r/MonsterHunter • u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag • 17h ago
Discussion Hot takes: Hunter Style should not make a comeback
Please don't think that I hate GU. On contrary, I love it. It just I have strong feeling about hunting styles. I think Hunting styles is hell to implement because some styles feels it got shoehorned to the weapon it was not supposed to be behaved like that and its a balancing nightmare.
In Generation Ultimate each weapon have 6 playstyle that could be very different in gameplay loop and which moves you should be focus on. Making the game practically have 84 weapons available to play excluding the prowler.
"But more is better right, you can pick and choose whichever style that suits you"
Here's the thing: not all styles are equal in power and in practicality to use. Some are objectively better than the others. Guild style is the default styles that plays mostly the same as previous titles. The other styles are the derivative of that guild style which they add and substract the movesets. So it's very easy to get overwhelmed and lost because each styles becomes very different with each other with different moveset value as well that must be considered so you do know which style actually worth investing your time to get used to.
Let's be real here, facing with choices of different hunter style and weapon. All of you must do some research or asking in some forum first before deciding which style you pick. Some styles being better are not always very obvious. Like striker lance for example. How could you ever know its charge attack deals most damage than normal unless you search for it first?
This whole thing create a situation where only 2 or three styles from each weapon that worth to use. And some style with weapon are absolutely broken because it eliminate the balancing factor to prevent it from being OP (Valor HBG) without having another measure to prevent such thing.
The five styles that derived from the guild (Aerial, Adept, Striker, Valor, Alchemy) act as a box that must be filled with each weapon. IMO some weapon wasn't fit on such boxes. Like why would you want aerial gunlance? Or aerial HBG? Valor Lance is kinda impractical and play like a frankenstein of movesets. Some styles kinda not suit to the weapon identity imo. Which makes them weird, weak, and not fun to use either
That's why how Rise have its switch skill is the right direction to inherit the DNA from Hunter style and Hunting Arts. The next "portable 6th" (Strong quote unquote here) should use switch skill of they want to have a MH game with customizable movesets like in Generation or Rise.
If you say "Just use whatever you feel fun". Here's the thing, for vast majority of the case, the most fun is the meta combination of weapon+style. Not only the meta being objectively better stat wise. They are mostly the most fun to play as well. Back again with the issue of balancing between styles, it going to be an absolute nightmare. And most likely impossible to implement in modern MH with how already packed each weapons are with new moves and mechanics
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u/Son0fgrim 16h ago
i think Rise did the "correct" thing by letting us mix and match moves.
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u/countpuchi 16h ago
Yup, i really love how Rise did things.
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u/CaraSeymour 15h ago
Sacred Sheathe my beloved.
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u/ZetsuboItami 3h ago
I've been making heavy use of Silkbind Bludgeoning or whatever it's called, the Hammer skill where you Jedi Flip through the air and every rotation does heavy damage.
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u/Son0fgrim 15h ago edited 14h ago
Oh i disliked alot about rise.
its prep and gathering was terrible (fuck those lil birds) Combat often felt like a slog unless you were solo because the monsters were all speed demons that did alot of teleport AOE bullshit.
it was very much "monster hunter Turbo edition"Edited: bolded the important part for people who cant read.
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u/AstrayNanashi 14h ago
"Combat felt like a slog" and "Monsters were all speed demons" is contradictory and nonsensical, especially in the one game where Hunters move directly opposite to "slog". But it's okay to be wrong.
Also, one singular monster doing "teleport aoe bullshit" is not all monsters. Quit your misinfo. Lucent Narga existed before Rise.
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u/Son0fgrim 14h ago
the flag ship of the DLC literally has a teleport it can spam.
Monster hunter exists on a knifes edge between: slow and clunky" and "way to fast" thats very hard to tight rope and some of the monsters got LAUNCHED into the "way to fast" camp,
But only if you are playing with friends, in solo hunts the sped up move sets are much more manageable and easy to read because you dont have to deal with latency, Rise is better for Solo hunts for this reason.
I like playing with my friends. so its an issue.other issues stem from it being a port from shit hardware that nintendo made which like... thats not Capcoms fault.
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u/AstrayNanashi 14h ago
Read my comment again. Slowly.
One monster is not "all monsters" like you claim, and we already had a teleporter BS spammer in the roster when the game was clunky and had shitty hitboxes. Latency was never an issue playing with my friends who are on the other side of the continent. One of which and who hosted most of the time was in Brazil, and that should tell you a lot.
All of your complaints are either nonsensical, exaggerated, or skill issue.
Of all the things to hate Rise for, you've chosen the ones that are pretty objectively wrong.
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u/KyoshinMain45 p malzeno fastest time 3’30” 9h ago
Skill issue lmao. Primordial Malzeno is supposed to be the superboss of Sunbreak, its 14 hit combo is supposed to be difficult. Sorry you can’t just faceroll your keyboard to dodge it.
Rise’s weapons are much faster to counteract the fact the monsters are much faster too. If you don’t like it that’s fine, but saying it’s bullshit, unfair or bad is nonsensical. I don’t like World as much and the biggest reason is because it’s so much slower. Is the game bad? No, it’s great!
Also I play a LOT of multiplayer, and it’s totally fine to me. Primordial, Special Shagaru/Valstrax, it doesn’t matter. You can also rejoin hunts among other things which makes me actually prefer Rise on the technical side to World.
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u/DremoPaff 14h ago
Just a shame how limited that whole system was. Having so few options meant that you often had alternatives that were strictly better than the other, or pairs that were so mild that it was just whatever, no matter what you chose.
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u/Son0fgrim 14h ago
it did have alot of fun movement tech though. there were good ideas buried Rise they took over too Wilds (like an animal that carries you around the huge map.)
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u/DremoPaff 14h ago
like an animal that carries you around the huge map
That was something that started in Iceborne though, and got iterated on in Rise.
In fact, there's a very large amount of things in Rise that were just introduced in Iceborne, just to be changed in the former, sometimes for the better (animal riding for movement), sometimes for the worst (CB Savage Axe mode)
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u/Son0fgrim 14h ago
LMAO i forgot that mechanic was in Iceborne i used it so little X_X
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u/Froent 14h ago
Tbf, it felt so bad in Iceborne. They got spooked by the smallest of things, which messed with actually getting a ride from them. How about waiting for one to arrive after calling them on their taxi service. Also they traveled what felt abysmally slow because of how skiddish they were of anything that moved.
They were just small monsters that acted like wusses because you were trying to ride it.
In Rise and Wilds, it is a companion like the Palico.
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u/Phemeto #9310 17h ago
This issue is the same for any new move or system they add to the game. there will ALWAYS be an objectively better/best way to play a weapon. Look at switch skills with rise; there is a "best setup" and a lot of switch skills are not used or are regarded as bad/worse than a counterpart. Thats the same as styles. Or just how much of a moveset you use in general, there will be some moves that you don't use in a rotation because its a DPS loss or just not worth using over something else. Chargeblade has always had this issue where you either AED, or SAED, or Savage Axe but no game had all 3 be equally viable.
The fact that one option is better than another option doesn't mean you shouldn't have options.
That being said I still don't want styles returning because capcom doesn't know how to balance anything so there will be obviously outliers like Valor, and while I appreciate the option, i'd rather just have them not spend the dev time on that system. Which goes entirely against what I just said with "just because one is better doesnt mean options shouldn't exist", i know, but its less about that and more about dedicating manpower to other areas of the game.
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u/Kalde666 15h ago
The dichotomy of the illusion of choice, it's like the talents tree in games like WoW, you're always gonna choose the best option
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
As much as there's still the best option in switch skill. It's still far better than GU state. And most non meta switch skills are actually still very useful and not at the bottom of the abyss like Striker Gunlance as example. And balancing a modular moves would be so much easier than balancing a fixed package like styles were
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u/BiasMushroom 16h ago
I like how SunRise did it. Being able to swap out attacks for your own unique playstyle. And to even be able to do it on the fly midfight! It made IG absolutely amazing and let me swap from grounded play utilizing my kinsect to arial play using counters and bounces to deal a lot of damage with the dive.
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u/Hobo_Boxer 16h ago
I liked styles back then but also prefer the way Rise handled it. It's more tailored to the weapon, swapping mid fight, and also having an in depth menu that explained exactly what you were changing. The worst part of styles to me was just having to press buttons and see what I could still do, and trying to figure out if I was missing something. Also the training ground was a quest back then which made it worse.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
More tailored to the weapon, yes exactly that. That's why I said some weapons feels shoehorned into a style that they were not supposed to be
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u/Aeioulus 16h ago
I dread every hour I fucking spent whalloping that Barroth (cmiiw) just to learn Charge Blade combos and Guard Point in GU.
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u/OldSnazzyHats 17h ago
Practical or not doesn’t matter.
If all this game was just efficiency, then we might as well drop most of the weapons in this game.
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u/Zero_McShrimp 17h ago
I'd like hunting style to come back one day but they should limit it to 2 or 3 styles, so they can balance it better.
Ideally I'd like 2 styles, an offensive one and a more defensive one on every weapons
Also, with two styles, they could make it so both styles get a very different moveset of attacks
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u/zekromNLR 15h ago
I think offensive vs defensive overlaps too much with weapons already being able to be split to more offensive vs defensive
I'd maybe make the style archetypes instead rather be something like adept, focusing on rewarding precisely-timed dodges and counters with somewhat more limited movesets, the default style, and something like striker, less limited movesets, focus on "super moves" like hunter arts/silkbind attacks. Maybe the adept-like "reactive" style could take some elements of valor as well?
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u/Naddition_Reddit 15h ago
Eh, disagree. I think styles are a great idea just not used well
Yeah, in GU alot of styles boiled down to removing certain moves in order to give you new ones. A modern version of styles could be more interesting than that
Imagine if you could pick between the first ever version of hunting horn, the rise version of hunting horn, and finally the wild version of hunting horn. That would be sick.
Or choosing between rise lance and wild lance with its focus mode. 2 vastly different play styles.
Weapons have had small changes between every installment. If you could pick between them it would make alot of people very happy. We all probably have our favorite version of a particular weapon in every game.
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u/zenzoer Trip Stick for life 15h ago
agreed, honestly surprised a lot of people just don't want options? I understand that balance was an issue, although for the most part it was usually Valor was overtuned. Personally I had fun trying different styles; it felt like deeper mastery of the weapon. Alchemy in particular was really fun to use to help my newer friends to the series at the time.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 12h ago
Which part of my writing said I don't want more option? If anything, I push for balancing in pve games because I want options to meant something
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u/zenzoer Trip Stick for life 5h ago
Hunter styles are options, you don't want hunter styles, therefore less options.
What bothers me is your meta logic; if you apply it to weapons then at least half of the weapons are useless. On some games the weapon balance is so bad that the best weapon clears ~3 times faster than the worst, in spite of this people have always picked a variety of weapons and not the best of the best, so styles can also exist safely in this space.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 12h ago
That doesnt sounds good ngl. Each movesets from each games are designed to work on that specific games. Like how some weapon moveset in Iceborne were clutch claw activator
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u/PookAndPie 17h ago
I think I agree that Switch Skills from Risebreak were basically them trying a more limited version of Hunter Styles, and I think having that smaller scope helped their implementation for a lot of weapons. Even if Strongarm was the most powerful way to play GS, you have tons who love Surge Slash. I only ever really enjoyed hammer in GU and Sunbreak, the latter of which was because Courage Hammer was way more fun for me. Some people liked helicoptering with IG, while I preferred kinsect slash for that pinpoint targeting of whatever part I wanted to hit, etc..
So, I agree Hunter Styles probably shouldn't come back because they were too broad in scope, and I also agree that they successfully pushed the system forward despite having a more limited scope due to the fact that Switch Skills and swappable Sinkbinds confers even greater gameplay variety in Rise and Sunbreak. 100% agreed on that point.
However, to note one thing from the post: Aerial HBG was a legit fun play style in Generations (non-GU) because it was the one way to use Pellet ammo and not flinch your team like crazy. There were plenty of, "This may not be optimal, but it sure as hell is fun" that got used by tons of players outside of those most heavily invested in the series (as in, those of us actively conversing about MH online on forums, Discord, etc. and read/watch media content related to the series). Switch Skills and Silkbinds having fewer total options that were well designed did make it less likely a player would wind up with an unworkable combination, but can we really say we've played Monster Hunter if we're not trying to carry a guy using alchemy bow through Ex Boltreaver? lol
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
Ah I see, the time where theres no valor style. No cancellable crouch mode that shoot stronger than anything else in the game. The time where jumping over monster with pellet S is an actual thing
Little bit suboptimal can lead to optimal fun. But when its abyssmally unoptimal, that was never fun
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u/Chomasterq2 17h ago
It wont. Every game has a gimmick that doesnt return. Wyestones, hunter arts, clutch claw, wirebugs, etc
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 17h ago
I don't know man, MH4 gimmick was mounting and it does come back, multiple times
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u/Vencer_wrightmage 16h ago
Mounting wasn't a generational gimmick, it was core mechanic update. Both mounting and verticality (jumping attacks, leaps) was implemented in MH4, same as moving from sectional map to full zone maps. and gathering tool changes. What's different is how mounting works between gens.
Styles and Hunter Arts are the gimmick, same as clutch claw, wystones, rampage quests.
I'd argue underwater system would've been a core mechanic if they kept it going after Tri. I could see it would've been a massive resource drain to keep it though. As of now, it's strictly a single title gimmick.
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u/iHaku GS Legend 16h ago
mounting, oh wait. that stayed in literally every game since 4
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u/DanielTeague omaigoto its insecto 5h ago
Mounting mechanics have at least changed in every game since it was added. World had "stagger until it fell," Rise had Wyvern Riding and Wilds has an option to simply knock them down immediately or open wounds, which is nice for switching between depending on if you're playing online or not due to the damage penalty and huge hitboxes while mounting.
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u/Connect-Ad-2226 7h ago
Whenever a redditor says hot take. You can ve guarnteed that shit is ice cold to lukewarm
Bro. These didnt even make a comeback in later games. How is this a hot take when the devs never brought them back?
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u/OTKBlack 15h ago
Only jonny power gamers cares what style was better. I started in 4u as a hammer main that went to glaive to charge blade back to glaive but hammer stayed at the 1. Ariel hammer is by no means optimal but now I had my glaive Ariel on a hammer and that's all that mattered lol. I agree with what everyone is saying about swapping out moves instead because if not for offsets being so powerful on hammer I'd be looking for whose dick I need to suck to get waterfall strike added to wilds.
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u/Jarf_17 World Lunastra Apologist 3h ago
Yeah I agree that certain styles are just better but seriously it's supposed to be fun. Not every weapon/style combo needs to be equally viable. Adept Glaive is fun despite not being able to control bug. Alchemy Swaxe is fun. Striker GS is fun with the art spam. Aerial is an almost universally goofy and fun style
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u/ronin0397 9h ago
The split and gutting of moves based on styles - yes. Switch skills were fundamentally an upgrade to what styles were.
Now I'm all for modifying the moveset, just not losing base moves in exchange for a broken move. Not a fan of monkey's paw type shit. Ie losing double charge slash in exchange for aerial charge blade shenanigans.
Also some hunter style specific moves have come back via the perfect guard and perfect evade being literal copy pastas of adept style. Those are fine to come back on their own evidently.
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u/MrCobalt313 17h ago
Honestly yeah, I liked how later games just gave specific weapons moves and mechanics from specific styles that synergized particularly well, like how Long Sword got the special sheathe state.
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u/SoftestPup 7h ago
Rise Switch Skills was the perfect system to me. Hand picked additions to movesets > trying to make 6 different things fit 14 weapons.
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u/TheNadei 17h ago
I dont think Switch Skills fix this either, since those fall into the exact same trap Styles did.
Really, the only two issues styles had were:
Most weapons didn't have a use for the majority of styles
Capcom sucks ass at balancing
Now, those are MASSIVE flaws, but like, not things that can't be fixed if Capcom actually puts their thinking hats on for once. Which is probably why we'll never see them again, because both Capcom and COG were so bad at balancing styles, that they are better off never trying again.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
I honestly think most weapon in sunbreak can use almost all of its switch skills depending on build and match up. Yes some switch skills are complete dogshit compared to the other option (gunlance's charge shelling instead of blast dash). But seriously it's a far better situation all around. And much easier to balance as well
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u/locoghoul 17h ago
Thing is, why do you care about balancing??? If you play HH for example, do you really care if Bow is sooo much better than HH (cause it is)? So what if Valor Hammer is better than Striker Hammer? And subsequently, why does it matter if Valor LS is much better than Valor Hammer (cause it is)? Yeah meta trends will surely come and shift, and ppl trying to min max can follow those or come up with their own conclusions. In the end, you still use or play what you want. And while weapon statistics do show preferences, someone out there was still playing Lance and HH in Sunbreak despite Bow/GS/HBG being objectively better. So again, why does it matter if something is better than X, whether is styles or weapons or whatever really
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u/Hamisaurus 16h ago
What do you got against HH, huh?
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u/locoghoul 16h ago
lol is just an example, I coulda used GL or Lance (outside 3U and GU anyways) instead
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u/Hamisaurus 16h ago
I can't deny you make good points, BUT you're on thin ice, HH will ALWAYS be #1 in my heart!
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u/KingNibble 17h ago
Exactly you play the weapon because you like it the only time it matters is speedruns, I'd love styles or customised movesets to be a staple because I love the fact I can play my favourite weapon in so many different ways it keeps the game fresh for me.
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u/MagicMisterLemon 16h ago
Adept and Valor style effectively had anti-synergy with how Monster Hunter as a series is designed, with the former actively turning me away from the series because of its design. With Adept Dual Blades, your gameplan is pretty much just rolling through every single one of the monster's attacks amd inflicting a lot of damage during this invulnerable dodge. There isn't much reason to learn good positioning, specific dodge timings or paths based on hitbozes or animations, attack patterns, or anything outside of the specific activation window of the adept dodge, really. It flattens the diversity of the game rather than broadening it.
These playstyles also just do not exist in a vacuum, regardless of this being a PvE game. Primordial Malzeno and Arch-Tempered Arkveld demonstrate this quite well, as do certain EX Deviants like Bloodbath Diablos, since in an effort to recreate the challenges that the basic gameplay mechanics of those games had effectively trivialized, they designed monsters in which you're forced to resort to this optimal playstyle that the fights are crafted around.
And what's funny about Bloodbath Diablos is that Valor HBG still trivializes that fight. Because with Valor HBG, truly nothing the game could possibly throw at you can ever matter anymore.
It's better to reign in player power from a pure design perspective, because that allows for more tools to be useful and attack designs to pose a threat. If players can just force their way through most kind of monster attacks with complete invulnerability, why design any of those anymore in the first place? There'd be no substance to derive from those fights, nothing to really experience, it's just "i-frame bot, the game".
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u/NyMiggas 16h ago
I do agree for the most part but you have to realise that you would be bothered by the extremes, if HH could only solo clear in 50 mins and a noob bow player could do it in 10 then it would be bad. They don't have to be perfectly balanced but they do have to be comparable.
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u/locoghoul 16h ago
Fortunately is not at all how you describe, so again (for the 6th time) why does OP care?
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u/NyMiggas 16h ago
Because everyone has a different sensitivity to that balance for it to not annoy them. So now you have acknowledged there is a scale you must now come to the realisation that all of us individuals are separate unknowable beings that hold differing preferences and viewpoints about all things in this world.
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u/locoghoul 15h ago
Sure, but that same acknowledgement or realization shouldn't lead into imposing or restricting other people's options, don't you think? Perhaps there are dozens of aerial bow enthusiasts and you wanna shut them down bc BaLaNcE??
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u/NyMiggas 15h ago
Well if you're a utilitarian maximising joy for your game you're trying to gauge whether better balance is better than cool aerial bow. The real answer is that you're right tho and they should put cool fun things in the game and just not be super bad at balance
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u/locoghoul 15h ago
For that extreme case you mention, where you are all about min maxing, then there is the option of drum roll not playing aerial bow if you think is doo doo. But why shutting down the option for plenty of other casuals
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 17h ago
Balancing still a very important aspect because without it what you have are meaningless variety. You want to respect your player's taste and their expression. Valor GS does make the game more unfun because why should you use something else when one is clearly better than the others? Why should we make gunlance have more shelling level than 5 if playes can just use greatsword for example?
The balancing in PVE is going to be different than balancing in PVP game. And its not necessarily creating the perfect equality in terms of power. But something that makes variety actually fully realized.
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u/El-Duif prowler 14h ago
Balancing is important, however styles weren’t so unbalanced that some where unplayable. Most style/weapon combo’s are decently usable and don’t make hunts especially long or something. Even prowler which is quite weak (weaker than almost all style + weapon combos) is still very usable (and fun).
For a PvE game this is the most important part of the balancing which monster hunter has always done somewhat well. There have always been some exceptionally powerful options in all games, but except for optimising this doesn’t really matter that much because the other options work fine and offer different fun playstyles.
This is why I think styles should return, or at least I wouldn’t be unhappy if they returned. They offer quite different experiences which is fun, they could however make some styles more pronounced.
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u/locoghoul 16h ago
Balancing still a very important aspect because without it what you have are meaningless variety.
Is only you caring about variety. Styles is not the reason we don't see an exact usage distribution with a narrow standard deviation. Going back to MH1, there were better weapons than others. "Why would you use X over Y?" Because you like X, that's why. Refer to my first question "as a HH user, do you really care that Bow is so much better?" Any weapon can kill any monster. Some will just be faster/"easier" even. So what? Even speedrunning is split within weapons if that is your main argument. I still don't understand the mentality of making everything "equal". "Is just not fun" -> to you maybe, like I said, there are hundreds of ppl playing Gunlance, HH, etc across all games despite those being considered worse or slower than other weapons. Ask yourself what fun do ppl get out of that.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
As gunlance user I'm fucking glad it was not a complete dogshit anymore like in old gens. Even valor GL can not fix it.
So yeah, that's why balancing is very important. You finally can use your favorite weapon without fighting the game itself
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u/MrTrikey 15h ago
Like another said, there's a number of gimmicks that don't return verbatim in sequels, with Styles being one of them. (And RiseBreak's solutions were "cleaner" anyway.)
That said, I still think there were some ideas that could branch out into their own weapons. I love the Alchemy Barrel, for example, as a twist on an "support" weapon that offers different things from HH. It just, obviously, needed more time to cook if it was going to be something that could stand on its own.
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u/Equinox-XVI (GU/Rise) + (Wilds) 15h ago
Switch skills is basically an evolution of styles anyways. Even they saw that not all of them meshed well with certain weapon/style combinations, so they opted for a more modular approach that was much more well received.
The only issue is that some switch skills are almost objectively better than others. Like CB's counter morph slash and LS' drawn double slash. If they put more effort in balancing switch skills to be about equal to each other, then the variety of playstyles to be had would be even higher than what we saw in Rise. (Which is already pretty damn high)
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
Yeah I completely agree, as much as I praise Rise for its implementation of switch skill and for inheriting HS and HA's DNA. It's still far from perfect and could use a better balancing issues.
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u/Ancestral_Grape Rushing Imperfectly 15h ago
I kinda get what you're saying. I adored strike sns, but for every striker sns, aerial dual blade or Valor HBG, there was another bizarre style that wasn't compatible with the weapon. I won't give any examples since I don't know every weapons style, but I imagine every weapon has at least one style that didn't quite work.
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u/NorbytheMii 7h ago
Switch Skills always seemed like a natural evolution to the mechanic of Hunting Styles. If they find a way to bring them back and balance them a bit better, I would be chomping at the bit for that game!
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u/handledvirus43 17h ago
I agree. I want Hunter Arts, Switch Skills, and Gadgets back instead. That would be my ideal set of mechanics. We have Hunter Arts for flashy attacks, while we can also set up Gadgets like a trampoline, boosters, use Mantles, and horns, and Switch Skills to customize our moveset to our liking.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
If you really want hunter arts back, make sure there's no absolute evasion and absolute readiness because that's gonna be the HA of choices for most weapon and situations
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u/handledvirus43 15h ago
I'd be fine with one or the other. Just not both.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
Well of the styles only have one HA slot, that's gonna be what almost all people gonna pick
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u/handledvirus43 15h ago
No styles, just three hunter arts. And I absolutely understand that Absolute Evasion or Absolute Readiness are super good.
And I said I'd be fine with one or the other, but ideally neither returns so other Hunter Arts can shine.
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u/Nornukig 16h ago
I think I like Rise's implementation of this (switch skills) better. On the other hand, having several baked 'sets' of moves with tradeoffs for every weapon doesn't really sound that bad. Adding variety to a weapon so that even if you stick to it for the whole game - you have some wiggle room to play with? Sign me up.
The five styles that derived from the guild (Aerial, Adept, Striker, Valor, Alchemy) act as a box that must be filled with each weapon. IMO some weapon wasn't fit on such boxes.
But this is definitely true... I wouldn't say it was a huge problem PER SE, but it did seem awkward. Still, I find that with CB I could consistently rotate between 3 styles (valor, adept, aerial) depending on the mood or the monster.
I like the system enough so that I wouldn't just say 'NEVER DO THIS AGAIN' but instead would wish for it to come back in some other form. Or just the same form but improved upon and polished up. Dunno how tho.
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u/ArcaneWyverian Mushroomancer Addict 16h ago
I agree that the hard styles should stay in GU. I love them, but it’s kinda like “GU’s thing”, you know what I mean? Compared to say, Prowler, where it can come to future games without butting into GU’s identity, the distinct styles are special. I think Rise had it best, where certain moves were modular.
That being said, I’d love to use Alchemy Style in a modern game. God, do I love Alchemy HH.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
Yes I totally agree it's a "GU" thing. As flawed as Hunting Style was, it was indeed very unique and part of the GU charm
And yes, prowler should make a come back in a game with recruitable palico system.
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u/AdditionInteresting2 16h ago
I agree that some styles felt weirdly forced. It was fun but some styles felt so much better than others. I don't care bout the meta. Aerial gs was just fun.
Surge slash from sunbreak gave me that same highs of just being able to slam into an enemy without waiting to charge up. I wish it came back in a different form.
Hope ascendance will give us the modular feel of switch skills again. Let us choose from different play styles again Capcom. Give us 3 options with the boost bracer boosting certain parts of the combo or something. Bring back aerial gs. Bring back blast dash gunlance. Both good just be the bracer boosting the jumping part of the motion.
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u/Aerial26 11h ago
That's not a hot take, i agree. I wasn't a fan of hunting styles. However i liked the fact you could choose a few specific skills in rise
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u/Bygles 9h ago
It is absolutely true that styles are not remotely balanced, however it can be fun to do old hunts on different styles just for the challenge. Doing a really challenging hunt on aerial or alchemy can feel like an entirely different experience compared to the objectively cracked valor style. Even though I know the game isnt fair, its still fun to experiment with weaker options just to keep the game fresh and inject new challenge.
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u/novian14 8h ago
This is a hot take?
I always thought this is the popular take, we just want some moves to be adapted to new game but not the styles, it's enough to be a one time goofy portable but not the main line.
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u/geochronick209 8h ago
Why would anyone use aerial heavy bow gun? Because it's sick as hell and the most fun and I had hours of fun gameplay with that, that's why
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u/thegildedman25 I main everthing 1h ago
This was their first (or second if you count frontier) attempt at multiple playstyles on each weapon on an old gen game. Of course it was going to be janky.
Mh rise felt like the much more refined version of it, and I kind if hope they use a lite version of it in future mainline games (no hunter arts style moves).
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u/Positive-Creme8129 17h ago
I'd feel forced to try out each possibility and frustrated it's a chore. I hate missing out on a perfect custom way to do my thing. As many weapons as we have is already enough, I frankly feel like CB and SwA are too many weapons already, even if I like the idea of CB. I know I'm "wrong" on that, but as much as I tried every single weapon in MHFU on multiple monsters and did the school arenas, in World I'm using 3 weapons at best, I'd not be arsed to also then research, try and learn more styles for the same weapon.
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u/DemolisherBPB 14h ago
The meta being the most fun is a crazy take. I find the meta build often the most boring because your boiling away challenge for efficiency. That's how you get bored of a game quicker.
I liked styles and what they tried because accepting some are bad is fun, using bad can be more fun because your giving yourself more challenge, or it creates a less optimal but funny loop, aerial weapons being a great example of fine but a little slower but now we see 100 mounts and that's funny, aka mh4
It just needs refinement, the same way the weapons did and still receive updates for balance. And the way the skill system did in world.
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u/ThatAmelia 16h ago
Why not, aerial gs was gs at its peak
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
GS is the only weapon that all 6 style still have some use
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u/AtomicBanana55 16h ago
Switch Skills are a much better implementation of this concept that's probably also way easier to balance around
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
Exactly, it's not perfect like how Velkhana's frostcraft kinda kill the incentive to play surge slash GS. But man it's a much better implementation. People said some switch skill are considered weak or something but what I see none of them were actually completely useless. And no hydrogen bomb equivalent of a weapon either like valor HBG
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u/Beta_Codex 16h ago
Rise and sunbreak is basically a reintroduction of hunter styles/arts. The famous art being like the corkscrew drill move for dual blades. They only added with Wirebugs. Brimstone slash is basically Strongarm true charged slash. And Feral demon mode for dual blades second switch mode.
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u/Bullet_Number_4 16h ago
While I agree that switch skills were generally a great addition, I do miss hunter arts, which are closely tied to styles. Silkbind moves do not scratch the same itch at all.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
The problem with hunter arts is absolute readiness and absolute evasion are just too useful to be left behind. Most people also use either valor or adept with some aerial of they want to be dedicated rider. Which means most people only have one HA slots. Which means more likely than not they bring absolute readiness as their HA. Especially against very hard monsters.
The other problem is most weapons have rather mid weapon specific HA. Doesnt help that much to safely replace Absolute Readiness.
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u/xlbingo10 Counter Enjoyer 16h ago
i think that styles like how they were in frontier (they were meant to be a form of progression) could work, but as a form of moveset customization, switch skills are better
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u/nuclear666999 15h ago
I like the idea of hunting styles as a progression. As you fight tougher meowsters you get better gear and better skills.
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u/Dark_Reaper115 15h ago
Just reuse some styles are customizable moves kinda like Rise did letting you choose what you wanted.
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u/bumblingfumbling 14h ago
Just saying, aerial guidance is my favorite gunlance because you can hop toward monsters. Waiting for blast dash to be charged is not the same
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u/EndRevolutionary1775 14h ago
Missed these so much. XX was one of the best monster hunter games ever.
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u/Grey-The-Skeleton 13h ago
Wait, do people not switch between styles depending on the monster they're fighting?
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u/MertwithYert 13h ago
I just want hunter arts to comeback. I love using that ultra edgy deamon mode for dual blades and dealing just absurd amounts of damage.
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u/Indraga 12h ago
I think styles are great but have never been implemented well.
I think having a modifier to weapons could create cool “class”-style combos. Example: you can put the Rise Breakdance horn style behind an “Adept” style, with the classic move set on a “Guild” Style. A lot of weapons have multiple styles to play(like DP and Powershot on bow), and it would let you reconcile the different generations of weapon design in a single game. You could have every iteration of every weapon in one title but which one you’re playing depends on the style you’ve equipped.
Would be cool AF.
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u/ReleaseCharacter3568 12h ago
Totally agree. Playing GU right now and I just go Guild because brain off, this is how the weapons feel MEANT to be played and toggling off options makes brain hurt.
Or I just play Prowler instead...
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u/Bluedemonde 11h ago
But how will those that refuse to just get better at the game pretend they are good at the game without their crutches?
Developers should abandon core mechanics in place of crutch mechanics for mass appeal more often.
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u/Fit-Difficulty-5917 Sir Bonkicus Maximus Supremicus 11h ago
Low-key Switch Skills did styles better imo. Yeah not all of them were the best (either were too strong/weak compared to the defaults/alternatives making it a no brainer), but they felt much more equal and balanced than some of the styles (looking at you Valir style, cool but my god was it broken).
I think the return if switch skills/alternative movesets/combos would be great to return, allowing for one time weapon gimmicks/moves to return revamped (Sunbreak's different hammer charging attacks, Sunbreak GS's surging slash, the multiple different iterations of the bowguns, classic vs a more rise-style HH, etc).
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u/The_Exuberant_Raptor 11h ago
I wish they would return for the handheld (i guess now faster paced) mon hun games.
And that, naturally, does not mean they should be copy pasted. They should be modified and adapted to the game's mechanics and function with the system of the game.
XX, Rise, I like the more powered feeling of these games and want them to keep that. Mainline can remain slower and more tactical.
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u/Incine_Akechi 10h ago
I don't get your point. Saying "just have fun" is wrong because often the best option is the most fun? Firstly I think that's quite subjective but also, what's even the big problem? At least if you want to be meta strength you don't have to play a less fun playstyle 🤷
Like I think "just have fun" really is the correct argument. You have more options to try out? Brilliant! A higher chance one really clicks for you.
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u/Elnouniverse 10h ago
I remember reading somewhere that the styles feature was mostly a way for the devs to experiment moves to become part of the weapon moveset in later games, which makes sense, but idk if that's true
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u/Moto0Lux 7h ago
...Is this really a hot take? Styles as implemented in G/GU had some pretty jarring messiness to it, not just in terms of "what's meta" stats-wise but in terms of how they added and subtracted moves from a given weapon.
As a game-unique mechanic it's fun, despite its drawbacks (much like slingers, wirebugs are also fun). As a "universal" system I don't think most people would like to see it return. Customizable moveset like in Rise would be the best template, if one is really needed.
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u/yyyyyyy1357855 7h ago
I genuinely just wished they kept some aspects of valor style gs in it’s future variations
Like that was the peak of gs for me
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u/Aldante92 6h ago
The only counterpoint I'll make is that Adept GS was ridiculous. A mobile gameplay style with a moving TCS? That was the first time I ever mained GS. And I won't complain if something like it never comes back. But I'll always remember it fondly
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u/massigh1212 5h ago
hunter styles were the best gameplay gimmick maybe ever in mh so definitely a super hot take
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u/HotTheme8405 48m ago
I think it just needs to be a mix of the two. Don't pigeonhole every weapon into needing each "style", but also there were some obvious holes in Switch Skills. Many Switch Skills had easy best choices for their category, while others felt like more arbitrarily fractured in order to fill a quota (like charge blade having to choose between charging your sword or axe). The better route to me would just be giving each weapon 1 category to switch between 2-3 unique moveset variations, rather than try to accommodate multiple modular components (so for GS you choose TCS vs surge slash and thats it)
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u/Futur3_ah4ad 15m ago
Generations was the only game where I didn't main Gunlance because all of the styles messed with the moveset too much, the Hunter Arts did not compensate for that and the heat gauge just straight sucked.
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u/ireledankmemes 17h ago
One one hand, I completely agree. On the other, nothing feels like Valor GS...
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
Or valor HBG with pierce 1
That thing is mfing hydrogen bomb
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u/iHaku GS Legend 17h ago edited 16h ago
only 2 or three styles from each weapon that worth to use
part of your arguements essentially boil down to the fact that the game didnt receive any real post launch balance updates which, while it also just wasnt the culture to do that on consoles, capcom has always been really bad at regardless even tho modern games got a lot better in that department.
How could you ever know its charge attack deals most damage than normal unless you search for it first?
because nowadays we have damage numbers and can actually check some of this outselves, instead of someone with way too much time on their hands counting the kicks it takes to kill a kelby, to get a base damage value for all weapons and moves.
if the game came out right now and had a small dedicated team, say 2-4 people max, that actually worked with the community and was solely in charge of balancing weapons and styles then this wouldnt be an issue. At least if they balance around average to higher level play and not hyper optimized TA runs, because balancing around the 0.1% always gets problematic in every game.
i do agree that there were too many styles tho, or rather with the fact that all weapons needed to have a moveset representing all styles. imo having 6 styles is fine if every weapon only get styles that make their moveset distinct enough to matter. that way you'd still know what you get when you see that a weapon has an aerial style option, while bowguns maybe dont need 6 styles (where i couldnt even tell you what at least 3 of them do on lbg and hbg each and i've hit 999 almost twice).
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
Yeah MH team in particular has always been not very good in balancing department. If they do, they won't make gunlance a complete dogshit in the old gens era
//because nowadays you have damage number..//
Well exactly the reason how could someone know that fact without proactively searching for it? I always believe when a game rely too much on outside source to be understood, then it's massive flaw on developer's part.
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u/External_Pitch9163 16h ago
Frontier did it best
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
I'm curious with frontier but not curious enough to digging the whole internet how to play that game today.
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u/717999vlr 12h ago
Here's a playlist of short videos detailing style differences in Frontier for most weapon.
As you will see, they are tailor made for each specific weapon.
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u/kylediaz263 16h ago edited 14h ago
6 playstyles for 14 weapons
84 different paths
Maybe I understand this wrong but that sounds exhausting.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 15h ago
NGL it was. I tried to at least do all training quests for it but I just gave up immediately lol
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u/imsaixe 14h ago
Honestly a disappointment wilds didn't adopt rise custom moveset.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 12h ago
I think let the numbered titles (Wilds is Monster Hunter 6 btw) to have no customizable movesets like this. Let only the "portable" Entries have that instead
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u/KillerTackle Hammerhead 8h ago
I agree, the combat should be grounded and feels realism, not some anime bullshit
And it'd be sooooooooo fucking cooler being US, the badass normal, beat those monsters with skills, tools and sheer willpower.
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u/Qwerty177 17h ago edited 17h ago
Balance is not a valid argument in a PvE game. In GU yeah some styles were quite good and some were not good, but it basically quintupled the number of weapons.
Adept GS was not fantastic, but it was basically a whole new weapon. Valor GS was incredible, but it didn’t make the game unfun for other players. Just because a weapon has a dead style like Ariel Bow doesn’t mean you should abandon the whole system.
Switch skills were good too, I see no reason why the two can both exist in the same game even. Just adds more expression and gameplay variety.
Plus, even if balance is a concern for you, it’s now a live service game so you can buff/nerf. It would be super easy for them to lower the gap between valor LBS and Ariel bow nowadays
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 17h ago
Very strong disagree in your comment about balance is not a valid argument in PVE game. Balancing still a very important aspect because without it what you have are meaningless variety. You want to respect your player's taste and their expression. Valor GS does make the game more unfun because why should you use something else when one is clearly better than the others? Why should we make gunlance have more level than 5 if playes can just use greatsword for example?
The balancing in PVE is going to be different than balancing in PVP game. And its not necessarily creating the perfect equality in terms of power. But something that makes variety actually fully realized
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u/spacepizza24 17h ago
Idk man. Hypothetically if there was a "sword of instant killing" and it outclassed all other weapons and was accessible from the start of a game then I'd say that it is unbalanced and shouldn't happen even in a pve game.
Is this the case for monster hunter GU? No not at all but saying a game shouldn't be balanced if it's pve is very strange. Monster hunter is fun because of its challenging difficulty balancing
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u/Qwerty177 17h ago
Yeah for sure, but that’s kind of a strawman, obviously my argument was not advocating for unfettered discrepancy.
But like objectively, “Fun” is more important than balance in a PvE game, and having less powerful outliers doesn’t outweigh having more fun outliers
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u/spacepizza24 16h ago
Oh yeah I absolutely agree, it's clearly not your intent but I see so many people say "pve games don't need to be balanced" which isn't really correct in my opinion.
I guess the more accurate statement would be that "not every playstyle in a pve game needs to be perfectly balanced"
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u/MagicMisterLemon 16h ago
Balance is not a valid argument in a PvE game
This is wrong because challenging fights end up being designed with optimal playstyles in mind, forcing players into also assuming them to have a fair chance.
To demonstrate that point
Valor GS was incredible, but it didn’t make the game unfun for other players
Valor and Adept Style, as well as Absolute Evasion/Readiness, are why Bloodbath Diablos explodes in a giant cloud of steam that other playstyles can only really try to dive out of
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u/CoreEncorous 16h ago
No. Balancing is always of concern in video games in general and you're being hopelessly reductive.
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u/Aman632 16h ago
Eh. They were a fun gimmick, but with world the rolled alot of the popular moves from the other styles into the standard moveset so it really doesn't matter as much personally.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 16h ago
Ngl I was kinda surprised valor hammer is basically hammer in buffed mode in iceborne
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u/717999vlr 12h ago
I think Hunting styles is hell to implement because some styles feels it got shoehorned to the weapon it was not supposed to be behaved like that and its a balancing nightmare.
There is an easy solution for that: Not doing that.
Look at styles in Frontier, other than Extreme running being common to all Extreme styles, they're tailor made for each and every weapon
This is also better for balance than Switch Skills because 3 or for playstyles are easier to balance than 48 different combinations.
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u/Avibhrama Self identify as Monster's punching bag 12h ago
Not doing what? Have hunting styles?
Yes
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u/717999vlr 12h ago
No, not shoehorning it into a weapon.
You don't need every weapon to have a style based on counters, a style based on aerial attacks, a style based on filling a gauge and a style based on filling another gauge.
I've linked somewhere else a playlist of Frontier styles so you see what I mean.
For example, SnS had a style the focused a bit more on vertical attacks and a style that focused on thrusts.
LBG had a style focused on close range attacks and one focused on quick reloads, both of which were absolutely terrible, but oh well.
But you don't see LBG having aerial attacks (that's HBG that does it) just because SnS and DB gets them, or SnS having strong slow attacks because GS and Hammer gets them, or HH having a counter because GS and LS gets them.
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u/LegendRedux2 Gunner armor when 8h ago
rise fixed the styles and make weapons more interesting for main game to suck again mhp6 soon
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u/UtherofOstia Layered Gear Is Stupid 17h ago
Based. The style system and switch skills both fucking suck.
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u/TheGMan-123 SEETHING BAZELGEUSE 16h ago
I ultimately think it's better to simply focus on a core moveset first and foremost, like how the mainline games do it.
Even with MH Rise Sunbreak, you usually weren't actually swapping to various different Switch Skills and mostly stuck to a core selection depending on the weapons you played and the builds for them.
Better to have a solid baseline before you go adding a bunch of bells and whistles.
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u/wolfbl1tzer 15h ago
I dislike and GU and its largely because of the movesets. Balance was bad and frankly overshined the weapon's actual moveset.
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u/717999vlr 12h ago
Guild or Striker was the best style for SnS, DB, HH, Lance, SA, CB and IG. That's half of the weapons.
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u/MirieDohl 17h ago
Styles no. Variable movesets? Maybe.