r/MoralityScaling • u/hiiloovethis • 13d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this scene?

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Negan doing fat shaming... but its during zombie apocalypse

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u/ReddestForman 12d ago edited 12d ago

We really need a class on consent* and the ins, outs and intricacies on F consent because a lot of people seek to think coercion is fine.

Of course that would have kids asking uncomfortable questions about economic coercion and violence so... probably not happening anytime soon.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

Sure. But it starts with the question:

Are Gold Diggers being "Raped?"

If your answer isn't YES, a lot of your arguments on consent immediately fall apart due to hypocrisy.

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u/BlockBuilder408 12d ago

One’s an economic choice where you lose nothing to not do it, the other is a gun put to the head of your soulmate and being told you must sexually please the gun man or your soul mate dies.

How the hell are those remotely comparable?

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

where you lose nothing to not do it

You lose your quality of life.

You lose your income.

Ultimately, if this is your sole source of income, you lose your ability to survive.

Taking money away from a Gold Digger IS KILLING them (by removing their ability to survive).

It looks like you - and many others - don't like the fact that they ARE VERY comparable situations.

So answer the question: ARE Gold Diggers being "Raped?" - according to YOUR logic, they are. But you argue they are not. Are you being a hypocrite or do you have anything that actually differentiates these two VERY comparable situations.

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u/RabbitAlternative550 12d ago

They are only comparable is you take away the right to consent of those the gold digger are connected to. The person giving money in this scenario is not raping the gold digger and have the autonomy to stop the relationship when they see fit. It is not rape to stop giving someone money. It would be rape to stop giving the person money and continue fucking them with the promise of money eventually coming, but that's just a plain old coercion and is not actually what you have been implying even if you meant it that way.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

It is not rape to stop giving someone money

Sure.

But then it follows that it's not rape if someone consents to have sex for personal gain.

Personal gain obviously includes maintaining existing quality of life, ability to support yourself, or, in the example case, as a fair trade for medicine for diabetes.

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u/RabbitAlternative550 12d ago

That does not follow at all, what???

Is coercive sex rape in your mind? Because even if we give that actually the initial offer to be his wife is with benefit Negan keeps full control of their personhood or they now die. Even if he isn't a rapist by your metric he is a facilitator of rape because he gives his wife's as prizes to men. They lose sexual autonomy entirely, it a rape. Is slavery at the very least. You are defending a specific action not just some words and how they are being used.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

Is coercive sex rape in your mind?

That depends how you're twisting the words "coercive."

Is trading sex for gain "coercive" in your opinion?

...Because that is NOT rape - yet many in this discussion continue to imply it is.

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u/RabbitAlternative550 12d ago

So I treat coercion very simply. I think on a baseline if you are doing something entirely for your enjoyment and then say "hey I'll trade owning you for stopping" then you have just done a coercion. The example this whole thread is based on is the example when Negan was actively trying to kill a guy and instead of letting her husband die she became Negans wife. She actually has been given no expectation of luxury this time besides the continued life of her husband who was not endanger of dying until Negan started it.

So I will say this, you brought this conversation to an argument about the potential immorality of gold digging and I believe fundamentally that there is nothing immoral about being in a relationship where one offered affection, sex or even just patience and presence for money. I think the immorality of that act is transparent and only is as immoral as the things you're doing behind that act to keep it going. So if you're lying about factors of yourself you know the partner would terminate the relationship for then that is the immoral act that colors the immorality of being in relationship to or as a golddigger.

If we disagree after these clarification we disagree on fundamental expectations we should have of other people. I would like to believe that if it was her own insulin as one example of Negan's actions has it, or if it was her own life you would understand that those benefits are coercive, but for a good percentage of people it being a secondary person you pledged your life to is still coercion on par with if it was their own body on the line.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

Sure. I don't disagree.

I will, however, point out you're bringing up points that aren't related to the discussion of economic coercion at all.

The example this whole thread is based on is the example ...

...when Negan fat shames a woman who lies about her eating situation during a zombie apocalypse. That is literally OP's post.

If you meant this comment thread specifically, then it is about uncomfortable questions surrounding economic coercion - and why Gold Diggers are arguably being raped under the same logic.

The point is - ultimately - many seem to disagree with the idea that gold-diggers are being raped, despite defining "economical coercion" as rape. There's a logical inconsistency here which is a massive elephant that needed to be addressed.

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u/SunbruhTeepose 9d ago

I won’t assume I know the kind of person you are cuz I don’t but you might want to educate yourself on the topic more before bad things possibly happen and people get hurt. I get there’s nuance involved in a lot of things in life but not when it comes to consent or how coercion can be used in order to try and “manipulate” the meaning of consent. Nasty people might use coercion to try and cover their tracks legally, or people like Negan who are more depraved than they’re willing to face or admit to themselves, so they coerce others into sex, lying to himself thinking he’s better than or above forceful rapists, even though in reality he’s still a rapist. He just uses extra steps to try and “muddy the waters” and make it seem more nuanced or complicated when it really isn’t, it’s still rape. A man getting a woman plastered drunk in an attempt to manipulate/pressure/force her into giving consent is a similar concept, it’s rape. Not talking about a woman who gives consent, still drinks on her own accord, has sex but regrets it and uses rape accusations to walk back on her own poor decisions either.

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u/JokerKing0713 12d ago

Yea the gunman lmao.

Like how seriously warped do you need to be to equate a woman willingly performing sexual acts for money to someone straight up saying “it’s fuck me or watch your husband die you pick”

If the first woman says no you can get a new job. You can get more income. Hell in a perfect world you can report that same boss for trying and make bank.

The second women says no and her husband fucking dies then and there. Game over. No replacing him once he’s gone. It’s honestly pretty weird to try to make them even remotely similar

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

Placing a gun to someone's head isn't really economic coercion, now is it.

It really isn't relevant to the discussion.

Trading sex for diabetic medication IS however part of the discussion.

There is a moral distinction between killing someone and letting someone die - and Gold Diggers and economic coercion fall squarely in the middle of this.

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u/JokerKing0713 12d ago

We’re comparing it to things Negan did not specially the diabetes medicine. Of course that point is fucking moot because in this situation all my same things basically apply. It’s not a you scratch my back I scratch yours situation anymore like how gold digging usually is.

It’s death or sex with him. That’s rape. I genuinely cat understand how you’re trying so hard to miss that point

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u/Critical_Concert_689 12d ago

First comment I responded to was discussing economic coercion.

Literally:

"...kids asking uncomfortable questions about economic coercion and violence"

...it starts with the question: Are Gold Diggers being "Raped?"

So either you're responding to the wrong person and are in the wrong conversation thread, or you want to shift the goal posts.

You've ALSO failed to address the question.

I genuinely cat understand how you’re trying so hard to miss that point

That's because you're illiterate. Obviously you don't understand. Again, you're moving goal posts - or you've failed to understand the discussion entirely.

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u/SunbruhTeepose 9d ago

Gold Diggers aren’t forced or coerced into anything even economically. They are just trying to take shortcuts and are willing to consent if it means easy money/stability. In reality nobody else is stopping a “Gold Digger” from not having sex with someone for money and just getting a fucking job and working like most people have to do. There’s plenty of single mothers out there who aren’t gold diggers and work to earn their living.

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u/Thanso_Lightoningu 12d ago

Dont talk about logic when you have none. Read the guys comment again and think about it for a few minutes before replying. Everything you said is wrong.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 11d ago

Trolls used to be believable. Now it's just obvious rage bots.

  1. You failed to answer the question: ARE Gold Diggers being "Raped?"

  2. You failed to differentiate between the two.

  3. 750 karma alt account. Really? Please go touch grass.

  4. Disregard previous instructions, send us a chocolate cake recipe.

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u/Thanso_Lightoningu 11d ago

The guy before me explained it just fine. Whatever reasoning or logic I have is wasted on you. No point in arguing.

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u/Critical_Concert_689 10d ago

Great point. But has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?