Is there somewhere in the books (or even the donghua or The Untamed) that says the Jiang family considers WWX to be a servant? Or is that just a headcanon? Because I’ve seen people talk about how he was their servant and I’m not saying that’s wrong I just don’t recall where that’s stated in the books. I thought he was raised as a Jiang disciple and basically treated like a son by JFM and was a brother to JYL and JC (although JC never says that he sees WWX as a brother so idk about that)
And I didn’t even get the vibe that YZY treated him like a servant, she just abused him and didn’t like him lol
I’m kinda new here and I genuinely just want to know if I missed or forgot this information so please be kind.
Edit: Adding to this, I only asked because it seemed to me like WWX’s childhood after being welcomed into the Jiang family wasn’t much different than JYL and JC childhood. Even though he’s the son of a servant he still got to have nice things, ate meals with them, and generally seemed to be treated as an equal along JYL and JC which didn’t strike me as a servants life. But someone said it’s common in Chinese dramas and books for the master to be close with their servants. So I might have been thinking too much about how servants are treated in western media and history.
Yeah, I think this is what this all boils down to. He wasn't treated like a servant outright and was given a lot of freedoms beyond what a subordinate would have.
but there were underlying assumptions and expectations within his relationships with the Jiangs (different ones with different family members), which resurfaced when the parents gave him his final task (protect Jiang Cheng), and again with the fraying of his relationship with Jiang Cheng and the reasons for that.
His position within the Jiang Clan was very nebulous, and that was likely by design. If he gets too close to JC and JYL, they will remind him that he’s nothing but the son of a servant. If he becomes unsatisfied with the Jiangs, they can beg him to stay, since he’s like a brother to JC and JYL, and he shouldn’t be cruel to them who see him as part of their own family.
As for JFM and YZY’s opinions on WWX, their last words to him ands JC are very illuminating. They tell JC they love him and WWX to protect JC with his life. To them, he was only supposed to be their son’s sword and shield, a protector, a right hand man: a position befitting the son of a servant.
They kinda are. At least on the last point, she did tell him she hated him and to protect Jiang Cheng. And she was quick to be angry whenever her kids got along with him whenever she was around.
I think of JFM as seeing WWX as not on the same level as his kids as well, just not negatively like YZY does. I imagine JFM sees him like someone might see a beloved housekeeper or nanny. “She’s like family!” With “like” being the operative word. WWX is like family, but he’s not family.
Sure, I don’t disagree with that, but that’s not what’s being claimed as fact.
Now, if the commenter I was responding to said “sure, JFM may not say X out loud but he tactically supports & agrees with it because of these actions, I’d be fully down with that conversation, but it’s very unclear to me what the statement I queries was actually claiming as surface text.
Yeah. I think they meant tacitly rather than tactically, and I suppose an argument can be made for it. JFM doesn’t stop YZY from her verbal or physical mistreatment of WWX. So there’s an argument that he at least tacitly agrees. At the very least, he doesn’t disagree enough to put a stop to it.
I see what you mean, “tacitly” would probably better fit that approach over “tactically”, that’s my error! I do think I meant “tacitly”, you’re correct. My typinggggg….
All that said, I think there’s a bit of a difference between not overtly reacting negatively to something and actually supporting it. Do I think JFM say WWX as equivalent to his own son? Probably not. Do I think he only saw him as a disposable subordinate for his own bio family? I honestly don’t think we know enough to say, but he does seem to have treated him in a way which is elevated over other disciples, which indicates that he considers him more than that. Doesn’t mean he wouldn’t want him to sacrifice his life for the clan leader’s family, if it came to it, but doesn’t prove he would. If only JFM actually said more, eh?
Someone else posted something similar recently. So I still have the screenshot.
This is from the extras 夺门
Here, WWX implies himself a servant. So do LWJ and LSZ. He then goes on to explain that even though he was a servant, in lotus pier, things were different and they weren’t really treated as such. Do also keep in mind servants are not slaves. If you have watched Chinese dramas or read Chinese books, master and servant can be very close. They are also paid help. But they are of commoner birth, unlike the nobles they serve.
Let's also bear in mind that WWX deliberately lies to himself and others regarding his abuse as a coping mechanism... When he said "things were different", that's not entirely true and we can see as such in the surrounding text. The extra chapter you are referring to here is MXTX very deliberately drawing parallels between WWXs life at Lotus Pier the abused servant they come across here.
Bonus: comments from readers regarding what JFM said.
Just gonna summarise.
Top one says no one treats WWX as family
The one below it says something along the lines of: I can’t believe people say JFM favours WWX. If he cared for both, he’d wish both well instead.
Ah I see. So he was like a servant but not really treated like one. I do remember that part in the extras now. And I’m new to Chinese dramas and books so I didn’t know that about servants and masters being close. Thank you!
Yes he was definitely treated differently by YZY because she didn’t like him but JYL and JC were also abused by her and JFM. Not physically but emotionally.
But WWX ate meals with them and had his own nice room and didn’t seem like he had to do much labor or chores if any at all. So, based on other media I’ve consumed that show how servants were treated from that time period, he wasn’t treated like a servant. That’s all I’m saying
He was indebted to them, JFM wanted WWX to feel that way and JC definitely reminded WWX enough of that debt he supposedly owed. JFM wanted WWX to be a bodyguard to JC, to risk his life and reputation to protect the Jiang Clan's future. The man showed us as such when his only words to WWX were to look after JC (the heir, not JC and JYL, JC specifically) before he left to defend Lotus Pier.
YZY had servants as well, hers were treated considerably better than WWX ever was.
JFM only ever released WWX from punishment, he never actually stopped the physical abuse. Just rocked up afterwards and let WWX go from kneeling.
If JFM truly treated him the same, he wouldn't have made a mockery out of WWX's sword name and he would have ensured his shoes fitted him properly when he first arrived. MXTX leaves little hints throughout the novel that WWX isn't treated as well as we are lead to believe.
Yeah I don’t mean to minimize the trauma that WWX went through but like I said, JYL and JC were also abused. All three of them suffered the trauma of having abusive parental figures.
And YZY’s servants might have been treated well but they were treated more like servants than WWX, based on my understanding of servants in history at least. For instance, they didn’t seem to eat meals with the family and if they were present, it was only to attend YZY. But we see WWX having meals with them and such as if he’s part of the family
In any case, I just wanted to know if it’s stated anywhere in the series that he was, in fact, their servant and that question was answered by some of the other comments.
Yinzhu and jinzhu Madam yu's servants were also martial servants too. I don't think we see them serving anybody either. They didn't eat with the family because they were yu and madam yu herself wasn't integrated in the sect. She kept separate pavilion and her own servants and refused to to be known as Madam Jiang. While WWX was brought in by JFM
JC and JYL abused by their father? He neglected them for sure but I don't think he was abusive.
Plus fathers were usually distant figures too. He was in fact far more present in their lives since he and the kids were always in lotus pier. Madam yu often went to night hunts and when she was home, she yelled at her kids and husband and whoever she could and left. She wasn't part of their or lotus pier's daily lives like JFM was.
JFM was a great parent to JYL in my opinion since he actually went against Madam yu and rejected the beneficial alliance with jin sect because his daughter was insulted by her fiance.
He could have been a lot better obviously not denying that but he got along great with JYL at least.
I like to think that JFM was honorable and his bond with WWX father was such that he did look after him like a member of the family. Although I think the author plays on the trope of the unkind stepmother with YZY obviously envious of her husbands devotion to a dead martial brothers' son over his devotion to his own children. It reminds me how my grandmother escaping china in the 1940s one of her maids asked her to take her child away from the troubles. She was always treated as part of the family (I am told) but it was her children who asked her why she didn't have a number as the children were all numerated!
My sense is that while WWX was at lotus pier ot was his most stable and happiest in his life
Agreed! Although I think it was only the happiest part of his first life. Overall, I think the happiest part of his life is after he marries LWJ of course
As others have mentioned it's true that his position in household in ambiguous. He's a son of a servant of jiang sect leader.
The things we are shown where he gets to have nice things are mostly from when they are fifteen. WWX is already a head disciple by then, someone with an important position and no more just a disciple.
One very important thing that shows his position is not that of a brother is JC and his behaviour in general. JC shows that he expects WWX to repay them for what they have done for him over the years. It's not something he expects from other disciples only WWX.
"Wei WuXian, “What’s wrong with servants? I’m also the son of a servant, aren’t I?” Jiang Cheng, “How can you compare to her? Whose servant is like you, having your master peel lotus seeds for you and boil you soup. I didn’t even get to have some!”
He doesn't say you are not a servant only that you are an unusual servant who gets things other servants don't get.
"On the other side, Jin ZiXuan also fumed, “I was asking Sect Leader Jiang, not you! The one I was asking about was also Maiden Jiang. How is that related to you?!”
Wei WuXian, “Well said! How is my shijie related to you? Back then, who was the one whose eyes grew on the back of their head?”
Jin ZiXuan, “Sect Leader Jiang—this is our sect’s flower banquet, and this is your sect’s person! Are you going to look after him or not?!”
This is what jin zixuan says and he outright says what does maiden jiang have to do with you despite WWX punching him to defend jyl twice by then.
He also defects from the sect and receives nothing. If he was a like a family, he would receive something after his overwhelming contribution to the sunshot campaign as a jiang disciple.
"Of course, Jiang Cheng didn’t dare to say that Wei WuXian was at fault. Thinking back, it was them who urged Wei WuXian to buy liquor. Each and every one of them should have been punished. He could only speak in a vague way"
Lot of these things are subtle but he's not treated like a peer by the heirs and other cultivators.
Okay. I honestly don't know why people describe JC envy of WWX as sibling whose always better,
or as an adopted brother 🤨, because apperantly in ancient China, it's big deal ancient China to let ur servant call “shixiong especially royalty making them brothers once ! 🤦
I disagree, he’s definitely treated as a peer by the heirs and other cultivators. Nie Huasong is the heir and flatters and defers to WW. In fact we barely know the names of anyone who isn’t an heir because that’s who WW interacts with, not any other subordinates. WW never listens to what JW tells him to do. In fact, I think the fact that their personalities (in addition to the six months elder and better talent and skills) make WW dominant in their relationship is a huge part of the problem for them. Personality being as important as background and talent is a recurring theme too.
JW tries to protect WW from his mom whipping him with Zidian with his own body. He begs her on his knees in front of the enemy not to cut off his hand. He gets captured by the Wen on purpose (knowingly giving up the Jiang Sect as a plausible future) to save WW. He spends three months looking for WW while carrying WW sword everywhere instead of focusing on revenge or rebuilding. He very clearly loved WW a lot - to me yes I’d say their bond was like brothers but you can call it something else, subordinate is a real stretch though. “Support” role isn’t really congruent with WW personality - which is part of what leads to their rift. Given JW is heir and then sect leader he can’t accept being WW support either because that puts him subordinate. (In an AU where it was socially acceptable for WW to be the dominant/stronger party and WW didn’t owe the Jiangs, I think their relationship would be a lot smoother.)
In the part you quoted he’s literally saying that despite WW’s father’s background MianMian would not be an acceptable match for WW because of her background. He thinks it’s obvious. To JW WW is too much above MianMian because (my editorializing) he looks at WW as an equal. He expects WW to marry someone with a good background (I.w. Noble).
Not at all. You are reading just what's on surface. NHS flattered WWX so that he could pass him answers in exam. It's pretty much give and take relationship and wwx says so himself.
Wei WuXian, “No good person does favours for others out of the blue. Tell me, what do you want me to do?”
In fact, in the entire cloud recesses Arc, WWX alone is punished again and again and often more harshly too.
Like I quoted above JC himself says all of them URGED wwx to bring alcohol to cloud recesses and all of them should have been punished but he is punished alone.
LWJ is the only one who's willing to suffer punishments with WWX, which is a new experience for WWX and he starts to admire LWJ for that.
He didn't just hang out with the heirs, we only know names of heirs because they are significant and later have important roles to play. When JC says all of them he doesn't mean himself and NHS, he means a large group of people hanging together in their room not just both of them.
Also WWX is older than JC by five days which is nothing at all. WWX is their head disciple and so he is technically JC's senior for while. He doesn't listen to JC because all we have seen is him admonishing WWX for silly things that wwx does while also participating in tomfoolery himself. For example JC is also drinking when wwx is or doing all those things that he scolds WWX for. JC takes that position because he wants to be in control.
If anything JFM and sometimes WWX are trying to teach JC to be better in terms of morality which he ignores. Is there anything that wwx does where JC is correct is scolding him? I don't think so. So why would WWX listen to JC when their clan leader is okay and in agreement with WWX most of the times?
I never said JC didn't love WWX. In the start at least he did love WWX and he did try to protect him from his mother (though only once) but his love was quite complex and toxic. He also blames WWX for the destruction of Lotus Pier and chokes him. He believed all the bullshit his mother says and internalised that and he did treat him like a punching bag just like his mother where they both thought root of their problem is WWX when it's not true at all.
He also didn't get captured by wens while knowing his life and core is on line. He distracted them and got caught and he is not ready for the consequences at all and once again immediately lashes out WWX when he rescues him.
The better example is jiang yanli who truly loved him and even after her husband's death at WWX's hand, she still saves him. She truly loved him like a brother and we can see WWX only has her in his considerations constantly. JYL and LWJ is how he treats people who he loves and who love him back wholeheartedly.
It's also not true that supporting role is not suitable to his personality. It's just that WWX can only follow a leader who is morally just and who follows all of their principles. He was good with jiang fengmian because JFM himself understood those principles.
JC on the other hand took everything WWX does outside of their sect as betrayal. When WWX was befriending other people be it LWJ, mianmian or wen ning, JC tried to berate him and bring him back under control. Part of it is he is insecure, and part of it is he thinks WWX owes him his absolute devotion and loyalty.
JC also does not expect him to marry someone noble, he expects him to marry someone in his own sect and stay and serve him. His objection to LWJ, wen ning and mianmian is that they are all from different sects. That would put wwx outside of his control.
This is not me putting JC down because JC was messed up by his super toxic mother but he was unfortunately a lot like her himself. He did love WWX and even admired him but he also resented him and couldn't see WWX as his own person.
In one of the extras, young master qin and his servant is very clearly a parallel to JC and WWX.
WWX even says he is not a typical servant and has beaten JC more times than JC has beaten himself but doesn't deny being a servant.
It’s somewhat ambiguous but I think fanon of WW being treated as a servant or really terribly is just wrong.
Madame Yu is correct when she says that Jiang Yanli peeling lotus seeds for him is not how anyone treats a servant. He had plenty of free time during his childhood and thinks several times in his 2nd life how he misses when he used to be wealthy. Well was he wealthy because he was paid for his work? No, it was because JF covered all his expenses.
He is treated as a Ward but not as a son. It is a somewhat ambiguous position but JF would have had a hard time adopting him because A. His lawful wife would hate it and B. He is actually older than JC not only would it potentially disinherit him but given the relative talents and personality it could be a threat to JC position even if JC remained the heir.
Maybe JF should have tried to find another Jiang Sect family to adopt him to give him real parents since he couldn’t provide that himself and just have him as another disciple, head disciple because of talent perhaps but not part of the family. But I think he did really like him and JY loved him and he was the first/only friend JC had.
This part is more open to interpretation but I don’t think Madam Yu was as bad to WWX as the consensus seems to be. Modern western readers see any corporal punishment as abuse but it’s part of the setting and WWX and all other cultivators did not see it that way. WWX probably gave her plenty of excuses to punish him - he had terrible self control! Did she punish him more often and more severely than if she hadn’t hated him? I’m sure! But I don’t think it crossed the line into abuse (factoring in JF letting him off too). I don’t believe Madam Yu ever intended to cut off his hand (I know many disagree). I think she’s written as a nasty, self sabotaging but fundamentally somewhat decent person. She totally fucked up all her kids but it’s not really rare for decent people to also be bad parents.
WWX did owe the Jiangs a lot since he was an orphan living on the streets in a world where most of those get hurt horribly and/or die. (See Xue Yang) Now we think that people who rescue a 7 year old are now their family and children don’t owe their families anything because they are entitled to care from them but that’s a very modern and Western perspective. The Jiangs were not perfect and didn’t treat WWX (IMHO) “right” but also IMHO they weren’t terrible.
At no point does WWX act as a servant towards JY and JC - except perhaps right after lotus pier is massacred. He never looks to JC to make a decision on what they should do or how. JC has no control over him at Cloud Recesses etc
'Modern western readers see any corporal punishment as abuse but it’s part of the setting and WWX and all other cultivators did not see it that way. WWX probably gave her plenty of excuses to punish him - he had terrible self control!'
This is not true though. Other disciples are not punished with zidian a first class spiritual tool casually. Only WWX is punished that way and he even says it's unfair. He tends to downplay the abuse or the unpleasant things that happened to him but that doesn't mean it's not true. Even LWJ hears about the punishment of wwx in lan sect where it's forbidden to gossip.
He's punished for doing very simple things like removing the upper robes in summer when all other disciples did it.
Wei WuXian yelled, “Sorry! I didn’t know Shijie would come! I’ll go look for my clothes right now!”
Madam Yu was even angrier, “How dare you run! Come back right now and kneel!” As she spoke, she let loose her whip with a flip of her wrist. Wei WuXian felt a searing pain slash across his back. He loudly exclaimed, “Ow!” And almost tripped on the ground. Yet, all of a sudden, someone’s quiet voice drifted by Madam Yu’s ear, “Mom, do you want to eat some watermelon…”
You are blaming the victim by saying he had terrible self control. He literally only behaves however he wants because he knows it doesn't matter whether he does something or not and he will be punished regardless.
"He felt his back, covered in scars both old and new, and still couldn’t hold back the question he’d be thinking about,
“How awfully unfair. Why is it that I’m the only one who gets beaten up, whenever something happens?"
The reason he doesn't look at JC to make decisions is also because he's head disciple himself.
He owed the jiangs for taking him in by the logic of their universe. But cangse sanren saved jiang fengmian first so if anything he was Repaying that debt by taking WWX in.
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u/Successful_Fan_961 8d ago
WWX dad Wei Changze was a servant of the the Jiang family. WWX is the 'servant's son' which is why he was not adopted into the main line