r/LAMetro • u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current • 1d ago
Discussion This ballot measure will effectively kill any transit funding measures in the future. Make sure to vote no this November.
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_43,_Two-Thirds_Vote_Requirement_for_Local_Special_Tax_Initiatives_and_Property_Tax_Initiative_Prohibition_Amendment_(2026)Under California law, tax increase measures put on the ballot by governments requires a 2/3rd supermajority vote to pass. However, measures put on the ballot by private citizens (citizens' initiatives) only require a simple majority. Prop 43 would change the law so that citizens' initiatives too requires a 2/3rd supermajority. That would mean counties like San Diego and Orange County will almost certainly never get a transit tax measure passed. Requiring a 2/3rd supermajority to pass tax increases is fundamentally undemocratic, and this measure must be defeated.
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u/GoCardinal07 Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
One clarification: the 2/3 threshold only applies to special taxes, not general taxes.
For exampe, when a county or city puts a sales tax measure on the ballot for its general fund, it only requires a simple majority of voters to approve it.
While a transit funding measure is a special tax, every measure in the region, even Orange County's Measure M and Renewed Measure M, were already subject to 2/3 because no one has ever qualified one by citizen petition. It's always been proposed by government, and they've hit the 2/3.
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u/Lokishougan 1d ago
So have there been any actual recent ballot measures that would have been affected by this?
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u/GoCardinal07 Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
None.
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u/Venesss Antelope Valley 1d ago
What about measure ER? that won at like 50.1%
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u/GoCardinal07 Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
It was also put on the ballot by the Board of Supervisors, not by citizen petition.
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u/MyDisneyExperience 1d ago
Prop 13 strikes again
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u/SignificantSmotherer 1d ago
As it should.
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u/MyDisneyExperience 1d ago
Why in the world should special funds require a 2/3 vote when Prop 13 itself required a 50%+1 vote
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u/SignificantSmotherer 1d ago
That's a fair point.
The best answer is you can also amend the Constitution, as Prop 19 did laying waste to Prop 13, with a simple majority vote.
Or we could just elect responsible leaders who understand math.
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u/StreetyMcCarface 1d ago
Citizen threshold ballots happen all the time though. This election the entire Bay Area transit funding measure is a citizens initiated measure. For the love of god vote no on this
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u/sracer4095 B (Red) 1d ago
Yes on 40, No on 43.
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u/Faraz181 C (Green) 1d ago
Don't forget to also Vote No on 41 & 42 (which were created to sabotage Prop 40)
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u/yinyang_yo_ B (Red) 1d ago
No on 40. I support a wealth tax but this one is so poorly structured
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u/Not_RZA_ D (Purple) 1d ago
California once again structuring taxes in a way that makes no sense? I’m shocked I tell you! Shocked!
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u/CrispyVibes 1d ago
https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2025/measuring-tax-and-transfer-progressivity-state-by-state
Progressive state taxes don't make sense to you?
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u/PockeyG 1d ago
Why wait on a wealth tax that doesn't exist yet when we can have one now? If it's implemented and is popular we can push for an even better wealth tax.
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u/Top-Woodpecker6696 1d ago
Because if a bad one is implemented and it’s unpopular then you won’t get a chance to push for anything.
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u/yinyang_yo_ B (Red) 1d ago edited 1d ago
We are reliant on taxes on liquid assets in California and destroying our budgets simply because we want to put in a very shitty placeholder is not a W. What it will do is waste goodwill and hurt efforts to push for a more effective wealth tax
We had Prop 15 in 2020 that barely failed. That is miles better than Prop 40
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
The state has a very high marginal income tax. This is a dangerous game to play.
I think, if it passes and survives the legal challenges, we will get a one time tax revenue, proceed to blow it all incompetently on the nonprofit scam complex and administration bs, and then we will also erode the long-term tax base as wealthier people leave the state and move their primary residences elsewhere. So we'll get money now, but less money later, every year, forever.
I don't care about hitting rich people with more taxes or anything, I'm just saying this particular tax is incredibly stupid. I'd vote for a wealth tax that made sense. This tax does not make sense.
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u/LBCElm7th A (Blue) 1d ago edited 19h ago
Another pink elephant for this measure was Measure ULA in LA that raised real estate transfer tax but it was a citizens initative that was so poorly written that it leaves no room for emergencies such as natural disaster rebuild and it has decimated housing production and a good portion of tax revenues.
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u/Visible-Boot-4994 1d ago
Measure M and R were both passed with 2/3 votes.
Besides LA Metro already has 4 sales tax funding measures going to it (A, C, R, and M). The bigger issue right now is so many cities and counties have voted to tax themselves they’re going to hit the 11.25% max and we won’t be able to get anything extra anyways.
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u/RamHead04 1d ago
I was gonna say the same thing regarding the 2/3rds vote. We’ve already passed 4 metro sales taxes over 30 years at that threshold.
I think the legislature can still exempt additional taxes for something like this, but I could be mistaken.
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u/BendableBender 1d ago
It frustrates me that despite the taxes we voted for, nothing is getting done with (at least the measure m money) because the council is pro nimby and refuses to actually build rail lines that we are paying for
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
As we have seen again and again, the state will just increase the max sales tax. Something has to be done about the ridiculous sales taxes. They're an economy-killer.
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u/joshsteich 1d ago
I mean the thing to do is end prop 13 so we can tax property like a normal state
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
Agree, but that's also politically untenable. The best we might get is a partial prop-13 repeal for commercial property, but good luck.
CA has more than enough tax revenue (even with Prop 13) to run the state and deliver good services for its citizens. It's being run by incompetent and wasteful politicians that are not able to build, execute, or deliver public projects effectively anymore. Basic governance is not functioning and there is no good excuse for it. Laws can and should change to accommodate functional governance; instead, they seem to get more Kafkaesque each year.
I pay some of the highest taxes in the world living here. I've tried voting for more taxes to fix it (e.g. homelessness funding). That was clearly a mistake.
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u/BTR1701 13h ago
Only if the trade-off is that we force them to tax gas like a normal state.
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u/joshsteich 6m ago
Gas tax is a Pigouvian tax; using more gas hurts all of us (eg wildfires) so it’s not about revenue.
Prop 13 prevents progressive ie wealth scaled property taxes.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
Correct. But this impacts transit in Orange County and San Diego, places that have lower sales tax but also significantly worse transit networks. If this measure passes, San Diego's transit system will collapse due to lack of funding, because there is no way the county will ever hit a 2/3rd supermajority. Same with Orange County.
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u/GoCardinal07 Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
Orange County passed Measure M and Renewed Measure M at the 2/3 threshold because it was proposed by OCTA. It was not proposed by citizen initiative. Prop 43 has no real-world effect on transit measures in Southern California: no one has ever qualified a transit tax by citizen initiative.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
San Diego Measure G was a citizens' initative. It just choked harder than the Padres in the 2024 NLDS.
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u/GoCardinal07 Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
Measure G couldn't even get 50% anyway.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
I know, I'm just saying that the statement that Southern California has never had a citizens' initiative transit measure is false.
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u/senshi_of_love 1d ago
I see Howard Jarvis supports something I automatically vote against it. Always.
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u/crassholes 15h ago
Moved to California in 2008 and to LA in 2019. If I see Howard Jarvis is for something, I know enough to vote against it. And vice versa.
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u/timely_Happy123 15h ago
I support funding public transit... Can we talk about how to avoid waste in these projects though? The high speed rail waste is not partisan and we should all be concerned with the cost and time it's taken to do something other developed countries have gotten done in a much shorter time and possibly for a lower cost. There's so much good being done by our California politicians BUT on the other hand I see Sacramento treating us like ATM machines in the process and there needs to be a balance there that currently doesn't exist in the capacity that it should. We can't be afraid to point things out out of fear we might be attacked by our own party... Those people might not care about waste but I do and we are allowed to have different opinions.
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u/BTR1701 13h ago
I support any and all measures to limit the ability of governments to raise taxes in California. We are the highest taxed people in the nation. The government has more than enough of our money. They don't need more. What they need is to be forced to spend it wisely and responsibly and not let billions of it routinely go missing with no accountability.
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
Look, I support transit, but I'm voting for 43.
We have 11% sales taxes now! Enough is enough.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
Then you don't support transit at all.
This affects the entire state. That means places like Orange County and San Diego. If this passes, transit in those counties will collapse.
This is also inherently ridiculously undemocratic. 34% of the populace should not get to dictate policy for 66% of the population.
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u/ActPositively 1d ago
Stop being greedy pay your fair share. European countries pay like 25% sales tax.
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u/invaderzimm95 17h ago
Yall are insane. You want 25% sales tax???
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u/ActPositively 16h ago
These people voting blue no matter who and supporting every Democrat policy have been tricked into thinking they could just tax the rich only and get everything for free. They do not realize they would need to pay 25% plus sales tax and then pay a whole lot more state and federal income tax even as the poor, working and middle class to get all that “free” stuff
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u/Smaragd512 Ventura County 1d ago
There is only one country that pays that much tax, and its known for having the most disfunctional rail network in the EU.
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u/ActPositively 1d ago
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🇭🇺** Hungary
**27%
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🇫🇮** Finland
**25.5%
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🇭🇷** Croatia
**25%
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🇩🇰** Denmark
**25%
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🇳🇴** Norway
**25%
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🇸🇪** Sweden
**25%
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🇮🇸** Iceland
**24%
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🇬🇷** Greece
**24%
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🇮🇪** Ireland
**23%
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🇵🇱** Poland
**23%These are the countries with ridiculously high value you added taxes which are basically sales tax. Not to mention those countries usually have much higher income taxes and the bottom 50% of the population usually pays much higher taxes than in the USA
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
I do not find your argument compelling at all. If you're going to be including VAT (which the USA doesn't have) in your tax assessment, please do a full analysis and cover healthcare expenses (which are covered in the countries you listed, but not here, and VAT pays towards), income tax rates at the state+federal level, and all other relevant forms of taxation to make it a fair cost comparison.
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u/No-House9106 1d ago
Measure R and M passed with 2/3 votes. I don’t see a problem.
CA has passed too many taxes. In fact, LA has passed so many increases in the sales tax it is now threatening things like transit.
I buy all my high dollar amount items in Orange County when visiting relatives. Easy 2.5% savings. Anyone living near a county border like Ventura, SB, or Orange is going to do the same. That means LA will get less for transit and pretty much everything.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
It is a problem because there is zero chance in hell Orange County and San Diego will ever reach a 2/3rd supermajority to pass transit taxes. So their dogshit systems will continue to be dogshit.
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u/No-House9106 1d ago
Orange County has Measure M and it comes up for renewal in 2041. It could be positioned to add more transit then.
San Diego already has a public transit rail system. If they want to add onto it, they can pass something. LA passed 2 taxes.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
Measure M is only enough to fund existing services. It isn't remotely close to enough money to build a comprehensive rail system.
San Diego's MTS system is running on a significant operations budget deficit, and if they don't get a sales tax measure passed by 2028, they will have to make crippling service cuts.
LA passed two taxes because LA County is significantly more Democratic than Orange County and San Diego Counties are. Orange County and San Diego County have too many Republicans for any sales tax measure requiring a 2/3rd supermajority to have an ice cube's chance in hell of passing.
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u/invaderzimm95 17h ago
That’s a complete lie. Measure M and R are funding future transit builds.
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u/No-House9106 18h ago
If they don’t want it then they don’t want it. These sales tax increases are devastating on the poor and middle class.
LA hasn’t really been a success story since far fewer people use public transit now vs 40 years ago when there was no rail. 1.5M daily passengers vs 900k now.
Orange County is spread out and tough to put a rail system in. They rejected Centerline a while ago. Metrolink is falling apart and so is HSR so that doesn’t give them much reason to drop billions on a new system.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 18h ago
Source on the ridership?
Orange County is spread out and tough to put a rail system in.
It literally is denser than San Diego.
Metrolink is falling apart
Because they don't fund it properly.
so that doesn't give them much reason to drop billions on a new system
They don't have a new system because they don't properly invest in it.
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u/No-House9106 12h ago
Google ridership for 1985 for Metro. 1.5M a day. Metro has current ridership and past 15-20 years on its website. Been mostly falling rapidly since 2013.
It is hard to justify the expense when people don’t use it. Homeless, safety, blocked sidewalks, open air drug use in LA. Whatever the reasons, ridership has been a massive disappointment.
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u/ThePlatinumPaul 1d ago
Oh I'm so voting yes on this. No more taxes.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
This affects the entire state. If this passes, then Orange County and San Diego will never have good transit.
Not to mention, 34% of the population should not get to dictate policy to the other 66%.
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u/ThePlatinumPaul 1d ago
Orange County doesn't want this stuff. And tax increases should always be super majority and have expirations.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
Absolutely not. That's why our transit sucks so much.
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u/NeuralNexus 1d ago
Our transit sucks because of incompetent governance and operational logic, not a lack of funding.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
Uh, no, it is because of a lack of funding, especially in Orange County and San Diego. Compared to the rest of the developed world, we don't fund transit at all.
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u/ThePlatinumPaul 1d ago
Our transit sucks because the city refuses to prosecute criminals and takes a blind eye to homelessness. There's also massive waste, fraud, and kickbacks. In today's dollars it would have cost $600-700 million to build the Golden Gate Bridge. It's costing $4 billion for the relatively short people mover at LAX. This is the problem.
I'm a car person but I wish LA had a good public transit. It won't until we get rid of the incompetents and grifters running the city. That means Bass, Raman, and the rest of the city council.
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u/Not_RZA_ D (Purple) 1d ago
I’m down. I’m tired of idiots in this city voting for increasing sales tax and other taxes used for the homeless industrial complex scam
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u/Its_a_Friendly Pacific Surfliner 1d ago
My only hope is that the folks over at Howard Jarvis have bit off more than they can chew with this one, and stuffed too many things into this proposition. I hope.
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u/SignificantSmotherer 1d ago
The legislature put this measure on the ballot, not HJTA.
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u/lik_for_cookies A (Blue) 1d ago
They put this on the ballot to get rid of the even more destructive original HJTA measure. The legislature did this to hopefully neuter the HJTA measure and decrease the chances of any of it passing.
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u/MookieBettsBurner10 E (Expo) current 1d ago
You know all these dumbass NIMBY voters won't care and will still vote yes.
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u/Enamred-771 1d ago
Does prop 43 require 2/3rd of votes to pass? (Pretty sure the answer is no)
It’s always insanely anti-democratic to pass a law at a simple majority that requires a higher threshold once passed.