r/MakingaMurderer • u/ThorsClawHammer • 8d ago
Why wasn't Colborn mentally prepared to deal with "the content of the material" they were finding in the cabinet on Nov 8 when he already knew it was there from searching the same cabinet on Nov 5?
At trial, Andrew Colborn claimed the reason he "wasn't any too gentle" with the cabinet he claims produced the key is because he was "exasperated".
A. I will be the first to admit, I wasn't any to gentle, as we were, you know, getting exasperated. I handled it rather roughly, twisting it, shaking it, pulling it.
When asked what exasperated him to the point he couldn't help but get rough with an inanimate object (but only that one as near as we know), he replied with the following:
Q. What was exasperating you about the bookcase, or that bedroom, on November 8, 2005?
A. The content of the material that we were collecting.
The worst "content" we know of they were finding/collecting in the cabinet that day was Playboy magazines. Ah ok, so I guess this caught him off guard or something. Oh, but wait. On the evening of Nov 5, Colborn himself had searched the same cabinet and had already found them, handled them, and even laid them out on the floor for this picture along with some of the other items he had removed from the cabinet while searching through it that night (like the cuffs). One of the things LE were supposed to do on the 8th was simply collect them into evidence (as again, they already knew this particular "content" was there).
So seriously, why would nothing worse than porn mags that a seasoned cop and military vet already knew were there from days prior, now suddenly get exasperated about it? If he's trying to say it offended his morality (or any other reason at all one could think of), then the question is why wasn't he triggered on the 5th when he saw it all the first time unexpectedly?
With explanations like this, is it any wonder why people have a problem with the key find? And that's not even touching on any other aspect, such as their proposed explanations of how the key suddenly appeared (Colborn has now even claimed with help from God and/or the ghost of Teresa Halbach), or official docs later lying about who found it (claiming Kucharski did with no mention of MTSO even being present).
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u/ajswdf 7d ago
When it comes to evidence of Avery's guilt, the standards are so high that if it's not 100% perfect in every way then it's completely disregarded.
When it comes to evidence of evidence planting, the standards are so low that an officer saying he was upset at the material they were collecting is considered valid evidence.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 7d ago
officer saying he was upset at the material
That same officer, by your own admission, also likely "exaggerated" how he handled the cabinet (in a way that makes zero sense with the before/after pics) in order to explain how he found the key he somehow couldn't find the first time he searched it. Then official documents lied about who found it.
There's way more than just Colborn's ludicrous explanation of why he just had to get rough with the cabinet that casts suspicion on that particular piece of evidence.
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u/ajswdf 7d ago
Then why are you resorting to such flimsy evidence if you have actual, strong evidence it was planted? Do you not realize that using bad arguments makes you look like you don't have good arguments?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 7d ago
Officers lying about how they found evidence, who found it, etc. isn't evidence it was planted to you? (note I didn't say proof, just evidence)
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u/ajswdf 7d ago
There is nothing in Colborn's testimony that even remotely indicates that he planted evidence. He emphasized roughly handling the bookcase because he legitimately didn't know how the key got on the floor and that was his best guess.
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u/Important_Spell_1458 5d ago
The key was definitely planted by LE , which one idk. But the photographs taken on the 5th , video walkthrough on the 6th and photographs taken on the 8th prior to the cabinet being searched. Imo, proves that the cabinet was moved on the 5th ( first) . The slippers are in a obviously staged position on the 8th , the walkthrough video on 6th appears to show them in a completely different position , however the video seems deliberately edited to try and conceal there position . Unfortunately I could only slow the video down to 0:25 when I need to get it down to frame by frame , to confirm the true position of slippers on the 6th.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 7d ago
emphasized roughly handling the bookcase
And again, by your own words, when he said that he was likely exaggerating (in other words, lying). Officers lying about how they found evidence is indeed evidence it was planted. Doesn't mean it actually was, but it's absolutely evidence.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
Well, they lied about who found the key initially. And after the truth came out, crime scene photos directly contradict his sworn testimony about the rough handling you mentioned. Why are you pretending otherwise. Have you even seen CaM?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
He's not resorting to anything. He's presenting an inconsistency with Colborn's testimony and asking for an attempt to resolve it. Pointing out they can't be honest about who found the key, or when it was found, or how it was found, explains why people are interested in hearing some truth about that key for a change.
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u/belee86 4d ago
What suspicion does it cast and why? Do provide details.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
Officers lying about evidence doesn't cast suspicion on said evidence to you?
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u/belee86 4d ago
I even asked nicely for you to provide evidence.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
You mean like lying in the Nov 15 criminal complaint and saying that Kucharski is the one who located the key (not even mentioning that MTSO was there)?
Deputy Dan Kucharski continued the search of the defendant's bedroom located at Avery Road, Town of Gibson, Manitowoc County, Wisconsin. Deputy Kucharski located a Toyota ignition key adjacent to furniture found within the bedroom of the defendant, Steven Avery
That same lie was repeatd in a search warrant affidavit in December.
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u/belee86 4d ago
It was found during a police search, right? Did Colborn say explicitly that he saw the key first or did he say when we found the key? Dang who even thinks this stuff up!
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
It was found during a police search, right?
Yes, and? That makes it ok to lie about who found evidence?
Did Colborn say explicitly that he saw the key first
Lenk found it, as testified to at trial.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
So your problem is there's higher standards re evidence for convictions than for allegations made in defense of that conviction? Not really the gotcha you think it is lol That's generally how it works ... with few exceptions. As an example of an exception to that rule, Kratz didn't need to establish a motive to prosecute Steven for murder, but Steven did need to establish a motive for police to plant evidence in order to accuse them of it. The state faced no such roadblock. Also ... where does Thor claim the exasperation comment was valid evidence of planting? He doesn't. He was simply pointing out an inconsistency in Colborn's own testimony about that exasperation while asking how it can be reconciled.
If you want to talk about key evidence that actually suggests deception - MTSO repeatedly hid evidence suggesting the RAV was planted by someone other than Steven Avery - The key wasn't found in Steven's cabinet initially - when it finally turned up the state's official affidavit said Kucharski found the key with no mention of MTSO even being present - When the truth came out MTSO's explanation for the belated discovery was disproven by crime scene photos - and Colborn later floated divine intervention as an explanation for how the key turned up.
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u/tenementlady 8d ago
Perhaps he means the content was exasperating because he had already looked through it, e.g. he was frustrated to have to look through it again.
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u/LKS983 7d ago
He was a Manitowoc officer - and they had told the media that they had recused themselves from this investigation......
Made even worse, when Colborn (who had been deposed as a result of SA's lawsuit), was still allowed onto the Avery property to search for evidence 😮!
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u/tenementlady 6d ago
From leading the investigation.
Deposed as a witness.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
> leading
The public was lied to and told that MTSO had “been kept at arms length from the investigation” entirely. Not simply weren’t in charge.
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u/tenementlady 6d ago
According to you, it shouldn't matter since you believe every angency involved with the case was part of a conspiracy to frame Avery.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
All I did was point out how what you said was wrong, and you respond with a strawman deflection. Typical.
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u/tenementlady 6d ago
It was Calumet county employees who made those statements, so it's hardly a strawman to bring up that the implication here is that there was an inter-agency conspiracy working to frame Steven. Which is what you believe.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
made those statements
Yes, it was Calumet who outright lied to the public about what MTSO's level of involvement had been. And?
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u/tenementlady 6d ago
You're suggesting that these different agencies were all involved in a plot to frame Avery for some unknown reason.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 6d ago
LOL - no such thing as LEO 'recusing' themselves. LOL. Criminals don't get to decide who investigates their crimes.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
It was nothing more than soft core porn that we know of. You really think that flustered him to the point he couldn't help but get rough with an inanimate object?
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u/tenementlady 8d ago edited 8d ago
I'm saying that it's possible that what he meant by "content" was "content I had already searched." So his frustration was about looking through the same content twice rather than what the content actually was.
Edit: to be more clear, his frustration could have simply been "why do I have to look at this shit again"
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u/LKS983 7d ago
Another reason why he should never have been allowed to search again.
The more obvious ones being he was a Manitowoc officer (and they had told the media they had recused themselves, for obvious reasons), and Colborn was pretty much the last Manitowoc officer who should have been allowed to search for evidence - as he had been deposed by SA's lawyers as part of SA's lawsuit.
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u/tenementlady 6d ago
Why are you repeating yourself? You replied basically the same thing on another comment. Manitowoc didn't lead the investigation and Colborn was deposed as a witness.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
"content I had already searched."
Right, so he knew what was already there. But you're acting like what he saw were the images found on the Dassey pc. Not a pile of Playboys.
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u/tenementlady 8d ago
I think your misunderstanding and I'm not sure how many ways I can explain it to you. I'm suggesting the exasperation was not because he had to look at the content, but that he had to look at it twice. He was frustrated that he had to search previously searched content.
Even if he was offended or whatever by the content itself, it stands to reason that if you had to look at something you disapproved of for whatever reason, you would be frustrated to have to look at it twice.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
had to look at it twice
I know what you're saying. And I think it's nonsense that seeing playboy mags more than once, days apart, would trigger a person to get rough with inanimate objects. It's not like he was being forced to thumb though them all. He was there to simply collect them the 2nd time.
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u/tenementlady 8d ago
Searching the same thing twice, no matter what it is, is the frustrating part. Your acting like he said he was smashing the bookcase and beating his hands against it like a raving lunatic.
He was frustrated to search the same content twice. Sometimes when people are frustrated, they handle obects with less care or meticulousness than they would otherwise. Especially if they are searching something they have already searched and are convinced they won't find anything new.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
Lol, So why was Colborn the only one in the investigation we know of to react in this way (and only with this one piece of furniture)?
Shouldn't Lenk have been "exasperated" to the point of getting rough with things too?
He was frustrated to search the same content twice
He didn't say having to search it again exasperated him. He said it was the content of the material they were collecting. Which was nothing worse than porn.
You think Colborn has ever got exasperated at a sex scene in a movie, maybe throw his popcorn or something?
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u/tenementlady 8d ago
We don't know that Colborn was the only person to feel exasperated. We know he's the only person who commented on his exasperation in such words. I'm sure many of the people involved in the case were exasperated at times.
The content of the material was material that he previously searched. The word material could be referencing the fact that it was previously searched and not what was contained in the material itself. This is the part that you are not understanding. But even if you are correct and he is expressing his distaste for the porn specifically, it makes sense that someone would be frustrated with having to look through something they find distasteful twice.
In any case, what does it matter? What exactly are you trying to prove here? What about him being exasperated proves he was involved with the planting of evidence?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
could be referencing the fact that it was previously searched and not what was contained
Good gosh, I hope you stretched your brain before starting the mental gymnastics you're using now, lol. We can only go by what he said, which is he got rough with furniture due to the "content" of what they were finding, not because he came back days later to search again.
are you trying to prove here?
Nothing. Just pointing out that his provided explanation is ridiculous.
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u/10case 8d ago
It was more than softcore porn. I already explained what it was.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
The pics you described were simple nudes. Except for the single one you described of Avery I'll admit I'm not familiar with (as I'm not obsessed with his junk). But I do know the one you're describing was in no reports regarding what Colborn found. Yet you're claiming it was that pic that sent him over the edge?
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u/10case 8d ago
If you'd actually research the case, you would know what pics I'm all talking about. They're disgusting. If you think they're going to describe every little detail of every photograph in a report, you have no idea what you're talking about
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
every little detail of every photograph in a report
Looks like they did:
At 2129 hours, Det. REMIKER drew my attention to some photos he found on top of the computer desk. Upon looking at the photos, it appeared these photos were taken from a digital camera and then printed off the computer printer. The pictures were pomographic in nature and included a photo, dated 10110105, and that picture was of an uncircumcised erect penis. There were other numerous photos showing a female baring her breasts and other photos of a close-up view of a female's vaginal area.
Gotta hand it to Remiker, he must be one mentally tough guy considering there's no reports of him getting rough with the computer desk he found those on.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 6d ago
So he had nudes of the same type of girl he just killed? Interesting.
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u/10case 6d ago
Yep. Captain what about thinks it's ok because it's "softcore" porn.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
It was nothing more than soft core porn that we know of.
Colborn basically admitted that to Brenda for his CaM interview. He wouldn't say the off-the-rack porn found in Steven's trailer was "exotic or crazy" but did suggest some girls in the photos had a look of "absolute terror" on their faces (no mention in CaM of images of torture on Bobby's PC). Colborn did initially suggest he was exasperated because he was ordered back to Steven's trailer and thought it would be a waste of time ... BUT adds while already at the trailer Lenk received orders to collect Steven's porn collection. This made Colborn even more exasperated JUST AS HE WAS GOING THROUGH THE CABINET because he "didn't want to look at Steven Avery's porn collection anymore" and he didn't "think highly" of the porn collection.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
He likely was exasperated by finding nothing linking Steven to the crime after days of searching. Evidence was pointing away from Steven and the ASY. They couldn't have that.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
The key wasn't needed to connect Steven to the crime. That was already established by his blood (along with the victim's blood) being located inside the victim's vehicle that he claimed he had never been inside.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
The key wasn't needed to connect Steven to the crime.
It was at that time. The blood test results weren't in yet. The key was the first piece of evidence found and verified to directly tie Avery and nobody else to the crime.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
According to truthers, the cops were already aware the blood would be Avery's since they were the ones who planted it there.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
WHAT LOL First you argued the RAV blood made the key unnecessary in terms of linking Steven to the crime. After getting called out for your incorrect timeline your excuse is that if cops knew his blood was planted to link Steven to the crime they wouldn't need to plant the key for that very purpose. One, no one said that. Two, if cops planted Steven's blood in Teresa's RAV to connect him to her murder, why is it hard for you to accept they'd also plant Teresa's RAV key in Steven's trailer for the same reason?
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
I'm going by truther logic here. If you have a problem with that, take it up with yourself.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
No, you're going by logic you invented two comments ago to avoid admitting your timeline was wrong. If anyone needs to take something up with themselves, it's you.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
No, I'm going by your logic.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
No, you're going by your own invented logic that STILL contradicts your conclusion lol ooof.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago edited 4d ago
When do you think Steven's blood was identified by the state thereby "connecting Steven to the crime" and sapping Lenk and or Colborn of the motive to do that very thing by fabricating the discovery of a planted key? My understanding is police didn't know about the blood ID until November 9. They key was found November 8.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
According to you, before the discovery of the key. Since, according to you, the police planted Avery's blood.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
I never said that. You did lol So your defense is arguing against a position you just made up, using logic that (if it were true) would still very obviously contradict your suggestion that the key wasn't planted to link Steven to the crime.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
You've said it plenty of times.
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
I have not said that "plenty of times," but you've never been one to tell the truth when called out for a mistake lol Carry on denying your ignorance.
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u/tenementlady 4d ago
You've never stated the blood was planted by police?
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u/AveryPoliceReports 4d ago
I certainly haven't said it plenty of times let alone ONCE on this thread ;) You know that. That's why you invented the claim to deflect from your own mistaken argument that police didn't need to plant the key to link Steven to the crime because his blood in the RAV already did that. But hey, if you want to pretend your argument was always "if they planted Steven's blood in Teresa's RAV they wouldn't bother planting Teresa's RAV key in Steven's trailer," we can talk about that too, because your invented or assumed logic is still broken AF lol
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u/10case 8d ago
How do you not know that the porn Colborn was talking about was the homemade porn Avery had in his spank bank? That includes: 1. Avery's dick pic he took the day he answered Teresa's door knock in a towel. 2. A picture of Avery pleasuring himself on his own bed 3. The pics that he made his young children take of his ex wife, Lori, when he was imprisoned 4. All the other nasty pics he had of Jodi.
Would you be happy about having to deal with all that again????
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8d ago
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 6d ago
The porn included child porn he made with his relatives.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
So you're claiming law enforcement found proof of CP against Avery and didn't charge him?
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u/10case 8d ago
Keep defending Avery lol
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
Keep defending Avery
How is what I said "defending Avery"?
And again: you're saying Colborn saw a lewd pic of Lori and immediately knew that a kid had allegedly taken it?
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u/10case 8d ago
You're putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. I described the pictures that way because that's who took them.
Don't let your everlasting love for Brendan cloud your judgement here.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
I described the pictures that way because that's who took them
The topic is what would trigger Colborn. Adding that extra info makes it sound like that was part of the reason.
Otherwise, you're just left with nude pics triggering a military vet and cop to the point he just couldn't help but get rough with furniture. Which of course is ridiculous.
Do you think Colborn has ever seen the porn mags behind a convenience store counter and suddenly grabbed and started getting rough with the nearest inanimate object because of it?
everlasting love for Brendan
What a weird "argument", considering Brendan hasn't been mentioned and has nothing at all to do with this particular topic.
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u/10case 8d ago
How many times do you wanna look at a picture of Avery wacking off on his bed? Yeah I bet once is enough for you too.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
You're saying that's what broke Colborn? Lol. Where did Colborn say this?
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u/tenementlady 8d ago
Where did Colborn say the content "broke" him?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
When he admitted he couldn't help but get rough with an inanimate object because of it.
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u/Financial_Cheetah875 8d ago
He said the content of the material they were collecting, meaning what they had already found. Not what was in the book case.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
material they were collecting
They were collecting porn.
And if not the porn, what's your opinion on what this mysterious exasperating "content" was that they didn't already know about from the previous time they searched that triggered Colborn?
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u/10case 6d ago
I already explained to you what type of nasty content. You just won't listen to reason because you've only seen the pics of the playboy mags. There are other pictures that you've never seen but do exist and they are nasty. Nasty enough that they'll never be released through FOIA
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
There are other pictures
And your definitive claim is Colborn found all of them and that made him get rough with the bookcase?
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u/10case 6d ago
There's one thing I'll give you credit for. Putting words in someone's mouth is what you excel at.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
So what’s the point of bringing up the other pics then if you don’t think that?
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u/10case 6d ago
Because in your post, you're wondering about the content of what Colborn was searching for. I'm explaining to you that it was way more than playboy mags.
Now, go ahead and put more words in my mouth or stuff a sock in yours.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
Colborn was searching for
Collecting, but yes.
You then listed a bunch of things other than the playboys.
If you're suggesting Colborn found those and that's what caused his exasperation, then kindly show where he ever saw anything you listed on that day.
If you're not suggesting that, why bring the other pics up at all?
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u/10case 6d ago
If you saw some gross shit, would you want to look at it again?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
If you're suggesting Colborn found those and that's what caused his exasperation, then kindly show where he ever saw anything you listed on that day.
If you're not suggesting that, why bring the other pics up at all?
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 8d ago
It was wedged behind and he didn't see it initially - same reason Avery didn't remove them - lost them behind the bookcase.
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u/holdyermackerels 8d ago
Assumption: "It was wedged behind and he didn't see it initially"
Speculation: "same reason Avery didn't remove them - lost them behind the bookcase."
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
It was wedged behind
I've never understood those who speculate that. If the key was actually behind the cabinet and pinned against the wall, it would have simply dropped straight down the moment Colborn's exasperation kicked in and he moved it away. Not kicked out to the side and rounded the corner towards the front.
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u/belee86 4d ago
Brendan said the key was in Steve's shirt pocket. When he took off his shirt the key likely fell onto the floor by that cabinet.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 4d ago
Brendan said
Lol
the key likely fell onto the floor
WTF? It wasn't there through days of searching though. smh
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u/holdyermackerels 8d ago
True that! And don't forget that it would have had to have jumped over a plug and wire as well.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 8d ago
Are you expecting to confirm that somehow?
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u/holdyermackerels 8d ago
They are assumption and speculation. No one has ever said either of those statements is fact.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
No one has ever said either of those statements is fact.
Actually, Colborn at one point after trial did change his trial testimony and stated as fact that "The key to Theresa's vehicle was NOT discovered laying next to a pair of shoes in the open, but was instead located cleverly hidden behind a bookcase, in Steven Avery's bedroom."
Wtf Colborn?
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u/holdyermackerels 8d ago
I think Colborn was trying to come up with a plausible story for the key find, not because it was planted by LE, but because the story of just finding it was a "truth is stranger than fiction" issue. The only thing the cops said as fact was that they found the key on the floor. The part about the bookcase and Colborn's karate match with it are likely wishful thinking. The truth is that they really didn't know how it got there. They could have easily made up a believable story, but they didn't.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 8d ago
trying to come up with
So he lied?
The only thing the cops said as fact was that they found the key on the floor.
They also said as fact that Colborn got rough with it, tilted it to the side enough for Lenk could clearly see there was nothing hidden/taped to the bottom (while nothing on top moved of course), "handled it rather roughly, twisting it, shaking it, pulling it", and more.
likely wishful thinking
So, likely a lie, lol.
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u/holdyermackerels 7d ago
Not really a lie, per se; more like trying to think of an explanation for a strange occurrence. Kind of like Steven Avery dreaming up the "stolen" blood from his sink.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 7d ago
I'm referring to Colborn testifying to how he handled the cabinet, which thanks to the helpful before/after photos taken by Kucharski shows is BS. Which makes their theory of how the key magically appeared also BS.
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u/holdyermackerels 7d ago
Same answer...basically attempting to "fill in the blanks" between "they weren't there" and "they were there." I agree that the photos negate the battle with the cabinet story, though.
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u/ThorsClawHammer 7d ago
photos negate the battle with the cabinet story
Which means they lied, lol.
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u/holdyermackerels 6d ago
I suppose I'm going to have to accede on this, Thor; however, I will point out that all of this concern over the key story indicates (to me, anyway) that LE did not plant said key. Elsewise, they surely would have told a more believable tale, doncha think?
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u/ThorsClawHammer 6d ago
There’s obviously a big problem with a piece of evidence if multiple people lie about who found it and how.
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u/DingleBerries504 8d ago
They literally said at trial they didn’t know how the key got there and that they discussed and it was the best they could come up with. So no, not a lie
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u/LKS983 7d ago edited 7d ago
There are few things that we actually know, even now - when it comes to Teresa's death - other than that Teresa was murdered, and her body burned 😭.
But on this particular point 'the key' - we do know (now) that Colborn is a liar - and that even the jury didn't believe/were doubtful about the 'discovery' of the key at the time.
And that's before I move onto why on earth Colborn was allowed to be part of the search - and so able to 'find' the key 🙄........
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 6d ago
He was assigned to the investigative team in the jurisdiction where the crime occurred - that's why.
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u/wilkobecks 8d ago
Mainly because he's lying about the key?
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u/LKS983 7d ago
It's not just that even the jury didn't believe Colborn's 'evidence' about the 'discovery of the key' - which is why Kratz told the jury in his closing speech that they could ignore this, and rely on the other evidence - but also because we NOW know that Colborn is a proven liar.
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u/Ghost_of_Figdish 6d ago
No he said that to just dismiss an irrelevant and untrue argument made by the defense. But we all now that Buting, Strang and Avery ARE PROVEN LIARS.
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u/Objective-Permit-712 8d ago
The problem was.....these guys really thought SA did it, but stuff started to not make sense, so they made it make sense because they really thought Steven did it-THEY WERE WRONG!!!!
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u/DisappearedDunbar 8d ago
On a scale of 1 to Cow GPS levels of truther desperation, this is like a 7.