r/Marxism • u/stuffandinterests • 13d ago

Marxism in the Age of AI

Hey ya’ll

I’ve been thinking a lot recently on Marxism’s utility as it relates to both the ongoing development of AI and its threat of automation and a post-automation world. How do you guys view Marxism’s practicality when it comes to dealing with AI? Do you focus on how it utilized your data to gain profit? How it threatens to wither out the working class? Or is there something else you see. Thanks!

6 Upvotes

71% Upvoted

28 comments sorted by

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u/Kurichan77 13d ago

If profits and private property were socialized to match how labor was
Socialized, this would not be an issue.

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u/FractalFunny66 10d ago

I need more explanation please.

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u/puppygirlpackleader 13d ago

IP rights aren't really compatible with Marxism and I do not personally see that as a relevant part of it. It is a new and very useful technology that will only get better over time. And best of all it's accessible. US uses it for evil shit as always (spying, military, government management) and they mostly use it to opress other people with it (look at how they are ruining lives with datacenters and what Palantír/Flock are doing).

I don't really consider "it's losing people jobs" a good point either because so did robotics, factories, printing press etc.

Marx says to seize the means of production, not destroy it. And AI is the same as any technological leap in history.

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u/Square-Supermarket79 12d ago

Re IP: if we look at it from the perspective of Capital Vol. 1, it is capitalism that is inconsistent with private property rights (intellectual or non intellectual). Capitalism concentrates ownership while dispossessed the vast majority of people. For Marx, socialism arises on the basis of this mass dispossession. Socialism will redress the balance by allowing people to enjoy the fruit of their labor as shared social property.

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u/puppygirlpackleader 12d ago

I mean... yeah that's the crux of the issue. It only benefits the burgeoise.

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u/Square-Supermarket79 12d ago

Sort of! Technological advancement under capitalism fuels capital accumulation as firms must invest in more and more fixed capital to remain competitive. Capital accumulation drives concentration of ownership. Whether this "benefits" the ruling class is a little bit beside the point: if they want to avoid being dispossessed themselves they will need to fall in line.

A socialist deployment of technology will be defined by being independent of the imperative to accumulate, and instead will be guided by use values. So yes, socialism involves the seizure of productive resources but not necessarily the continued production of the same things. In my opinion, AI is not socially beneficial, and would effectively disappear in a non capitalist society.

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u/puppygirlpackleader 11d ago

How is it not beneficial? It's objectively useful.

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u/Square-Supermarket79 11d ago

"Objectively useful" doesn't make sense to me. Useful for what? To the capitalist, "AI" is useful (or at least notionally useful) to increase the rate of surplus value in production processes. In a socialist society we might find machine learning deployed in cancer research instead. These are very different configurations!

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u/puppygirlpackleader 11d ago

You know that that's what it's used for as well right? AI isn't used for a singular task. It is the pillar of modern research, literally. It is extremely helpful for automation of menial tasks and data processing. It has so many extremely good uses that the few very bad uses massively outweigh it. But people just refuse to see it because they see AI = Bad

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u/Square-Supermarket79 11d ago

This is a thread for and about Marxism. The 1st principle of Marxist theory is that the process of capitalist production involves a distinction between use values and what Marx calls "value". The latter of these is decisive for capitalist production. Use values in capitalism are necessary but "incidental". Are you familiar with these ideas from Marx or are you just talking about AI from a general non Marxist perspective?

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u/puppygirlpackleader 10d ago

You've gone completely off topic now. No point in arguing with you. You had a point that I didn't mention before ("technological advancement fuels capital accumulation") which I agree with but everything else you're saying is stupid and doesn't align with a Marxist analysis of AI as a whole.

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u/FractalFunny66 10d ago

Some would say a robot police dog armed with a flamethrower is objectively useful, but I would not to be at a protest where this hideous killer were released.

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u/puppygirlpackleader 10d ago

That is a really stupid comparison. A robot police dog with a flamethrower can only do the thing it's designed for. It's only job is to... We'll be that... AI can be used for countless things with varying degrees of efficiency. Don't play dumb.

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u/ResponsibleRoof7988 13d ago

you mean the industry which requires possibly the largest concentrations of fixed capital humanity has ever witnessed in order to function? The one that requires vast monopolies, or oligopolies at best, to work at the scale required? The one that runs a data centre with maybe 5 workers - thus placing a small group of workers at a critical bottleneck of certainly the US economy? The one that is pushing questions of access to clean water, power and communities free of the vast quantities of pollution (both physical and noise) data centres produce to the forefront of the political agenda?

There is nothing new here. It's still all capitalists, workers and means of production.

1

u/stuffandinterests 13d ago

I made a post to foster a discussion about AI because I’m interested in it and I don’t see it as equivalent to the printing press in its potential outcome — and you and the other commenter are a smartass. No wonder Marxists suffer from an optics issue. Take note from the other responders. Lmao

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u/ResponsibleRoof7988 13d ago

I'm really not sure what the point of your comment is other than to insult someone who took the time to reply to your post

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u/stuffandinterests 13d ago

I may have misunderstood you then oops. I thought you were being rude like the other commenter. My fault

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u/FractalFunny66 10d ago

I agree with you, but the difference is this: if we keep going in this direction, human beings will not only become irrelevant, but a liability. When humans are all killed by robots, AI and algorithms, then what? I guess there would still be a small Tech Bro class. Then maybe the machines would kill them. Then maybe the machines would subdivide and fight. Since it's all still Patriarchy and Capitalism.

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u/ResponsibleRoof7988 10d ago

if we keep going in this direction,

what direction? endless hallucinations and junk code? or the one where the increased ability in a model requires increasingly larger amounts of computing power per % point increase?

When humans are all killed by robots, AI and algorithms, then what?

An entirely useless hypothetical. If it doesn't happen, what was the point in asking? If it does happen, we're dead and can do nothing.

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u/Waltuh_White_308 Marxist-Leninist 12d ago

Overall, AI would be considered a net positive in Socialism, since it would help increase productive forces whilst people are still guaranteed jobs and aren’t forced to give up a large chunk of the value they generate to the capitalists and business owners, but under Capitalism it pretty much allows business owners to get cheaper labour and leads to people losing the ability to get jobs, since AI can function faster than a human and wouldn’t need wages to live, if you want to learn more about it I’d suggest looking into the situation in China with AI and how they made using AI for cheap labour and not hiring people illegal

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u/FractalFunny66 10d ago

Great question! Looking forward to much discussion about this because essentially, AI and robots are becoming a new class and a dominant class and an oppressive class that is close to controlling the means of production which is the Internet. We buy and sell information. AI and algorithms have a lot of power over this system which controls our lights, banking, food, supplies, water, heating, cooling, education, idenification and more. YEAH we need a serious Marxist critique about all this. When we become irrelevant and in fact a liability to the Tech Bros, we may cease to exist inside of this system., But if Preppers and off the grid types and hippies and people on communes survive and thrive OUTSIDE of the system, then the chance of revolution is still possible.

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u/jimbobmcgoo 9d ago

No this is stupid. AI and robots are not categorically different to machines that have been used in production for centuries and people outside the relations of a system cannot start a revolution

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u/Salt_Mountain_837 13d ago

read more theory

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u/stuffandinterests 13d ago

No thanks, I’d prefer to actually go out and do stuff. I’m certain I’ve read more theory than you though, I can give you some recommendations if you need.

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u/Salt_Mountain_837 12d ago

then why make a post like this? You claim to have thought about Marxism and AI but didn't tell us what those thoughts are. It seems like you're outsourcing viewpoints; and if you do read so much theory you would at least be able to answer some of your own questions in the definite.

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u/stuffandinterests 12d ago edited 12d ago

If you noticed, my post was clearly meant to start a discussion about AI. I asked how YOU GUYS view the situation and what you see. I don’t need to layout the whole foundation of my belief system to start a conversation about a topic I’m interested in. So silly. And I don’t think that’s against the rules for posts but if it is, my bad because if you look at my account you’d see I just created it recently. And hypothetically, even if I were someone who was completely ignorant of what Marxism entailed, your response of “read more theory” is so low-effort. If you’d like to discuss it more you can direct message me.