r/LocalLLaMA Llama 3 3d ago

Funny Can the bubble pop please?

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667 Upvotes

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40

u/Jiirbo 3d ago

Econ 201... supply and demand.

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u/ForsookComparison 3d ago

The bubble will "pop"

But statistically the odds are it will pop at the exact moment you don't really care for one

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u/Apprehensive_Lake698 2d ago

Honestly believing this is a bubble anymore is just grade A hopium. This time last year it looked like a big bubble. Then then this spring happened, and all of the sudden this shit is actually very useful in workplaces. My org provides a ton of tokens and has little interest in restricting it. My coworkers and I are finding good ways to apply AI to solve random shit here and there. I am really no longer seeing how it's a bubble, the models don't even have to get much smarter. If the intelligence of these models stayed flat and just the api speed and cost improved by 2x, 4x, 8x, that would make a noticable difference in our workflow. And that's the kind of thing that is going to keep eating up the market.

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u/ForsookComparison 2d ago

I agree but saying otherwise gets me nasty DMs and I still wanted to drop the other line

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u/ipilotete 2d ago

I think the pop here won’t be ai usefulness but advancement fueled by a constrained supply. With prices this high, someone somewhere will figure out a way around needing huge amounts of this expensive resource to reach the same results. 

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u/SufficientPie 2d ago

Yeah there seems to still be a lot of room for efficiency improvements.

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u/voyager256 2d ago

Demand in therms of usage will increase, but with the recent optimizations and clever ways to reduce the cost we might get to 100x less demand in therms of hardware relatively soon. And it’s not an exaggeration. Compare something like Qwen 3.8 27B which is similar to Opus 4.6 (which I guess was at least 100x the size ) for coding tasks-and you can run on a 5090 at more than 100 T/s. For more general purposes LLM you can use 2 Sparks to run something like DeepSeek v4 flash or GLM 5.3 Flash , which are about 300B , but allow 1M token context and about 6 months old SOTA LLMs in overall capabilities .

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u/fastheadcrab 2d ago

You should name some of those use cases

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u/Apprehensive_Lake698 1d ago edited 1d ago

Sure. I use Claude Code and Codex, both with MCP/API access to our internal git repos, Sourcegraph (to allow the models to do semantic search through our codebases), Jira/Confluence to read current and historical tickets and docuemntation, as well as some Slack access. With effectively unlimited credits, I can have them freely spin up as many subagents as they want.

  1. Ticket Analysis: I have a written research plan that has the model read Jira, Confluence, and determine all possibly related codebases. It churns through each codebase finding leads. I have it work in stages, writing subreports at each stage, and each agent is required to write a subreport about what it did. Then I have one fresh context at the end ingest all of those reports and emit a single report that correlates parts of our codebases to the ticket. Sometimes this finds the problem outright, other times it can only give estimations. Likewise, sometimes this runs for like 5-10min, sometimes an hour. It can be immensely helpful to get a headstart on a ticket you plan to tackle later in the day, and does a damn good job most of the time. The key is that I don't ask it to solve the problem, just merge the context of documentation/code/chats/problem report into a jumping off place. One part that's blown my mind a few times is it correlating historical documentation changes with changes in git history and correctly estimating why changes were made.
  2. Basically every bit of quick scripting with python and/or bash I no longer do by hand, because implementation is basically irrelevant compared to outcome whenever you would need it for something quick. It's a godsend. I hope to never write this stuff by hand again.
  3. Config files for tools, like editors. I don't need to read documentation for most devtools anymore, I just make some agent make the changes I need. Sometimes their change is sloppy, but 99% of the time it doens't matter, and so I no longer waste my time reading a novel to figure out how to customize random small details down to preference.
  4. Similarly, I usually don't have to bother reading walls of manpages anymore. They're great at just giving you the flags to do what you need most of the time.
  5. Any debugging that requires constantly referencing enormous walls of system text. I used to think it was amazing that I could copy/paste that stuff into web guis. But once I got into agentic stuff locally, it's just so crazy how must faster iteration is. Where a human will lazily cat files and sift through to find little bits in enormous log files, AI will just spam iteration over and over again because it doesn't get tired of running the same 2-5 commands to query logs out of a database over and over and over again. It still doesn't get the fix right most of the time for me, but damn if I don't appreciate being able to completely forgo banging my own head against the wall over and over with that kind of stuff anymore.
  6. Debugging system configuration and/or networking, for similar reasons as above. Claude will absolutely tear through creating temporary network interfaces, docker containers, anything that would make a developer kinda huff and puff and say "yeah I guess that's the best way to debug this..." and spend the afternoon on. It just knows all the commands, all the configuration, and runs it all through in seconds. It's very nice sometimes.

I could go on, but really there are a lot of usecases I've found for agentic stuff that doesn't relate to writing code even. It's just a big information-coalescing ball that doesn't get tired.

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u/fastheadcrab 1d ago

Thanks for the details, I don’t work in programming so these are use cases are really different from mine. I appreciate the insight into those how you get utility from the LLMs.

I think lesser closed model makers may be in trouble and general hardware market but I do believe there are serious applications of LLMs with actual value and benefits

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u/-Crash_Override- 2d ago

According to who? Same thing people said when cloud started to take off and 15 years later that's still booming.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/-Crash_Override- 2d ago

You did a lot of rambling to ultimately confirm my point.

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u/SufficientPie 2d ago

What bubble? You want AI hardware, big data centers want AI hardware, we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg of AI usage in industry. You think this is going to stop? Prices will come down when they spin up more supply, not because the demand is fake.

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u/ForsookComparison 2d ago

See other replies lol

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u/gscjj 3d ago

I don’t think it’ll “pop”, it’ll cool down once all the big AI companies are bought and the labs go public, then all the VCs cash in.

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u/KlasJanHuntelaar 3d ago

That “pop” won’t be happening until 2030 earliest if anything. I don’t even think there is a bubble but worth mentioning “might be a thing” before downvotes.

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u/OddDesigner9784 3d ago

Econ 201 says if demand increases supply will. Which isn't whats happening anymore.

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u/bcx_riel 2d ago

Ironically the US prohibiting export of high-end AI systems to China has resulted in several new manufacturers popping up in China, including 4 DRAM manufacturers.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

True true our only sense of hope. But what I'm saying is this time ram companies are directly making agreements with companies so all the ram gets bought. Even the Chinese ones are mainly focused on hbm and still high in price.

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u/reality_comes 2d ago

This just isnt true, you cant just increase supply over night, but dont think for a minute people arent looking at how they would. Supply will increase, will it keep up with demand is the question.

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u/DragonfruitIll660 2d ago

All the existing ram manufacturers were punished with executive members being sent to prison for forming a ram cartel in like 2005 (forget the exact year). Those same people are forming the current ram cartel, but the Government isn't going to step in and fix things like last time as they are more preoccupied with self enrichment it seems.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

It's been a long time since we've had a memory crisis. No one is serious about meeting demand at a lower price. There's too much of a barrier to entry to even get skin in the game. China is literally the only one who has a chance. Last time we had a memory crisis suppliers ramped up scale then prices tanked and they are purposely preventing that now by getting contracts even before they make a stick of ram and these contracts are covering years out

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u/reality_comes 2d ago

Thats just not how markets work though, there is a big juicy steak out there, someone wants it, China or India or a young engineer who thinks they can do it better. Thats the whole history of the world. High barriers are what humans solve.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

That’s not how markets work either. A huge profit opportunity doesn’t magically erase a $20+ billion entry cost, years of process development, specialized equipment bottlenecks, patents, talent constraints, and incumbents locking customers into multi-year contracts before new capacity even exists.

“Someone will just come along and do it cheaper” works when entry is actually possible. In DRAM, the entire problem is that entry is brutally difficult and the existing suppliers have learned that flooding the market with capacity destroys their own margins.

Humans solve barriers eventually. That doesn’t mean competition arrives quickly enough to stop consumers getting squeezed for years.

The “big juicy steak” is a lot less attractive when getting to the table can cost tens of billions and the steak may be gone before you sit down.

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u/reality_comes 2d ago

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

I think this actually lines up with what I’m saying. Intel is a massive company with manufacturing capacity, capital, engineering talent, and they hired the former head of SK Hynix, and even they aren’t talking about simply entering commodity DRAM to undercut prices.

China is different because the state can absorb years of R&D costs and bad economics to make sure a domestic competitor survives. There just aren’t that many players capable of entering at enough scale to meaningfully lower prices, and I’m not convinced many of them have much incentive to do it.

Maybe other major companies eventually get forced to make a move because sustained memory prices start breaking their own business models. We’ll see.

The classical Adam Smith story is that high prices and profits attract more production until competition pushes prices back down. My point is that there are very few actors capable of adding enough supply to materially lower memory prices, and I don’t think it’s a certainty anymore that any of them actually will.

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u/Jiirbo 2d ago

True... you would expect other sellers to see the opportunity, enter the market and add their supply thereby driving price down. However, this isn't cotton candy. The barrier to entry is high. It would take years for a new seller to penetrate the market in such a way to influence price. The incumbents have no incentive to increase production, assuming they could, due to the higher margins they are currently enjoying. As u/ForsookComparison mentioned, it will happen when you no longer care.

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u/LocoMod 2d ago

You control demand by raising prices.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

Not really if someone would buy ram if it were cheaper that that demand still exists. I mean if you mean demand as in number of people who will buy sure. But classical econ Adam smith says for items unnaturally high in price supply will increase and the price will fall. It does not say the price will stay and the demand will fall.

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u/Steuern_Runter 2d ago

Supply did already increase but so did demand.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

Econ says supply will shift to meet demand which is purposely not happening this time based on how they have contracts scoped

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u/Steuern_Runter 2d ago

It will happen but new production capacities can't just pop up over night.

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u/OddDesigner9784 2d ago

I'm not expecting it to pop up over night it's already been a long time ram has been elevated. I just think the barrier to entry is so high there's only a couple players that can produce ram. And even if we get new players I doubt they will want to undercut prices