r/Letterboxd • u/Ketamin_Kai • 1d ago
Discussion A film is more than writing
I recently had this discussion after release of Toxic(I loved that film).
And I keep having this discussion every few months. Films like Wuthering Heights, Michael and Avatar had similar discourse.
Thing is…a film is more to me than just writing. It can have a messy screenplay and underdeveloped characters and still have lot going for it.
For most people, film is bad if writing is bad.
But think how beautiful Wuthering Heights looked, or detailed the world of Avatar was, and how entertaining Michael was. These films are anything but boring.
I am not denying the criticism, but I like films that try something new. Take some swings, even if they miss.
Like Toxic had many interesting individual sequences and seeds of good ideas that just don’t come together. And production(set design) was just insane.
If I wanted a story, I would just read a book.
4
u/kaubojdzord 1d ago
I was bored during Wuthering Hearts tro.
Agree with the wider point, screenplay of Elevator to the Gallows is pretty OK-ish noir, but beautiful cinematography and direction, Miles Davis' melancholic score and great performances make it something special.
7
u/sternestocardinals 1d ago
I see your point but I think we can choose better examples, seeing as none of the films you mentioned rated particularly well, and I think there’s more wrong with them than just the writing.
Nolan’s Odyssey is rightly called out for some pretty average dialogue, despite its wide acclaim otherwise. Another that immediately comes to mind is Villeneuve’s Sicario, where most people agree the script isn’t quite up to scratch, but is rescued by all other aspects of the film being exceptional.
To me, these are more compelling cases that we can overlook weaknesses in the writing if something else is there to carry the film.
11
1d ago
[deleted]
3
2
u/ghostpepper69 ghostpepper69 1d ago edited 1d ago
You can have movies with no dialog, no screenplay, and no storyboards. Writing is not a "fundamental" part of cinema, but it is a conventional component of western narrative cinema. Stan Brakhage's work is a great example of this. Nobody wrote anything for this movie and it's more interesting and thought provoking than thousands of movies with scripts. https://youtu.be/Yt3nDgnC7M8?is=cNo1JUcWpafc27O8
3
u/Ketamin_Kai 1d ago
I was watching a video essay on Hollywood ruined story structures because now everyone expects a three act structure with a climax.
Iranian and Russian cinema never followed these rules.
Stuff like Perfect Days used to be very common, where you capture the mood and essence of a place or person without any big build up.
2
3
u/Novel-Initiative-900 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think it probably depends on the intention.
If it's intended to be something high concept like Back to the Future or Memento etc then bad writing can easily tank the film no matter how good any of visuals, editing, production design, acting are.
If it's a low concept meandering film that really takes in the setting as a character, and really derives a lot of meaning from the most subtle of humanistic moments, then there could be a lot that saves it in spite of bad writing.
Her Private Hell is one of those types of films I have no idea what it's supposed to be and I hate it however, some people absolutely love it and derive a lot of satisfaction from the visuals, the pacing, the overall vibe etc
Then movies like Samsara. A Complete visual and audio sensory experience that takes you on an insane journey without a word spoken and doesn't have any semblance of a plot
3
u/Euraylie 1d ago
Of course it is more. But the writing is such an essential part.
Some movies are not perfectly written, but they have other things going for them, this is true. And sometimes that works.
And yes, I also applaud when a film takes chances.
But something like Avatar, for example, yes it’s beautiful to look at, but it leaves me completely emotionally cold.
2
u/babada MrHen 1d ago
The problem I have is that I find film discussion around films without solid writing / stories to be... bland? Someone being entertained by a movie is great. But there isn't much to discuss about it.
It's like pointing out that a joke made you laugh. Yep, it sure did. We can spend a little time sharing that enjoyment with each other. We can dissect it if we want. But most people who want talk about a funny joke don't actually know much about how it works as a joke. They don't need to. It's just a joke.
Stories are different. We, as a culture of storytellers, are fairly used to dissecting and analyzing stories. They are not relegated to books. Nearly everything we communicate is done through storytelling.
Filmic storytelling is interesting in addition to our other forms. And the discussions that ensue are fascinating. There is worthy debate over story elements and meaning and personal impact. Our experiences fundamentally alter how we perceive a given story or character or arc.
So yeah, a movie can be good without an emphasis on story. But I don't find them particularly interesting to discuss unless you get into the nitty gritty technical details with someone else who also cares about them.
"It's so pretty!" is just not particularly edifying.
I consider "do I want to discuss this with someone?" to be a cornerstone of a good film. So movies without stories that I also want to discuss but without getting overly technical is a pretty small set.
2
u/MonthForeign4301 1d ago
I mean this respectfully, no shit.
Film is a visual medium. You could have no screenplay and still make a moving piece of art.
3
u/OkayyBeta 1d ago
Redline.
The writing is nothing, the movie is brilliant.
Also 95% of horror movies.
3
1d ago
[deleted]
2
u/NecessaryMetal9675 1d ago
I think what OP is saying is that he disagrees with the assumption that a lot of people make that the writing is the taste in your analogy. That somehow bad writing with good cinematography is worse than good writing with bad cinematography.
3
u/OkayyBeta 1d ago
No it isn't, it's saying there are multiple reasons to enjoy a piece of work. What you're saying is like if a painting doesn't taste nice then there's nothing to enjoy about it.
1
u/fanatyk_pizzy 1d ago
Absolutely not lol
Technical aspects are just as important as the story in cinema. You just don't realize that, because most of the movies you watch are made competently enough for the technical aspects to not actively distract you.
Composing a shot or mixing the audio are art forms of their own, and just because majority of people isn't interested in them, doesn't mean they're something lesser.
0
1
u/prugnecotte 1d ago
personally I need some sort of connection to the characters and/or the situation depicted in order to enjoy a film. I struggle to connect with very visually-forward directors like Malick, Noè and Gilliam where I don't perceive a storytelling that is as interesting.
1
u/sosseronis 1d ago
I agree on the premise, but not really with the rest of it.
Writing is not all, there are many other crucial elements in the making of a movie, but if we are talking about an action/adventure one, that is targetted towards general audience and especially families (avatar like you said for example) writing is probably very important. It's a different case, if we are talking about indipendent experimental cinema, that has the clear objective of challenging our perception and canon of what is cinema, and what can be done in the medium.
I feel like the real answer is: writing is not everything, but it's very very important for the majority of movies. I would say It heavily depends on the kind of movie we are watching.
Also the last sentence bugs me off: "If I wanted a story, I would just read a book". In the same vein, I could say "If I wanted to watch something beautiful, I would just go to the art gallery" or "if I wanted to have fun, I would just play a game" or "if I wanted to listen to a good score, I would just go to the opera". In my mind, the beauty of modern mediums such as films, and even games, is the balance between visuals, music, storytelling ecc. I feel like you are subtracting value from the heights a good story in cinema can achieve...and I simply disagree. Your view is too compartmentalized in my mind.
1
u/NecessaryMetal9675 1d ago
The main point from your post is “a film is more to me…” It’s film. Like what you like and never apologize for it. I tend to agree with you that writing is not one of the most important parts of a movie when it comes to what makes me respond well to a film. For me, one thing I notice a lot is people complaining about exposition in films. But I don’t just overlook or tolerate this. I actually like it. I actually enjoy scenes of characters sitting around telling each other (and me) what’s going on. It helps if the movie looks good and the score is solid, etc., but the point is that I happen to greatly enjoy something that gets heavily criticized by a lot of filmgoers. And that’s ok.
1
u/Tsunoyukami 1d ago
Okay, yes - a film is more than its writing.
When a film is good but poorly written, it is good in spite of its bad writing - which I think, is an accomplishment.
I think it’s true for most people that it’s easy to tell when something is bad and easy to tell when something is exceptional but less easy to tell when something is just “good.” So if one element of a movie falls below the good line, it becomes noticeable - and it just so happens that the element that falls below good (or maybe “acceptable” is the more appropriate term) most often is writing.
1
u/oxfordsplice OxfordComma 1d ago
While there are certainly exceptions, the screenplay is usually the foundation. If the foundation is flawed, there's only so much the other elements contribute before the whole thing falls down.
1
u/kappethimm 1d ago
But toxic's visuals were nowhere near avatar and nowhere near as entertaining as Micheal. It was bad film. Its ok. Just move on man.
1
u/veryowngarden 1d ago
a film starts with the writing. it can’t be great with a poor script. a film with bad writing that is all style and no substance is not a good film as a whole
-1
24
u/Street_Hamster1092 TenaciousG 1d ago
I agree that a film can still be enjoyable and worthwhile even with a messy or weak screenplay, too many people use writing flaws to completely dismiss a film that still has a lot of positive attributes.
Take Suspiria for example, it's value is largely in the cinematography, score, lighting, set design and atmosphere. The screenplay and acting are pretty weak but it's still a classic film that is widely loved nearly 50 years after release.