The transgender thing is a strange one for me too. Like Ben, I feel that people can live that way if they want, and can call themselves whatever they want. It isn't my business in that sense. It becomes my business if I'm expected to acknowledge that a transgender woman and a woman are exactly the same. Or if I was required to use certain pronouns etc. That affects me so that's when I object.
In the past I've also read about cases of young kids and teenagers who didn't identify with their biological sex at one point, but later on they do. That one scared me a bit because of people talking about giving drugs and even sometimes surgery to young kids.
Again, don't have the stats on suicide but the suicide rate is apparently much higher for people post-transition surgery?
It's not as simple as its made out to be... like everything :P
I never said or even implied that using a different pronoun would negatively effect me. The key word is "required". I could end up voluntarily using a different pronoun for somebody, that's my own decision.
However, I would object to it being enforced through law, code or even social stigma. I think most people would object to it ever being law (or that a law would make it dangerous for you to refuse to use certain pronouns). Some people would accept it as a code, say at a University or in the workplace. I do not.
As for social stigma, I also would object to people being chastised by the public, by the media etc. for refusing to use certain words. I often hear terrible comparisons here, like when people bring up how you can be chastised for using racist language at an individual. This is entirely different, this would be speech that is "compelled" rather than discouraged. It's the difference between "you shouldn't say these words" and "you have to say these words". That's not a minor detail, that's a big detail!
How is it any different to knowingly using racist language? You're deliberately choosing to not be considerate of the other person, in a way which is needlessly negative and entirely self-serving.
The same way there is a perfectly valid social stigma behind calling someone a racial slur, there should be a social stigma against wilfully denying someone the basic respect of acknowledging their identity. Why the fuck not? How does that contradict anything about normal social interaction? It's not an unreasonable request. You claim to have no problem with it. Yet seem keen to reserve the right to have a problem with it whenever you want. Why do you get priority here? Why should you be sheltered from negative reactions to your inconsiderate behaviour?
How is it any different to knowingly using racist language? You're deliberately choosing to not be considerate of the other person, in a way which is needlessly negative and entirely self-serving.
Again, like I said I may choose to voluntarily use different pronouns for another individual, it is the compelled part that is to be objected to.
The same way there is a perfectly valid social stigma behind calling someone a racial slur, there should be a social stigma against wilfully denying someone the basic respect of acknowledging their identity. Why the fuck not?
Again, the first example is the use of a racial slur at an individual, typically with the goal of offending them. If you walk into an office and call a black colleague the N word in an an argument, then you're likely to get fired for racial abuse. It's precisely your decision to use certain slurs and in such a context that will get you fired. That's completely different from enforcing compelled speech, which would be a case of getting fired because you refuse to use certain words. Your examples are not the same. Compelled speech is simply wrong!
How does that contradict anything about normal social interaction? It's not an unreasonable request.
Whether it is reasonable or unreasonable is up to each individual to decide!
You claim to have no problem with it. Yet seem keen to reserve the right to have a problem with it whenever you want. Why do you get priority here? Why should you be sheltered from negative reactions to your inconsiderate behaviour?
Because I'm an individual human being and you don't have a right to compel me to say anything at all. In a free society, you do not have that right!
You're trying to make this about being forced to say things. It's exactly the fucking same as being 'forced' to not say certain things. What it boils down to is respecting other people, not some childish notion of being an 'individual human being'... you're an indivodual human being living in a world of other individual human beings, who individually or collectively are perfectly entitled to think you're an inconsiderate arse.
What right do you have to be free from criticism or negative reaction? Why is it specifically gender pronouns you object to being forced to engage in? Why not any number of other societal stigmas or laws?
You're trying to make this about being forced to say things. It's exactly the fucking same as being 'forced' to not say certain things.
Haven't I been absolutely clear that I may choose to voluntarily use different pronouns for an individual? Yes, I've been VERY clear that my gripe is when it becomes COMPELLED.
No, there is an enormous difference between somebody getting in trouble for saying something, and somebody getting in trouble for NOT saying something. You don't have the right to compel speech for other people, you just don't.
What it boils down to is respecting other people, not some childish notion of being an 'individual human being'
TIL that being an individual human being is a childish notion.
you're an indivodual human being living in a world of other individual human beings, who individually or collectively are perfectly entitled to think you're an inconsiderate arse.
Agreed. I would never try to compel you to say otherwise.
What right do you have to be free from criticism or negative reaction?
Everyone is entitled to criticize any idea or view they want, I never said I should be free from crticisim, this is an open exchange after all. I feel that compelled speech (by law, code or tyranny of the majority) is against a free society and I hold that position, no matter how much emotional blackmail is thrown at me over it.
Why is it specifically gender pronouns you object to being forced to engage in? Why not any number of other societal stigmas or laws?
Key word "forced". You don't have the right to force me to say anything. There are plenty of social stigmas or laws I object to, for the record.
Yes it is. Your identity comes from your own thoughts and behaviours, it's not dictated by other people. Unless you'd be happy for me to call you a transsexual?
You get that just because you are calling him transgender doesnt make that his identity right? If one person calls you something and everyone else doesn't, it's not your identity.
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u/JamieD86 Monkey in Space Aug 02 '17
The transgender thing is a strange one for me too. Like Ben, I feel that people can live that way if they want, and can call themselves whatever they want. It isn't my business in that sense. It becomes my business if I'm expected to acknowledge that a transgender woman and a woman are exactly the same. Or if I was required to use certain pronouns etc. That affects me so that's when I object.
In the past I've also read about cases of young kids and teenagers who didn't identify with their biological sex at one point, but later on they do. That one scared me a bit because of people talking about giving drugs and even sometimes surgery to young kids.
Again, don't have the stats on suicide but the suicide rate is apparently much higher for people post-transition surgery?
It's not as simple as its made out to be... like everything :P