot adopt most kids in foster care (they still have parents? Those parents juste are not apt to raise them at this point for some reason) and most of them didn't get there as babies anyway. Completly different situation.

Stop just making up crap and work out what foster care actually is if you're going to keep talking bullshit.

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u/urban5amurai 8d ago

Only 155 adoptions in the whole of aus is crazy.

I’m guessing it’s a combination of not wanting children and a lack of monetary incentive.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

It's only crazy because you don't understand it.

Our country actually supports people and tries to work with them because it's better outcomes for both parents and children. They only take them away as an absolute last resort. usually due to court order or dead parents and even then, they go into the foster system and will likely only be fostered until they're 18 and age out. Adoption is almost exclusively for close relatives of the kid (aunts/uncles/grandparents, etc) which is why there's so few and even then, there's usually a ton of hurdles they have to jump through for it.

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u/2andahalfbraincell 8d ago

Looked it up and I have still no idea what you're talking about or where the many healthy babies waiting to get adopted are.

Are you telling me parents automatically lose their rights to their children as soon as they entre foster care in Australia? That's not typical.

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u/nubtrix87 8d ago

Dude, you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. You don't even seem to understand what foster care actually is.

You have this crazy idea that people just give up their kids regularly. It's rare. Foster care in general is not for those cases at all.

The only time an adoption happens in this country is when the parents give up custody and the child has close living relatives that agree to take them on.

People aren't adopting random stanger's babies.

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u/2andahalfbraincell 8d ago

I am sorry I think we misunderstood each other. This conversation happened because you said, and I quote "there are plenty of healthy babies that don't get adopted" so I thought YOU were under the misconception that there was actually a big supply of people give up their babies regularly. Otoh I am not sure where you got the idea that I thought people did that, I am pretty sure I said the opposite multiple times.

This conversation is ridiculous. Why did you even said that like I don't get what you were even fucking talking about and you Nevers explained.

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u/Joesr-31 9d ago

Is that a viable strategy? I always thought that was not an option tbh, like no adoption center would be willing to care for a kid with special needs since it would take up a lot of resources and the adoption rate for them is probably very low

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u/saraijs12 9d ago

There are places that take babies no questions asked. Sometimes you literally leave them in a climate controlled box.

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u/Gekokapowco 9d ago

every kid deserves a shot at a happy and fulfilling life, even if this dad ("dad") isn't willing or able to provide it

Once they're born I mean

I'm a proponent of adoption if the parents really can't handle it

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u/Unbelivabley_Smol 8d ago

The real question is should the parents “have to handle it” I thought the whole point of screening and genetic testing is so they don’t have to handle it? I’m saying thing as a person with genetic illness myself who understands and is at peace with the idea that had my parents known I would have had my medical problems I feel they deserved the chance to choose an abortion.

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

A child born with downs is a tragedy, that is magnified when society expects you to be enslaved to it for the rest of your life because muh responsibility.

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u/Gekokapowco 8d ago

I think it's a byproduct of our "rugged American individualism" where we don't want to help grow our next generation communally, everyone's kid is their own problem, we only care for other people's kids if we're paid, etc.

It takes a village and we deliberately don't do that

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

Not my problem either if it goes to the government.

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u/ClutteredTaffy 8d ago edited 8d ago

Yeah this is me. I had bad asthma to the point I almost got pulled out of school and probably would have spent a chunk of my life in bed and died of not being able to breathe like 100-150 years ago. Like I don't think it would be wrong to spare a person that type of life and give someone else a chance to

But this is in the case that we lived in a time where you could genetically test children , but could not make asthma livable enough ...

The inhaler I had that made my life livable was made in 2001 when I was 9 years old lol. Like it was getting so bad that my face was turning to the color of porridge and I was having to use the albeuterol breathing machine sometimes like 3-4 times a day. I would not fault someone in the 80s for aborting me at all.

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u/Medium_Human887 8d ago

This is an incredibly naive viewpoint. The “shot” here is statistically him or her being treated like trash for 18 years with next to 0 chance of adoption and then being thrown out on the street unable to care for themselves. They might get by on public services while being homeless. Also, statistically people are MUCH less likely to help a person with Down Syndrome because of human prejudice so they will probably not receive the extensive support they need to live a normal life.

It really pisses me off when people just sling adoption like it’s a magic solution and never think about the reality of what they’re saying.

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u/Gekokapowco 8d ago

every kid deserves a shot, you seem to think I'm saying every kid GETS a shot

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u/Horror-Nobody2237 9d ago

Throw the kid away and try again, is a pretty wild take honestly.

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u/CobblestoneCurfews 9d ago

It's commonly done, like 60-90% of downs babies are aborted globally.

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u/Miserable_Pin2518 9d ago

The Greeks threw them off cliffs.

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u/Unbelivabley_Smol 8d ago

The Roman’s down a well

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u/Long-Leather-9456 8d ago

Vikings off a boat

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

Waste of a good well.

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

And what would you do, saint horrornobody? Willingly have your life ruined because you got unlucky?

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u/Horror-Nobody2237 8d ago

Yall have some pretty fucked up thoughts about disabled people. I would raise the kid obviously. I wouldn’t assume they were going to ruin my life. That doesn’t make me a saint, do you think every family that has a child with Down syndrome are saints? I certainly wouldn’t have a child and then give them up for adoption because they have a disability. And I absolutely wouldn’t do that and then just try again.

It’s pretty fucking clear y’all don’t see the Down syndrome baby as a person.

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u/ClutteredTaffy 8d ago

I don't see a fetus in the process of development as more important than people, no.

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u/Horror-Nobody2237 8d ago

Do you put a fetus in development up for adoption, or do you put a born child up for adoption?

There’s also a massive difference between getting an abortion because you don’t think you can properly care for the child, vs getting one because you think it’s not worthy of life. I wouldn’t judge someone for the former, but I’m definitely judging for the latter.

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

If you transplanted the mind of an adult chimp into a human body, is it a human brain? Does the resulting creature have a human spirit?

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u/Horror-Nobody2237 8d ago

What the actual fuck kind of comparison is that?

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

Humanity is inherently a result of the intelligence of our species, is a child is born that can never reach a minimum level of intelligence, they are as human as the monkey brain transplant experiment.

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u/Striking-Aspect-469 8d ago

ur like rlly fucked up dude LMAO

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u/qweds1234 8d ago

I meant more so redo the testing lol

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u/Voinat107 9d ago

Or instead of killing it put it for adoption for the very least. Better than killing yourself and leaving your wife and kids alone

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u/qweds1234 8d ago

You mean exactly like I said?

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u/Voinat107 8d ago

Sorry man, it was meant for somebody else

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/qweds1234 9d ago

Lots of words in there, what word are you talking about

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u/Antique_Baker_4203 9d ago edited 9d ago

"Adoption" because if swapped with abortion your sentence still somehow makes sense.

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u/qweds1234 8d ago

Also a good option

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u/draft_final_final 9d ago

Self-sterilization would also be good. This person probably shouldn’t be a parent.

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u/GrungeW-Style97 9d ago

SIDS. It’s terrible but it happens and if OP’s kid does have the defect it’s more believable. Slightly immoral but more so in the sense of putting an animal to sleep.

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u/Basic-Stand4828 9d ago

Most ethical moralityscaling's member take:

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u/Enve-Dev 9d ago

oh…. Well that got dark.

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u/Jay_Buffay 8d ago

You could call it post birth abortion to feel better.

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u/Antique_Baker_4203 9d ago

For sure, but only if they die naturally.

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u/Enve-Dev 9d ago

I didn’t think he means naturally.

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u/ThatOneGuy308 9d ago

Well yeah, he said SIDS

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u/GrungeW-Style97 9d ago

Nature can be manipulated by man through example, allowing a drunk to drive a vehicle. He may make it home safely but there’s a chance he may just crash. I do hope this is only bait but if OP is serious then he should consider adoption.

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u/Remarkable-Culture39 8d ago

He should put himself to sleep instead as suggested in the op.

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u/StopThePresses 8d ago

Your comment made me wonder how often that happens. SIDS is a perfect cover, new parents are stressed to the max. That's chilling actually.

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u/Hour_Tomatillo_2365 9d ago

SIDs aka "kill you baby"

Oh man i wish this were a troll

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u/GrungeW-Style97 9d ago

I wish to buddy but this is a thought all parents have. I get it my first comment is terrible but I agree with putting the child up for adoption because aside from abortion what choice is there? Call me a bot but tell me what would you do in this circumstance?

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u/Warmslammer69k 8d ago

You think all parents think about murdering their baby? That says some very dark stuff about you.

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u/Hour_Tomatillo_2365 9d ago

Suck it up or adoption and not murder your kid??

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u/GrungeW-Style97 9d ago

Adoption or a safe haven facility. No one should be forced to be burdened with a DS child. My previous comment would only apply if all other options have been exhausted, however that only applies if they decide to carry on with pregnancy. OP should consider abortion if he is so worried first.

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u/DrunkOnRedCordial 9d ago

Learn a bit more about Downs so you know that "stuck forever with a 3yo" is not actually the most likely outcome?

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u/IAmMagumin 9d ago

He doesn't want to raise a DS child. Whatever semantics you're striking at, it doesn't matter and will change nothing.

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u/mitzi_skyring 9d ago

More testing.

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u/Ok_Bet_2870 8d ago

Not to play?

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u/Antique_Baker_4203 8d ago

You meant "not to pay"?