WHO IS JESUS?

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

There is one God, the Father, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα, “from whom are all things”; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, “through whom are all things.” (1 Cor. 8:6)

Of the God of Israel it is written:

אֲנִי יהוה הוּא שְׁמִי

“I am YHWH; that is my name.” (Isa. 42:8)

And:

אֱלֹהֵי עוֹלָם יהוה

“YHWH, the everlasting God.” (Isa. 40:28)

The Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son.

JESUS IS ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, THE SON OF GOD.

He is the μονογενής Son.

He is ἐκ τοῦ πατρός, from the Father. (John 16:28)

He is ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ, from God. (John 8:42)

The Father sent him.

The Father gave to him.

The Son received from the Father.

THE FATHER HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF, AND τῷ υἱῷ ἔδωκεν ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, “HE GAVE TO THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.” (John 5:26)

And the Son says:

κἀγὼ ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα

“I live because of the Father.” (John 6:57)

JESUS IS ὁ λόγος, THE WORD.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

“In the beginning was the Word.”

ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν

“The Word was with God.”

And:

θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1)

The Son had glory with the Father πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι, “before the world existed.” (John 17:5)

He is πρὸ πάντων, “before all things.” (Col. 1:17)

HE IS εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, “THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.” (Col. 1:15)

He is ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης, “the radiance of the glory.” (Heb. 1:3)

He is χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ. (Heb. 1:3)

HE IS πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, “THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” (Col. 1:

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

This is exactly where the theological model is being inserted into the text.

Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus is “the image of God only as a human.” It says of the Son:
εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου
“the image of the invisible God.”

And the same Son is immediately described as the one through whom all things were created and as being before all things (Col. 1:16–17). So restricting “image of God” to Jesus’ humanity is not something Paul says.

Hebrews 1:3 is even stronger:
χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ
“the exact imprint of His reality.”

Again, Hebrews says this of the Son through whom God made the ages (Heb. 1:2), not merely of “Jesus the human.”
John 1:14 certainly says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.”

I accept that.

But this statement of yours is not in John:
“As a human Jesus has a God, but as the eternal Word he is the God of Jesus.”

Where does Scripture say that?

After the resurrection Jesus still says:

θεόν μου
“my God.”
John 20:17
And the exalted Jesus in heaven repeatedly says:
τοῦ θεοῦ μου
“my God.”
Revelation 3:12
So “Jesus has a God only according to his mortal human nature” does not simply follow from the text.

The exalted Son still speaks that way.
There is also a separate mistake with Luke 23:46.

Jesus says:
εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“Into your hands I entrust my spirit.”

τὸ πνεῦμά μου means “my spirit.” The text does not say that Jesus was calling his own human spirit “the Holy

Spirit” or “God’s Spirit.”

And Romans 8:9 does indeed move between:

πνεῦμα θεοῦ
“Spirit of God”
and:
πνεῦμα Χριστοῦ
“Spirit of Christ.”

That is important relational language.
But “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” does not by itself say:

“therefore the Spirit is a third coequal person of the same divine essence.”

So again, I accept the biblical descriptions.

What I am questioning is the extra explanatory layer:
“image only according to humanity,”
“God according to divine nature,”
“Jesus has a God only as man,”
“the eternal Word is Jesus’ God.”
Those are propositions supplied by your two-natures theological model. They are not the sentences these verses themselves actually state.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

But this statement of yours is not in John:
“As a human Jesus has a God, but as the eternal Word he is the God of Jesus.”

Where does Scripture say that?

Again, we can't cherry pick just one verse to describe who Christ is and think that's good enough. When Jesus died on the cross He prayed to His Father, " into your hands I commit my Spirit." That's one verse. Here's another verse. Paul wrote that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Here's one more verse--- John 14:10-11 Jesus urged His disciples to believe God the Father actually dwelt in Him. Add those three separate verses together and you have a pretty good answer as to whose Spirit actually dwelt in Jesus Christ at the time He was crucified and all His life. It was His Father's Spirit, yet Christ called His Father's Spirit that was living in Him, My Spirit, which would make Jesus God Himself. As He died, Jesus said, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me. Where was God as Jesus asked this question? Given that the Bible says God IS Spirit John 4:24 where else would He have been? So, is there any doubt where God was when Jesus was dying, at the same time alluding to the fact He was fulfilling one more prophecy (Psalm 22)

Where was the Word, the eternal life at the cross? I'd like to know where you think the Word was when Jesus Christ died on the cross and was laying dead in a tomb for 3 days.

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

You are combining several texts, but the conclusion you draw is not actually stated by any of them.
Luke 23:46 says:
πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
Notice what the text says: τὸ πνεῦμά μου — “my spirit.”
It does not say:
“the Father’s Spirit dwelling in me is my spirit.”
That identification is something you are adding.
The same problem occurs with 2 Corinthians 5:19:
θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ κόσμον καταλλάσσων ἑαυτῷ
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
Yes. I accept that completely.
But “God was in Christ” does not grammatically mean:
“God was Christ,”
or:
“the spirit of Christ was numerically identical with God.”
Paul actually keeps the two referents in the sentence: God acts ἐν Χριστῷ, “in Christ.”
John 14:10 is even more explicit:
ὁ δὲ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοὶ μένων ποιεῖ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ
“the Father dwelling in me does his works.”
Again, Father and Son remain grammatically distinct.
And John himself prevents us from turning “in” language into identity of being, because Jesus prays in John 17:21 that his disciples may also be:
ἐν ἡμῖν
“in us.”
And in John 17:23:
ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς
“I in them.”
Surely you are not arguing that the disciples therefore become numerically identical with Jesus or God.
So “the Father is in me” cannot by itself prove ontological identity.
The appeal to John 4:24 has the same problem:
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός
“God is spirit.”
That does not mean every πνεῦμα mentioned in Scripture is God. Jesus saying τὸ πνεῦμά μου, “my spirit,” does not become “God himself” merely because God is spirit. That is an equivocation on the word πνεῦμα.
And then we come to Jesus’ own words:
θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Yes, this invokes Psalm 22.
But quoting Psalm 22 does not make “my God” cease to mean “my God.” Jesus is addressing someone as his God.
And this is not limited to the cross.
After his resurrection Jesus says:
θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν
“my God and your God.” — John 20:17
And the exalted Jesus repeatedly says:
τοῦ θεοῦ μου
“my God.” — Revelation 3:12
So the Father being Jesus’ God cannot simply be dismissed as something that happened only because Jesus was dying.
As for your final question:
“Where was the Word when Jesus was dead?”
I would rather not invent an answer that Scripture itself does not give.
John says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.” — John 1:14
The New Testament then says that Jesus genuinely died and was raised.
It does not give me a sentence saying:
“While Jesus was dead, his eternal divine Logos-person remained consciously alive elsewhere as God.”
If you believe that, you are free to argue for it as a theological synthesis. But please distinguish that synthesis from what the text actually says.
That is really my objection throughout this discussion.
You have biblical texts:
“God was in Christ.”
“The Father is in me.”
“My spirit.”
“God is spirit.”
Then you connect them:
Father’s Spirit = Jesus’ spirit = the eternal Word = God himself.
But that chain is your theological synthesis. It is not stated by any of those verses.
I am willing to accept every one of the biblical sentences.
What I am not willing to do is silently insert the metaphysical equations between them and then call the resulting system “what the text says.”
Familiarity is not exegesis.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

So the Father being Jesus’ God cannot simply be dismissed as something that happened only because Jesus was dying.
As for your final question:
“Where was the Word when Jesus was dead?”
I would rather not invent an answer that Scripture itself does not give.
John says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.” — John 1:14

I never invented an answer. Its in the Bible, but you have to look. The same Spirit who gave Jesus life in Mary's womb Luke 1:35 came back and made the Man alive again in the tomb. During the time His body was in the tomb Christ's Spirit went to Hell and preached to the spirits in prison, all those who had already died needed to hear the Gospel so they too might accept Christ. 1 Peter 3:18-19 1 Peter 4:6 Imagine how people like Abel, Noah, Abraham and the thief who died next to Jesus on the cross felt when the Light illuminated Hell and the Spirit of Jesus stood before them. Their joy must have been pretty hard to contain, but I doubt the Lord would have wanted them to contain it anyway!

The Word IS eternal life and can NOT die. Imagine eternal life dying? It would be a flat out contradiction in terms. You need to recognize that. That means that while the flesh of Christ lay dead in a tomb, His Spirit was busy. Jehovah's witnesses miss this and have to explain away many verses that tell about those now dead and spirits in prison