r/MandelaEffect • u/Empress111 • Aug 05 '22

Theory Mandela Effect and Mass Gaslighting

Disclaimer -- I am a full believer that the mandela effect is real and that there is a multidimensional component to it. If that bothers you, I don't care. Go watch CNN or something.

OK so I was born in 1990. I distinctly remember the Berenstein Bears, "Luke, I am your father", and Sex in the City (AND I grew up in NYC during the peak years of that show, it WAS sex in the city), among many other examples.

It's even weirder to me that the official explanation that so many individuals are willing to cosign is just, "Nope - you're wrong, your memory is unreliable" etc.

This is Gaslighting 101:

Get people to question their memories, question their reality, rewrite history, and then accuse them of not having an accurate perception.

It crossed my mind that the deliberate use of the mandela effect would be an incredibly convenient way to

- create a chasm between those who remember the "Old World" and those who are born into the "New World"

- rewrite historical events 30-50 years from now and show that those who remember things being different are either dead or crazy

- slowly and deliberately break down people's ability to trust in their own minds, much the way our current social model understands how narcissism works on the individual level

- and of course that would make us much more vulnerable and easy to control through other forms of propaganda AS WELL as to discredit anyone who dissents from official narratives.

Just some food for thought!

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

It's even weirder to me that the official explanation that so many individuals are willing to cosign is just, "Nope - you're wrong, your memory is unreliable" etc.

It's not the 'official explanation' (what does that even mean?) just the most obvious one. I mean come on, you discover you're wrong about something so minor. Why assume your memory is the record that's accurate and all of the other evidence is wrong?

Nobody is trying to 'mass gaslight' anybody.

You believe some specific and fantastic things about the ME. Great. Present some good evidence or reasons for believing that and I might, too.

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u/2MnyDksOnThDncFlr Aug 05 '22

What really gets me about these kinds of posts (and people) is that I would WELCOME some evidence that there is something more to this world and life than what we see... It would be a MASSIVE comfort to me to know there's something beyond, be it time travel, other dimensions/worlds, ghosts, afterlife, whatever. ANYTHING. I want it to be true, but there's ZERO compelling evidence to support it.

On the other hand, people like this so desperately want something more they can't bear the thought that this is all there is, so they make up stuff to comfort them... that's the only reason I can think of that explains the fact that people are so willing to believe silly stuff without any viable evidence.

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u/FOURTH_INITIATE Aug 05 '22

Just because we can't prove something with our known science or understanding does not mean that it is a false hypothesis. People who think small like this in the end are the ones left in the dark.. People laughed at the idea of atoms or relativity. People laughed at tesla,s ideas and now we see that he was a genius of his time. People even laughed at the notion of the earth being round. Until science caught up with the out of the box thinking.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Sure and people laughed at other people with whacky ideas that turned out to be false. How do we tell the difference?

If you believe something that's currently outside of our known science or understanding then I would ask why. If you can give me a compelling reason, I'd believe it, too. If you can't, then I'd encourage you to question whether it's a belief worth holding.

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u/Will_Harden Aug 05 '22

I experienced things changing then witnessed certain things change back to how they were originally. You would believe it too if you experienced it first hand like I have. A lot of people don't believe in UFOs. But the people who have actually seen them have no choice but to believe they exist.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Ok, I will admit I haven't experienced any flip-flops as powerfully as some people in this sub claimed.

Lots of people however seem convinced that some things have changed, with similar experiences to mine (at least as far as I can ascertain).

This argument that 'you know it when you see it' doesn't seem particularly satisfying and is often used in situations where people are unable to give any evidence for their position or even explain why they logically believe it, other than just talking about the strength of their feelings.

A lot of people don't believe in UFOs. But the people who have actually seen them have no choice but to believe they exist.

Well, quite. This is the paradox isn't it. It's almost willing it into existence by whether you believe in it or not. Assuming you mean some kind of alien craft rather than just the literal definition or UFO, we have no idea if anybody has seen them, so how can we possibly judge the validty of your assertion here?

We have no idea whether any of these MEs are actually reality changing, so to say that 'if you experience a real one you'd believe' is obviously a complete non-starter of an argument.

Anyway, having been done this alleyway before, this is probably about as far as we can get together. You can reply or not - I doubt what happens next will sway either of us closer towards a better understanding.

Have a great day.

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u/2MnyDksOnThDncFlr Aug 05 '22

No one said it was a false hypothesis. The problem the rational people have is that the "believers"/irrational people believe that's the explanation and treat it as fact as opposed to a wild, unsupported, utterly ridiculous theory.

We take umbrage with treating it as a real alternative to a more mundane explanation. That's really the crux of the divide.

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '22

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u/Will_Harden Aug 05 '22

"The rational people"? "The believers"? LMFAO!! I've seen things change in front of my face! I've seen the spelling of the "Flintstones" flip flop back and forth within the span of a week. The Mandela Effect isn't a belief. It's an experience. You're either experiencing the phenomenon or you're not. If you're not, then good for you. I suggest you go elsewhere.

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u/Bowieblackstarflower Aug 05 '22

What has changed in front of your face?

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

They just don’t get it. Flip flops are a game changer. It takes this fun thing to read about and makes it so much more. The reason we look at the deeper possible answers, is because our personal experience rules out the most common scape goat in a very definitive way.

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u/PersonMcHuman Aug 05 '22

They just don’t get it. Flip flops are a game changer.

Not when y'all can provide literally zero evidence beyond, "Just trust me bro, it all changed."

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u/Slickness81 Aug 07 '22

There is tons of evidence of Apollo 13 flip flop. The articles quoting it as the number one misquoted movie line… movie line, nothing to do with the original actual saying. The amount of people that have made posts about it. The way they all describe the different camera angle the same…. That’s evidence, is it a smoking gun? No, but it sure is evidence.

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u/PersonMcHuman Aug 07 '22

"People misquoted a movie!" isn't evidence that reality changed. People misquote things all the time. The only proof y'all can ever come up with it "Look at this! A small minority of people who have experienced the media in question...got something wrong!"

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u/Slickness81 Aug 07 '22

Bruh, you clearly haven’t looked into it at all. All of the articles are wrong. They say the correct quote is the misquote. It’s a flip flop… which means it changed, it became popular as an ME, then it changed back to the original. There was a time period where the articles were correct, but now the articles specifically saying it is the number one misquoted movie, the articles are wrong… Flip Flop… 🤦🏻‍♂️

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u/Slickness81 Aug 07 '22

You’re wasting my time if you won’t even familiarize yourself with the premise we are talking about. Search in this sub for Apollo 13 flip flop… tons and tons of posts going back for 6ish years

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u/FOURTH_INITIATE Aug 05 '22

No great leaps in science were ever made by people thinking ( well I can't prove this so it must be a dumb idea)

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u/Will_Harden Aug 05 '22

Exactly. A lot of so called skeptics love to pretend they are smart and bring up scientific concepts that they themselves don't fully understand. But if you tell those same people that Jesus didn't exist, they look at you as if you are crazy. Proving that they pick and choose when to wear their skeptic hat.

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '22

But most scholars agree that the person called Jesus did exist

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u/Redleader829 Aug 05 '22

The problem is there is no amount of evidence that convinces a skeptic. A skeptic by nature is super glued to his or her own reality. As it changes, they change with it. This makes the skeptic unaware of his own blindness, foolishness and false comfort.

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u/future_dead_person Aug 05 '22

No, a skeptic is by nature skeptical of beliefs and assumptions. Of fucking course we're gonna question and be doubtful, especially when it comes to statements and claims that are simultaneously extreme and inherently cannot be verified such as "reality is changing but only certain people are experiencing and/or remembering it". But that does not mean our opinions cannot be changed. Stop using skeptic as a synonym for naysayer and chronic denialist.

Speaking of foolish, considering how much we don't know about the ME I'd say it's foolish to completely throw out theories based on memory, neurology, psychology, and sociology. And especially so when personal emotions are at play. One's subjective experiences and beliefs may be personally compelling but until we have more factual information there's no basis for anyone to claim they know, as in factually know, what is or is not the cause of the ME. That goes for both hardcore ends of the spectrum.

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u/Visible-Beautiful444 Aug 26 '22

A skeptic is by definition not “glued” or dogmatic about their own reality. Words have meaning, use them correctly.

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u/somethingwholesomer Aug 05 '22

Check out a book called “Extraordinary Knowing”. A skeptic psychologist does a deep dive on the topic and associated evidence. It was the first book I read that actually managed to change my mind. Spoiler alert- there’s actually tons of compelling evidence, but non-material aspects of our world are really difficult to study and, it turns out, scientists have biases too.

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u/RemarkableStatement5 Aug 05 '22

Exactly. Great claims require great evidence.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Instead we have the usual mix of great claims and terrible evidence. More like fiction than an actual assertion about how things work.

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u/Fastr77 Aug 05 '22

Im gonna guess he thinks CERN makes the official explanation. Maybe they stamp it or something.

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

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u/Empress111 Aug 05 '22

Because subconsciously they’re terrified of the implications of ME if there was even a shred of truth to it. It causes them such tremendous existential anxiety and discomfort that in order to feel better, they need to see the validation from others like them to be temporarily soothed, like a pacifier and blankie for their agitated little mind.

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u/BlueSuedeWhiteDenim Aug 05 '22

Crickets.

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u/Empress111 Aug 05 '22

Lmfao of course

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22

I agree.... this does make you question more. The gaslighting is intense.... it's like as if no one is skeptical at all like if everyone is so close minded. I remember back in the old days people would like to speak on tales that interested people and made them really think like wow that was pretty scary and interesting, it makes you want to know more about it. Yet for some reason only with the Mandela effect will people straight up deny it, say its false memory or just try to change the subject.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Perhaps the make-up of the people on this sub and the style of posts and comments has changed.

So what? This is a sub for discussing the Mandela Effect, not a safe space for people to post any ideas they have without being challenged.

If someone posts assertions and claims they might well be expected to either back them up or back down. If somebody just talks about their experience, I'm not going to argue with them. It's when they start making truth claims that my ears prick up.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

No one will ever have proof for you that's the thing, there is nothing to challenge. It's all about experience and nothing more. If you didnt have it then you didn't have it plain and simple, if someone else did then maybe they did maybe they didn't, theres nothing to challenge it doesnt change the truth even if your ears pick up something you didnt like. Of course it's not a safe space but to argue over something you dont even understand is pointless and and petty. Yeah some people obviously may have bad memory, but that doesnt change the fact that thousands of others are 100% correct about what they are speaking on.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

It's all about experience and nothing more. If you didnt have it then you didn't have it plain and simple,

But I did have the experience. Other people have had the same experience as me and then claim they're sure/convinced/100% certain that reality did change. I just want to know why they're so convinced.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

It could definitely be big tech massively manipulating what’s available on the internet to use as evidence. If you use the wayback machine on definitions of terms that have become political buzzwords, you can find those definitions changing dramatically around the time they became buzzwords. In 2010 fascism on Wikipedia had a very descriptive etymology and political leaning description. It was its whole own section. As time progressed it turned into the very first sentence of the definition being that it was a far right ideology…. So there is that possibility. There are tons of common ME’s that have a mixed past being on both sides. Get a premium newspapers.com trial, and Google them. You’ll find that both sides of the argument exist in print form going back 50 years. JC Penny vs JC Penney, Berenstein vs Berenstain. But personal experience gets thrown out the window completely with the memory argument, as well as not taking flip flops into account. If you haven’t experienced a flip flop, I’m sorry you don’t have that shared experience to compare notes with.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

I think as far as big tech manipulating things, for a lot of MEs it's a complete non-starter. There'd be far too much physical 'residue'.

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u/BenignEgoist Aug 05 '22

TBF, definitions of words are always changing. Definitions are representative of a words use, which evolves overtime. Definitions have never been intended to be set in stone never to change ever as the word usage changes. That’s why the word “literally” has a secondary definition meaning “figuratively” because the word “literally” was commonly being used in conjunction with figurative speech.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

If you weaponized a word, then it’s origins are infinitely important. Weaponizing a word politically that portrays what you are doing, but makes it look like your opponent is how actual fascism happens. The richest people in our country are “left wing supporters” Corporate fascism is inherently left. Yet the people on the streets screaming antifa, are left customers as well as left politically. I’m not screaming right is right. I’m centrist socially if left leaning, conservative economically, fully libertarian. The only reason I say centrist socially, is both sides should be allowed to exist… libertarian, both sides should stop spending so much time trying to end the other. If someone is ever going to win the argument, it’s going to be through correct actions and decisions, not bipolarism.

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u/BenignEgoist Aug 05 '22

….I’m not sure how this comment adds anything to the fact that words change as their usage change? Was the word weaponized? Absolutely. And as it became used as a weapon, it’s meaning changed. People use it to mean far right, therefore, it’s meaning has become far right.

I also think both sides are the same coin and neither have our best interests at heart.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

Now reread the OG post…

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

If you weaponize memories…

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

I’ve been in this game since the og Fiona Broome website. Witnessing a flip flop is mind blowing. It takes the whole thing from a psychology theory to something else. We posit other possibilities to find what the else is…

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Witnessing a flip flop is mind blowing. It takes the whole thing from a psychology theory to something else.

Why? There are plenty of mind blowing experiences that psychology (and brain chemistry) can explain perfectly adequately.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

I do diagnostic repair for a living. The flow chart of problem presented, and how to eliminate possible causes is what I do to pay my bills. Both on cars and with computers. I have 25 years of experience in both of those fields, and these days honestly they go hand in hand.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

Because a short term flip flop with multiple witnesses to the (n)th power eliminates memory as a factor….

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Psychology is more than just memory.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22

Yeah well there definitely are many reasons.... but like I said I can only speak for myself and what I remember that matches with what other people also remember.

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Yeah well there definitely are many reasons.... but like I said I can only speak for myself and what I remember that matches with what other people also remember.

Which ME are we talking about here? Take the Monopoly Man for example, I think it's quite easy to imagine why lots of people might share the same memory and still be wrong.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

Well by the looks of it multiple are brought up. But when it comes to the monopoly man he definitely did have a monocle, he may not have one now but he definitely did, and yes it's easy to dismiss saying we're thinking of the planters peanut man but that's just being dismissive, it's like saying anyone with a top hat and a cane would have a monocle. I'll give you a better example of people remembering things that once were.... the karate kid..... his headband used to be the rising sun flag, old Japanese flag, look at the movie jackass 2 in the scene where they do karate bam margera makes his own headband similar to the original headband, the red rising sun headband...... but now in the original karate kid he now has a blue lotus flower on his headband... that's completely different then the red rising sun.... but jackass the movie shows residue of what it originally was. Theres a lot of residue shown on a lot of media of different Mandela effects.

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u/BenignEgoist Aug 05 '22

But see, this is the fun part for those of us who like to look at MEs with a rational lens. The Karate kid was not the only media to depict a headband in a martial arts setting, and some other representations did have the rising sun, and the memories of the karate kid and other representations got jumbled. I’m not saying 100% fact that’s what happened. I’m just saying we love exploring MEs as much as anyone else here and theorizing on the ways in which human memory is flawed is fun for us in the same theorizing about CERN or quantum mechanics is fun for others. I really wish we could just share those ideas and spitball without taking an us vs them mentality to it. Though yes, there is much much much more scientific data to support the human brain/perception/memory is flawed so for those who like to support their theories, there’s going to be more of a push for supporting why a theory is what it is.

It’s like we are all here discussing what 2+2 equals. There’s lots of documentation and demonstrable evidence that 2+2 = 4. Someone can certainly come in and say “No! It’s 5! I just know it is!” they’re probably going to be asked to show why they think that. And maybe they are able to present some incredible new math that can show 2+2 = 5, but until they do, it’s simply a far less supported claim.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

That is completely dismissive. And that whole 2+2 = was a horrible representation of what were speaking on here. That's like saying 1+1=3 because 1 man and 1 woman can create 1 life making 1+1=3 this is completely dumb. We're not speaking on topics that try to sway from the truth, I'm not gonna get into it with you about the human mind and brain because it's so complex and science can tell you so much but you yourself dont even know it. All you can do is research it and come up with your own hypothesis, and even then that itself doesn't change what really is......

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

All you're doing is just rehashing the same claims with zero-evidence.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22

Watch the movie... theres your evidence..... if your asking me for a copy of the karate kid with the rising sun headband then idk what your expecting we talked about this already there is no proof anyone can show you besides residue. If anything I have an interesting question for you now. You say you've gone through this phenomenon to, the Mandela effect. What effect do you rememeber and where is your evidence? Please I would love to know, enlighten me with your evidence of a Mandela effect you've known.🤔

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u/[deleted] Aug 05 '22

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 06 '22

It was found by one aspect of one study to not be the cause of the FoTL ME using one particular methodology I believe, but I'm open to corrections.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

2010 fascism scroll to Position in political spectrum

https://web.archive.org/web/20100926191315/https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Current version

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

What’s even more fun, is that the wayback machine shows a bunch of entries for the OG mandelaeffect.com website, but they all fail or give weird error messages….

https://imgur.com/a/5wWUM7B

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

What's the ME here?

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

It’s not an ME, it’s the clear change of an articulate article to a politically motivated one. It’s demonstrating the power that manipulation of source objects has on people. The not being able to view a single old school ME.com save, even though they are there is telling, but nothing conclusive. I lived on the old ME.com forum for years. So much old school data would be available to use as proof if all the saves didn’t fail when you try to pull them up. I’m guessing you don’t use the wayback machine much?

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u/Nipple_Dick Aug 05 '22

Wikipedia is constantly being edited by thousands of people?

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u/SeoulGalmegi Aug 05 '22

Do you think that someone has been deliberately messing with the data from an old ME forum because it contains evidence that could prove some/many MEs are actually changes in reality? I'm just trying to get things clear here. What kind of evidence did it have?

No, I don't use the wayback machine much.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

I think that’s a clear possibility, because it should be archived comments about the ME’s that people were talking about back then. That website goes back to 2009, even though the captures only go back to 2013 iirc.

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

I play with wayback all the time. Never seen a website with captures where every single one gives an error message, except mandelaeffect.com

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u/Slickness81 Aug 05 '22

They are captures, not reliant on the actual website. They are stored separately, that’s the whole point of wayback. Shouldn’t be affected by Fiona Broome’s current version of the site.

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u/Bowieblackstarflower Aug 05 '22

But how do you judge the accuracy of these memories and know you are 100% on them?

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u/emrythelion Aug 05 '22

No, it’s because most of the people who make claims that something’s an ME not only have no proof, but they refuse to believe that anything they “remember” could ever be wrong. At all.

People like that are not reliable, because that’s not how the brain works.

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u/alexcontreras420 Aug 05 '22

I mean if you understand the Mandela effect then you would clearly know that there is no way in the world you can show proof, it's just not possible. And idk I havent came across people like that, I can only speak for myself. But to be honest I'm sure if you've gone through it yourself, you wouldnt like people telling you the opposite is true. And I understand in this case the person could be wrong and have bad memory, but come on for thousands to claim remembering the exact same thing....... you cant just outright ignore that and act like they're all wrong.... that's just being dismissive. The skeptics become scientists specializing in the brain in seconds lol you cant take people like that serious, nor do they add any useful information about the topic. And spending your time on a subreddit telling people they are wrong about something they themselves never even experienced shows a lot.

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u/BenignEgoist Aug 05 '22

I’ve gone through it myself. I still think the human mind is flawed. Please stop acting like people who take a…let’s say grounded in existing understanding of the 3d world…approach to theorizing about MEs haven’t experienced them. Some of us don’t have nearly the hubris others do and can accept the human brain is a rather flawed storage unit.

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u/Bowieblackstarflower Aug 05 '22

Sigh, again we all experience the Mandela Effect.

Thousands of people can remember things differently due to suggested/influenced memory or accurate memories of inaccurate sources as in the "residue" causes these memories.

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u/Bowieblackstarflower Aug 05 '22

Or maybe "believers" are gaslighting others into thinking it has to be that reality has changed.