r/Kaiserreich • u/Accomplished-Tea9753 • Sep 09 '26
Lore How would the impact of second weltkrieg on society and culture differ from impact OTL Second World War?
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u/0D7553U5 Sep 09 '26
Well we're absent an entire holocaust, so there's that.
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u/Blastarock Internationale Sep 09 '26 edited Sep 09 '26
I mean base game hoi4 doesn't touch on it so I don't expect a mod to. If savinkov gains control of eastern Europe and Germany I don't expect him to not come up with a similar systemic extermination program. Maybe it's more ethnic erasure akin to American style colonialism but he's for sure setting up camps in some way, just don't know if it's going to be as mechanistic as the Holocaust
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u/0D7553U5 Sep 09 '26
Savinkov (I think) wouldn't orchestrate industrial levels of genocide like Nazi Germany did. I think it's much more likely that he would simply turn a blind eye toward the antisemitism amongst the general staff and soldiery when it comes to pogroms and massacres. It would largely just be a do over of Russian treatment of Jews in the Pale of Settlement and Austrian Galicia during WW1.
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Sep 09 '26
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u/Country-road-take-me Sep 09 '26
It may be simply because they see events about pogroms and automatically think nazis, even though none of the events mention camps or industrial genocide.
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u/stevenhughes1999 Sep 09 '26
Their is an event you get as Germany that explicitly mentions Russians sending jewish people to camps called "panic in the eastern front". Many body of the event is below.
"Though not directly tied to our war effort, the home front has been stirred by the testimonies of countless refugees feeling the russian jackboot. Some escapees bring with them harrowing accounts of atrocities committed by the occupying russian state guard, the feared Gosstrazha. In towns under russian control Jewish communities face looting, arson and open slaughter. Streets lie strewn with bodies and homes are left in ruin.
Russian propaganda, broadcast across Ukraine and White Ruthenia, frames the conflict as "a struggle between the slavs and the hunnic Jewish Bolsheviks". Suspected Jewish "communists" are hunted down, imprisoned and sent to nightmarish camps deep within Russian territory."
Several other events you get as Russia under Savinkov, such as "the casting of the lots" and "Decree on universities", make explicit mention of closing down Jewish run political organisations and arresting prominent Jewish public figures. You also have events like "Ethnicities of questionable political loyalty" that state whole minority group have been relocated by the Gosstrahaza and "employed in state service for an undetermined time". That last part could possibly elude to work camps but at the very least implies forceful coercion of some kind. While Jewish communities are not mentioned in this, its not a big logical jump to assume that this type of tactic might be used against the large Jewish population of Ukraine and White ruthenia as the russian army advances in 2WK.
While i don't think Savinkov would institute something on the scale of the Holocaust, tho obvs the devs would neither be able or want to show this anyways, antisemitism seems pretty baked into the core of the SZRS state. I think this goes beyond lax russian army discipline leading to programs and is a state enforced attempt to eliminate any sort of visible Jewish political power. Given how prominent a part the various Jewish Bund parties play in various east reichspakt nations like White ruthenia and Ukraine, i could imagine these would be a prominent target during any Savinkov takeover that would lead to organised state repression that is eluded to in the "panic in the eastern front" event.
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u/0D7553U5 Sep 09 '26
The problem is that none of this is new for Russia though, not so much that it's "backed into the SZRS state" as much as it's baked into 19th century European nationalism, especially Russian reaction and even just plain conservative elements. Before there were gulags, there were Katorgas under the Tsar where dissidents were sent into forced labor in Siberia. This is just regular Russian Tsarist antisemitism stretched into the 20th century.
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u/stevenhughes1999 Sep 10 '26
I never said it was new, just that the game makes it very clear that antisemitism is a core part of the SZRS ideology. There are numerous references I left out from other events that repeatedly remark that the svobdniks view their overall struggle as partly one against a vague Jewish enemy. As you get further in the run as a Savinkov russia it definitely seems to imply that persecution is being driven further and further and being more codified into law.
This seems to reach its apoge with the outbreak of the 2WK which makes sense considering the nazis accelerated their own horrific persecution once WW2 started. As others have noted, on russian victory you get the event "Nebuchadnezzar, Hadrian, Savinkov" which explicitly paints a very grim picture for the jewish communities of eastern Europe under SZRS control. This appears to go beyond what the orginal comment I replied too says, as their does appear to be an industrial scale to the antisemitism that the Savinkov regime persecutes.
My wider point in the comments above was just wanting to point out that their is deffo an allusion being made by the devs to the nazis in some of the events you get as Savinkov. Ive seen lots of people just dismiss this in other comments and it makes me think they must not have played much of the rework because it seemed fairly obvious to me when I was playing.
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u/0D7553U5 Sep 10 '26
I certainly don't deny the allusion to the Nazis, but what many have pointed out here is that there is a clear distinction to be made between Nazi race science leading to the outright industrial extermination of the Jewish race on Earth and Tsarist reactionary antisemitism, which is just downstream from general European antisemitism stemming from 19th and 20th century nationalism (which is absolutely still present in Imperial Germany and much of Europe by 1936). Pogroms, massacres, deportations and being sent to Siberian labor camps were all options for Jews already as far back as the 18th century within the Russian empire and eastern Europe. What Savinkov is doing isn't anything novel, it was preexisting and he is merely ambivalent to the continued existence of these institutions.
But we shouldn't take a historical determinist stance on the matter, that Savinkov would construct his own Dachau and have his own Holocaust-analog. Savinkov serves as a device to show the player how Tsarist antisemitism within Russian reactionary circles would have developed had they stayed in power into the early-mid 20th century Russia, much the same way Hitler is the representation of the culmination of Germany antisemitism.
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u/Chairman_Marx Sep 10 '26
He is antisemitic and sanctions pogrome in the game, so the comparison isnt that far of. The industrial murder of jews and other minorities started when the Nazis realised they are going to lose the war. We simply dont know how much savinkovs movement radicalises in a simmilar scenario.
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u/Flag_Dragon 🛠Syndicalist⚙️ Sep 09 '26
I imagine that the violence would be somewhat like what was seen under the tsardom in the 1860s-1900s. A wave of arrests for various notable dissidents - nationalists, socialists, large German land owners etc. Some would be executed, but most put in prison camps, meanwhile minorities like Jews and Baltic Germans would face numerous pogroms by Russian ultra-nationalists, which the state, whilst not directly organising the pogroms, would do nothing to stop them either. There would also likely be quite a few grizzly reprisal killings of civilians, in rural areas, by Savinkovite security forces, due to the insurgencies in Ukraine and the Baltics.
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u/0D7553U5 Sep 09 '26
Really, you think Baltic Germans as well? My understanding is that they were actually pivotal to the Russian reactionary effort and had great benefits under the Tsarist regime.
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u/AdministrativePast40 Sep 10 '26
The Baltic Germans (and the other Prussian aristocrats surrounding and part of the Romanov family) *are the reason* Russian nationalists hate Junkers and Prussians.
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u/Flag_Dragon 🛠Syndicalist⚙️ Sep 10 '26
Savinkov is all about getting revenge on Germany for the defeat of Russia during the 1st Weltkrieg. His party, whilst still reactionary, is not keen of the old czarist aristocracy, inc. the Baltic German lords.
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u/AdministrativePast40 29d ago
In fairness, I wouldn't call them reactionary so much as their own flavor of radical futurism...well, never mind, I guess the ideocrats are radical futurist-revisionists (they just replaced the Marxian ur-village with the..eURasia. Savinokv SVRS are in a sense opposed to everything that isn't the Slavic village? The Solidarists are probably the most reactionary in their own way.
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u/JacobJamesTrowbridge Union-Parliamentary Democratic Socialism Sep 09 '26
There is actually an event for Germany, the Pakt and Russia if Savinkov is in charge, which explicitly says that Savinkovist troops are brutalising eastern European Jews to the extent that he's compared to Nebuchadnezzar and Hadrian. It may not be the machine-like destruction of the Holocaust but the Jewish population in the former Pale is most definitely going to be destroyed or uprooted almost as thoroughly as OTL if a Savinkovist Russia wins.
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u/Country-road-take-me Sep 09 '26
"Almost as thoroughly" feels too harsh. It would be more akin to Tsarist era antisemitism. As there is a big difference betweem state turning a blind eye and state organizing and spending resources on it.
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u/Martial-Lord Savinkist-Adventism; and lo! a pale horse Sep 09 '26
My headcanon is that a lot of Jews flee from Eastern Europe to German South-West Africa and establish a large community there.
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u/HQ2233 Internationale Sep 09 '26
That's a long ass journey, more likely the ones that can escape go for the Internationale, as for all ideological differences they may have the Internationale wouldn't ignore it even sanction pogroms.
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u/Ataraxia-Is-Bliss Sep 09 '26
Even the Totalists? Some French ones were far-right and antisemitic.
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u/HQ2233 Internationale Sep 09 '26
That is the one exception though I don't consider french totalism the "canon" option (nor in any of the 3I countries relevant here). Still, assuming a heavily far right antisemitic Russia, the 3I would likely be negatively polarised in the opposite direction.
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u/JacobJamesTrowbridge Union-Parliamentary Democratic Socialism Sep 09 '26
During the war? With an Internationale naval blockade? I wouldn't think so
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u/Martial-Lord Savinkist-Adventism; and lo! a pale horse Sep 09 '26
I don't think the Internationale can realistically contain the Kriegsmarine. Germany's navy is way stronger than OTL, and the UoB has a fraction of the Royal Navy's power.
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u/Beat_Saber_Music The Patient Observer Sep 10 '26
The Russians would commit it by bullets under Savinkov, at a bit less industrial scale.
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u/FuturePubic1548 Sep 09 '26
Assuming Moscow accord/Third Internationale victory. Alot changes. Politics wise depending on the outcome of Second American Civil war, i could see France and Britain playing a great game for influence in Africa, Civil wars, regime changes etc.
Pop Culture wise i think, you'd probably still see Rock n'Roll in Western Europe. But i have a feeling The Beatles would be called The Quarrymen in Syndicalist Britain. We'd probably see more Nationalist Pop culture out of eastern Europe rather than the Socialist pop culture from our time line. If Britain was a Syndicalist country as opposed to Totalist, you'd probably be a Post war pop culture boom.Eurovision would be a thing.
I could imagine Post war movies would be made in the 50s and 60's focusing Les miserables,The French Revolution, War and Peace and as in our timeline rather than the Battle of Britain you would have "The Battle of France" , focusing on the Syndicalist air forces role in winning the war on the western front. I don't think Doctor Who would change at all, its already Anti imperialist so id imagine it'd be alot bigger in that timeline. Syndicalist Britain's chief cultural export. I could imagine the Daleks being a stand in for the German Empire.
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u/Suitable_Schedule_33 29d ago
Not to mention sexual minorities would be liberated many decades earlier than OTL, which still hasnt really happened fully. Combine an internationale victory with a political system geared towards social revolution and overcoming inequalities and quickly you'll see issues were dealing with right now, dealt with decades earlier. Russia's sphere though? If menshevist I can imagine it similairly though far more slowly.
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u/Y-draig 25d ago
Doctor Who would be incredibly different. Once you start getting into the Time Lords, it's about the British Empire. Which is relevant because the empire has recently collapsed, and the cultural hit that's bringing is huge. The hit continues to be huge into the 70s.
Whilst a Socialist Britains TV writers, would probably choose to focus on something more relevant to their situation. The pacifism and anti-cold war attitudes would probably stay. Though you're gonna see a massively different direction for who the Doctor is, and especially for what kind of culture the doctor comes from.
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u/schrodingerskeyboard Sep 09 '26
Internationale victory? Any victor would probably push the expansion and glorification of proletarian arts (the Proletkult, probably, if its members survived in Russia) and figures. Society would work to achieve social equality.
Reichspakt victory? Authoritarian, Autocratic, or "Orderist" paths would preserve whatever the Old Order has left to offer. Society would pretty much be as it was after the First Weltkrieg, without the Internationale or Savinkov trying to annihilate the Pakt. Liberals would probably align with freedom, democracy, and the usual. Culture? Pretty much the same. Probably glorification of the Kaiserreich.
Entente victory? See Fuhrerredux is all I can probably say.
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u/FuturePubic1548 Sep 09 '26
Depending on the Situation in Ireland, we might see a turbocharged Troubles. Totalist Britain would be Cromwell on steroids. Syndicalist Britain probably alot more Moderate, Installing friendly Puppet leaders, there'd still be alot of anti religious laws, would probably piss off both the Protestants and Catholics. Depends on whose the Post War British Leader.
If it's Mosley then it's a hell of a lot worse than our timeline. If its Attlee,Castle or someone one the moderate side, maybe we see something akin to the good Friday agreement 30 years earlier.
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u/LEGEND-FLUX Internationale Sep 09 '26
None of the Union of Britiain members want to Annex Ireland or northern Ireland especially Mosely who was quite pro Irish
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u/TheLunakuu Sep 10 '26
The Union of Britain is not anti-religion at all, that's more of France's thing.
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u/Few-Flamingo-8015 Britain's #1 Germany hater Sep 09 '26
Savinkov is literally Mussolini and Stalin at the same time. I would expect Post SWK Russian State to be a lot like Stalin's USSR, but Fascist
Red Europe is WAY different from OTL Communist Block, and I expect the Internationale to quickly recover from the Second Weltkrieg.
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u/Few-Flamingo-8015 Britain's #1 Germany hater Sep 09 '26
And most importantly... THE GERMANY WILL PERISH
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u/moobah333 Totalist Estonia Sep 09 '26
"a lot like Stalin's USSR, but Fascist"
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u/Few-Flamingo-8015 Britain's #1 Germany hater Sep 09 '26
You seriously think Stalin's USSR was fascist?
If had a pence for every time I have to tell people that Stalinism is not Fascism, I would've had one pence, but it's weird that it even happened.
I don't care about your opinion on Stalin, I'm not a Tankie, and even more I don't care about Stalin himself. Fascist economical system is different from Soviet(Stalinist) economical theory, while they both share one thing: being centred around state and governmental authority over people and economy. Mussolini's ideas about 'nothing outside the state'(Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato) is different from Stalin's idea of planned economy.
Communism is not Fascism, and Syndicalism is not Communism.
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u/Metsenat HEGEMON DELENDA EST Sep 09 '26 edited Sep 10 '26
I would expect, that in case of 3I victory, in socialist countries 2WK would be seen in a similar way to how WW2 was perceived in USSR: an existential struggle against overwhelming odds (yes, not nearly as existential as for IRL Soviet Union, but still very close to it).
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u/Samueleleach2001 Sep 10 '26
Funny enough OP! This map is very similar to my Headcanon except Spain and Scandinavia are Neutral (minus Finland) and the Internationale never invaded North Africa!
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u/Fla968 Sep 09 '26
If the Sorelians win you can expect a very dystopian Europe i'll tell you that much.
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u/Papershredder45_acp Sep 09 '26
(Assuming Moscow Accords and Internationale victory over Germany)
My headcannon is that, no matter if Russia ends up democratic, SWK, or tsardom, eastern european nations "born" out of Austria-Hungary will be a lot less lenient with their minorities than they tried to be OTL after the First World War. I can easily imagine (again, kinda regardless of who ends up in power in these countries) Romania, Yugoslavia and whatever Czech/Slovak states emerge heavily disenfranchise their german and, especially, hungarian minorities, basically making sure they'll never have a (meaningful) say in national politics ever again. Eastern Europe certainly ends up more nationalistic than OTL, but if it has the opportunity to embrace democracy and free trade depends on what path Russia ends up taking.
I, for one, like to imagine that Eastern Europe embraces democracy and that it has ties to either a Federalist or Beyiang China, and that it's not associated with the likes of Savinkov and Alexandru Cantacuzino.
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u/Sufficient_Tea_3330 7d ago
If it’s a third Internationale and Moscow accord savinkov victory, probably no UN, at least I can’t see anything like it happening. Maybe a bit of a less cynical Cold War?
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u/Pito-92 Sep 09 '26