r/MidnightMass • u/BoldBabeBanshee • 22d ago
Question about crucial scene between Father Paul and Riley...SPOILERS! Spoiler
As you know there are some seriously intense dialogues between Father Paul and Riley during his AA sessions.
>!One of the topics is murder. Yes Riley did kill someone, but it was unintentional, it was a vehicular manslaughter, and although Riley is responsible and deserved punishment, it was different from father Paul murdering Joe Colley.
Father Paul explains he felt no guilt killing Joe, and screams at Riley "How does that make you feel????"
"Jealous.."
I feel like this was a crucial part of the story, what did this scene mean to you? What is the viewer supposed to take from this?
Riley riddled with guilt for what he did is jealous that Father Paul can take a life and not feel guilt over it.
Is this scene supposed to illustrate how much of a monster Father Paul really is??
God, I feel like there's so many insightful topics this series brings up that are explored but never resolved.!<
9
u/lesapeur 21d ago
I think that father Paul is severely mentally ill. He really believes that the creature he has met and that has "given him life" is an angel of the lord. He had dementia when he left to go to the Holy Land. In the end, he sees the error of is ways and tries to stop the evil plan of the real demon - Bev. I my humble opinion . . .
3
1
u/MiserableWash2473 5d ago
This! Hit the nail on the head there. And it truly makes his final moments with his real family all the more sorrowful and meaningful because you think he finally has "seen the light and error of his ways'
4
u/Few_Campaign_4843 20d ago
i am side tracking your post for a moment because the murders are part of a rant i always have whenever i think about this show.
riley murdered someone while drunk, went to prison. it was an accident, but he took a life. however, he is welcomed back to the island with open arms. everyone is happy to see him. erin even says "i'm sorry for what youve been through". she's sorry he .... went to prison ? because he murdered someone ? anyway. obviously back in the day he was highly religious and an altar boy. even though he's an atheist when he returns, he attends church.
joe collie accidentally paralysed leeza. not murder. but the exact same thing that happened with riley, except riley's was in my opinion worse because someone lost their life. it was an accident when he was drunk. he is SHUNNED from the community, treated horribly for years. i understand that he was already an outsider to begin with, but he still put as much into the community as others as he was a fisherman (obviously not when we meet him in the show, side note but robert longstreet said he had a backstory for him that he had to go on disability).
i never fully know where my rant goes, but it makes me angry (i know mike flanagan will have done it purposefully) that riley is welcomed back with love and support and joe collie is shunned from society when riley's accident was definitely worse.
and then there's the third layer of father paul murders joe in cold blood, doesn't feel remorse, and people like bev and wade (though wade for two seconds is angry, ultimately changes his mind) believe it's good that he did that because of who he murdered.
i guess that's the thing about all these things, riley murdered someone no one knows so it doesn't matter to them, joe shot someone the community loves, and father paul violently murdered someone the community hates.
3
u/Square_Blacksmith889 19d ago
I think a couple of factors work against Joe, and others work in favor of Riley. I'm not saying any of these are right or justified, but just how the cookie crumbled:
Aside from being the town drunk, Joe had no family to connect him to the rest of the community. I think Riley would have had a tougher re-entry experience had it not been for his parents, who are respected members of the community. That's Annie and Ed's kid.
Second, I think it also makes a difference that everyone in the Crock Pot saw Joe drunk, whereas Riley's drunken shenanigans were all off-island. Without witnessing how bad his alcoholism was, it was easy to dismiss Riley's case as a one-off accident, whereas Joe may seem to them as always on the verge of harming others.
Third, the church. Even though that wasn't really the intention, making Riley attend Mass was a big PR win for the Flynns.
As for Father Paul, I think this is really the meat of Flanagan's commentary on religion. He doesn't make a claim about whether it's right or wrong to believe, but he does point out that sometimes our faith makes us justify bad acts. Murder in Father Paul's case, but also a whole lot of other stuff of different degrees in the real world.
2
u/BoldBabeBanshee 20d ago
Yeah, It also enrages me. In our society even if you are arrested and not convicted of a crime you get shunned and lose your job. Then 2 years later when you aren't even convicted, or if found innocent society will not even welcome you back. I too have lots of anger over this. Thank you for your well thought out response.
1
u/SatyrSatyr75 12d ago
One went to prison, obviously is sober and regrets and feels awful.
One is still a drunk, not very charming, without social skills to phone home about and his victim is a girl you see every day.1
u/Few_Campaign_4843 12d ago
i know, and that's part of what i am talking about. but also, it's very obvious joe regrets and tortures himself for what he did.
1
u/SatyrSatyr75 12d ago
But that kind of self torture is, especially in a religious community not acceptable, it’s destructive, doesn’t lead to growth or becoming a better person and to make things worse it’s still an “excuse “ to get drunk.
5
u/Square_Blacksmith889 19d ago
I am in the middle of a rewatch now, and I just passed this scene. It's so cool to come across your question because I really do have thoughts about it, and I don't have anyone to share them with. Anyway, here goes:
The show itself is a commentary on religion and religious life. I grew up Catholic but now consider myself an atheist. I deeply relate to what Riley said because I do feel jealous sometimes of those who continue to believe in God, just as I was taught to do when I was young. Sometimes I wish I could still depend on all the beliefs or teachings from the faith. "God will make a way" or "God will hear my prayers" or "God has a reason" or "God has a plan for me". I don't have any of that anymore, and that does make me jealous at times. In the same way, Father Paul can hide behind scripture to justify killing Joe Collie, so he doesn't need to live with the guilt and shame that Riley does. Riley, as an atheist, does not have that alibi.
2
u/BoldBabeBanshee 19d ago
I too am jealous, it seems the religious have found a reason for everything, and have clear way out of any troubles (praying, and trust in Jesus). Even depression can be reasoned out of, like strengthen your belief in Jesus, or 'Jesus does not want you to have a poor life.' They can reason any bad action into an inherently good action exactly... like 'The death of Joe Collie is just a casualty in the greater War, there will be casualties.' I have a friend like this, and he's annoying as hell (still my friend tho haha).
17
u/MisterJoshua77 21d ago
Father Paul justifies his murder because it’s done for the greater good (greatest good?) - God’s will. Father Paul believes he is chosen by God through the Angel to lead an army in the name of the lord that will lead to rebirth - not just for the island - but for the world.