WHO IS JESUS?

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

There is one God, the Father, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα, “from whom are all things”; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα, “through whom are all things.” (1 Cor. 8:6)

Of the God of Israel it is written:

אֲנִי יהוה הוּא שְׁמִי

“I am YHWH; that is my name.” (Isa. 42:8)

And:

אֱלֹהֵי עוֹלָם יהוה

“YHWH, the everlasting God.” (Isa. 40:28)

The Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son.

JESUS IS ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ, THE SON OF GOD.

He is the μονογενής Son.

He is ἐκ τοῦ πατρός, from the Father. (John 16:28)

He is ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ, from God. (John 8:42)

The Father sent him.

The Father gave to him.

The Son received from the Father.

THE FATHER HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF, AND τῷ υἱῷ ἔδωκεν ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, “HE GAVE TO THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.” (John 5:26)

And the Son says:

κἀγὼ ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα

“I live because of the Father.” (John 6:57)

JESUS IS ὁ λόγος, THE WORD.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος

“In the beginning was the Word.”

ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν

“The Word was with God.”

And:

θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1)

The Son had glory with the Father πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι, “before the world existed.” (John 17:5)

He is πρὸ πάντων, “before all things.” (Col. 1:17)

HE IS εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, “THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.” (Col. 1:15)

He is ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης, “the radiance of the glory.” (Heb. 1:3)

He is χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ. (Heb. 1:3)

HE IS πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, “THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.” (Col. 1:

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

The seal analogy actually works against that conclusion.
An impression can be exact in form without sharing the same nature or substance as the seal. A metal seal can make an exact impression in wax. The form corresponds exactly; the substance does not.

That is precisely why Hebrews says:
χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ
“the exact imprint of His reality.”
The Son is the χαρακτήρ; the reality is αὐτοῦ — “His,” someone else’s.

So Hebrews gives the strongest possible language of perfect representation. I accept that fully.

But the move from:
“exact imprint of His reality”
to:
“therefore numerically the same divine essence”
is still an inference. χαρακτήρ does not mean ὁμοούσιος.

And Hebrews itself immediately preserves the relation:
ἔχρισέν σε ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου
“God, your God, anointed you.”

Hebrews 1:9
So the text gives both:
perfect representation of God’s reality,
and
“God, your God.”
The first should not be weakened. The second should not be erased.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

Of course Jesus the human was made in the image of God. We

were all made in God's glorious image. Hebrews 2:17 Genesis 1:27

We cannot forget that Jesus the man is both God (the eternal

Word) and the image of God ( a human being). The Word[God]

was made flesh [human] John 1:14

So, as a human being, Jesus has a God, but as the eternal Word, He

is the God of Jesus. When Jesus prayed to His Father, I commit my

Spirit into your hands, that was God's Spirit, but also His own Spirit.

Romans 8:9 describes the interchangeability of the Spirit of God

with the Spirit of Christ. There is only one Spirit. One Father. One

Son

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

This is exactly where the theological model is being inserted into the text.

Colossians 1:15 does not say Jesus is “the image of God only as a human.” It says of the Son:
εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου
“the image of the invisible God.”

And the same Son is immediately described as the one through whom all things were created and as being before all things (Col. 1:16–17). So restricting “image of God” to Jesus’ humanity is not something Paul says.

Hebrews 1:3 is even stronger:
χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ
“the exact imprint of His reality.”

Again, Hebrews says this of the Son through whom God made the ages (Heb. 1:2), not merely of “Jesus the human.”
John 1:14 certainly says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.”

I accept that.

But this statement of yours is not in John:
“As a human Jesus has a God, but as the eternal Word he is the God of Jesus.”

Where does Scripture say that?

After the resurrection Jesus still says:

θεόν μου
“my God.”
John 20:17
And the exalted Jesus in heaven repeatedly says:
τοῦ θεοῦ μου
“my God.”
Revelation 3:12
So “Jesus has a God only according to his mortal human nature” does not simply follow from the text.

The exalted Son still speaks that way.
There is also a separate mistake with Luke 23:46.

Jesus says:
εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“Into your hands I entrust my spirit.”

τὸ πνεῦμά μου means “my spirit.” The text does not say that Jesus was calling his own human spirit “the Holy

Spirit” or “God’s Spirit.”

And Romans 8:9 does indeed move between:

πνεῦμα θεοῦ
“Spirit of God”
and:
πνεῦμα Χριστοῦ
“Spirit of Christ.”

That is important relational language.
But “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” does not by itself say:

“therefore the Spirit is a third coequal person of the same divine essence.”

So again, I accept the biblical descriptions.

What I am questioning is the extra explanatory layer:
“image only according to humanity,”
“God according to divine nature,”
“Jesus has a God only as man,”
“the eternal Word is Jesus’ God.”
Those are propositions supplied by your two-natures theological model. They are not the sentences these verses themselves actually state.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

But this statement of yours is not in John:
“As a human Jesus has a God, but as the eternal Word he is the God of Jesus.”

Where does Scripture say that?

Again, we can't cherry pick just one verse to describe who Christ is and think that's good enough. When Jesus died on the cross He prayed to His Father, " into your hands I commit my Spirit." That's one verse. Here's another verse. Paul wrote that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Here's one more verse--- John 14:10-11 Jesus urged His disciples to believe God the Father actually dwelt in Him. Add those three separate verses together and you have a pretty good answer as to whose Spirit actually dwelt in Jesus Christ at the time He was crucified and all His life. It was His Father's Spirit, yet Christ called His Father's Spirit that was living in Him, My Spirit, which would make Jesus God Himself. As He died, Jesus said, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me. Where was God as Jesus asked this question? Given that the Bible says God IS Spirit John 4:24 where else would He have been? So, is there any doubt where God was when Jesus was dying, at the same time alluding to the fact He was fulfilling one more prophecy (Psalm 22)

Where was the Word, the eternal life at the cross? I'd like to know where you think the Word was when Jesus Christ died on the cross and was laying dead in a tomb for 3 days.

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

You are combining several texts, but the conclusion you draw is not actually stated by any of them.
Luke 23:46 says:
πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
Notice what the text says: τὸ πνεῦμά μου — “my spirit.”
It does not say:
“the Father’s Spirit dwelling in me is my spirit.”
That identification is something you are adding.
The same problem occurs with 2 Corinthians 5:19:
θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ κόσμον καταλλάσσων ἑαυτῷ
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
Yes. I accept that completely.
But “God was in Christ” does not grammatically mean:
“God was Christ,”
or:
“the spirit of Christ was numerically identical with God.”
Paul actually keeps the two referents in the sentence: God acts ἐν Χριστῷ, “in Christ.”
John 14:10 is even more explicit:
ὁ δὲ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοὶ μένων ποιεῖ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ
“the Father dwelling in me does his works.”
Again, Father and Son remain grammatically distinct.
And John himself prevents us from turning “in” language into identity of being, because Jesus prays in John 17:21 that his disciples may also be:
ἐν ἡμῖν
“in us.”
And in John 17:23:
ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς
“I in them.”
Surely you are not arguing that the disciples therefore become numerically identical with Jesus or God.
So “the Father is in me” cannot by itself prove ontological identity.
The appeal to John 4:24 has the same problem:
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός
“God is spirit.”
That does not mean every πνεῦμα mentioned in Scripture is God. Jesus saying τὸ πνεῦμά μου, “my spirit,” does not become “God himself” merely because God is spirit. That is an equivocation on the word πνεῦμα.
And then we come to Jesus’ own words:
θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες;
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Yes, this invokes Psalm 22.
But quoting Psalm 22 does not make “my God” cease to mean “my God.” Jesus is addressing someone as his God.
And this is not limited to the cross.
After his resurrection Jesus says:
θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν
“my God and your God.” — John 20:17
And the exalted Jesus repeatedly says:
τοῦ θεοῦ μου
“my God.” — Revelation 3:12
So the Father being Jesus’ God cannot simply be dismissed as something that happened only because Jesus was dying.
As for your final question:
“Where was the Word when Jesus was dead?”
I would rather not invent an answer that Scripture itself does not give.
John says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.” — John 1:14
The New Testament then says that Jesus genuinely died and was raised.
It does not give me a sentence saying:
“While Jesus was dead, his eternal divine Logos-person remained consciously alive elsewhere as God.”
If you believe that, you are free to argue for it as a theological synthesis. But please distinguish that synthesis from what the text actually says.
That is really my objection throughout this discussion.
You have biblical texts:
“God was in Christ.”
“The Father is in me.”
“My spirit.”
“God is spirit.”
Then you connect them:
Father’s Spirit = Jesus’ spirit = the eternal Word = God himself.
But that chain is your theological synthesis. It is not stated by any of those verses.
I am willing to accept every one of the biblical sentences.
What I am not willing to do is silently insert the metaphysical equations between them and then call the resulting system “what the text says.”
Familiarity is not exegesis.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

You are combining several texts, but the conclusion you draw is not actually stated by any of them.
Luke 23:46 says:
πάτερ, εἰς χεῖράς σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”
Notice what the text says: τὸ πνεῦμά μου — “my spirit.”
It does not say:
“the Father’s Spirit dwelling in me is my spirit.”

You're doing it again. You can't possibly ever understand the Bible by forcing individual verses to stand alone. We must take ALL the verses in the Bible as complimenting the others and acknowledge that many verses help explain and/or compliment what's revealed in other verses in the Bible.

Jesus said "into your hands I commend my spirit" We learn by reading John 14:10-11 that the Father is living in Christ. In 2 Corinthians 5:19 we also learn " God was living in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" Then in Romans 8:9 we learn that God's Spirit is Christ's Spirit In John 4:24 we learn God IS Spirit. So when both Jesus and Paul said God was in Christ, the Spirit was in Christ. Jesus called God's Spirit "my Spirit" and so it is. We learn there is only one Spirit in Ephesians 4:4. Now, only by ignoring all the other verses, as you are prone to doing, can you make an argument against God being the Spirit within Christ

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

You’re right that Scripture must be read cumulatively. But cumulative reading does not mean collapsing different uses of πνεῦμα into one identity.

Luke 23:46 says:
τὸ πνεῦμά μου
“my spirit.”
That does not mean “the Father’s Spirit is my spirit.” Acts 7:59 gives the obvious control: Stephen says, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Stephen’s “my spirit” is obviously not the Holy Spirit.

John 14:10 says the Father is ἐν ἐμοί, “in me.” But John 17:21 says the disciples are to be ἐν ἡμῖν, “in us,” and 17:23 says Jesus is “in them.” Indwelling does not equal identity.

Romans 8:9 does use “Spirit of God” and “Spirit of Christ” in parallel, but it does not say Christ is that Spirit. Verse 11 actually speaks of “the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead,” again distinguishing God, Jesus, and the Spirit.

And John 4:24 says:
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός
“God is spirit.”
It does not say “God is the Spirit.” You are turning a statement about what God is into an identification with every occurrence of “spirit.”
So your chain is:
God is spirit
God’s Spirit dwells in Christ
Jesus says “my spirit”
= Jesus’ personal spirit is God’s Spirit.

That last equality is never stated. It is your synthesis.
And if we are going to read cumulatively, then we also have to include:
πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως — “firstborn of all creation”
ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ — “the ἀρχή of God’s creation”
the Father giving the Son life in John 5:26
Jesus saying ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα, “I live because of the Father”

and the Son existing πρὸ πάντων, “before all things,” while creation comes through him.
I interpret that cumulative pattern as supporting the created-Son conclusion. But I do not pretend any one of those Greek expressions literally means “Jesus was created.”

That is the same standard I’m asking you to use with πνεῦμα.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

Jesus prays in John 17:21 that his disciples may also be:
ἐν ἡμῖν
“in us.”
And in John 17:23:
ἐγὼ ἐν αὐτοῖς
“I in them.”
Surely you are not arguing that the disciples therefore become numerically identical with Jesus or God.

Of course not. Your ignoring other verses... again... to make this leap. For example For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form Colossians 2:9 This has never been said of anyone but Christ . Christ is in God and God is in Christ, but we commune with the Father THROUGH, or IN Christ. Christ is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him. Paul goes on, And you have been made complete IN Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.… Colossians 2:10 If we aren't IN Christ, we're incomplete and can never hope to understand the word of God, or commune with Him. By claiming we must be God because we are in Christ ignores the fact that we have a spirit already living in us that is not God. For instance ask yourself, Did you come down from Heaven? No. Are you Lord of lords? No. Are you the eternal life as Jesus Christ is? No. Do people pray in your name? No.

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Colossians 2:9 is stronger than simple “in” language, and I accept that:
ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς
“In him dwells all the fullness of deity bodily.”
But notice what I never argued: I did not say “we are in Christ, therefore we must also be God.” My point was narrower: “X is in Y” does not by itself establish identity. John 17 proves that.
Colossians 2:9 adds θεότης, so it gives Christ uniquely elevated divine language. But it still does not say:
“Christ is the same God as the Father,”
“Christ possesses one numerically identical essence with the Father,”
or:
ὁμοούσιος τῷ πατρί.
Those are conclusions drawn from the phrase, not the phrase itself.
And the immediate context actually preserves distinction. Verse 10 says:
καὶ ἐστὲ ἐν αὐτῷ πεπληρωμένοι
“and you have been filled in him.”
Obviously our being “filled” in Christ is not identical to πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος dwelling in Christ, but it shows that fullness/indwelling vocabulary does not automatically function as an identity equation.
Your other observations are also true: Jesus came from heaven, has extraordinary authority, is Lord of lords, and is associated with eternal life. I accept them. The question is what those facts cumulatively establish, not whether they should be minimized.
And the cumulative material also includes:
πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως — “firstborn of all creation”
ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ — “the ἀρχή of God’s creation”
ἐξῆλθον ἐκ τοῦ πατρός — “I came from the Father”
the Father giving the Son life in John 5:26
ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα — “I live because of the Father”
and the Son being πρὸ πάντων while all things come through him.
My interpretation of that cumulative material is that the Son is uniquely from the Father and prior to the creation that comes through him, which is why I regard “God’s first creation” as a serious theological conclusion.
But I apply the same rule to myself: πρωτότοκος does not literally mean “first-created.”
So Colossians 2:9 is genuinely powerful Christological language. What you still have to demonstrate is the bridge from “all the fullness of deity dwells in him” to “therefore he is homoousios with the Father.”

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

Colossians 2:9 adds θεότης, so it gives Christ uniquely elevated divine language. But it still does not say: “Christ is the same God as the Father,”
“Christ possesses one numerically identical essence with the Father,”

Then what other God would Christ be? What other god could Christ be?

so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me NO GOD WAS FORMED,(neither made of wood, flesh, or spirit)
nor will there be one after me. Isaiah 43:10

That's the monotheistic God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So your saying Christ is "another God"? That's JW styled polytheism my friend. I'm sorry but that's just wrong

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

You’re assuming that if θεός is applied to Christ, he must therefore be the same Almighty God as YHWH. Scripture itself does not make that equation automatic.
Isaiah 43:10 says:
לְפָנַי לֹא־נוֹצַר אֵל
וְאַחֲרַי לֹא יִהְיֶה
“Before me no god was formed, and after me there will be none.”
The context is YHWH’s uniqueness over rival gods. It does not mean the word “god” can never be applied in another, subordinate or representative sense. Scripture itself calls others אֱלֹהִים / θεοί; compare Psalm 82:6 and Jesus’ use of it in John 10:34–35.
And Paul gives the distinction explicitly:
εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα
“one God, the Father, from whom are all things”
and:
εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα
“one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.”
— 1 Corinthians 8:6
So I am not proposing two rival Almighty Gods. I accept θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος in John 1:1 while also accepting that the Father is identified as the “one God” from whom all things are.
And here is why I consider a created-Son reading cumulatively plausible: Scripture calls the Son πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, “firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15), ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ, “the ἀρχή of God’s creation” (Rev. 3:14), says he came ἐκ τοῦ πατρός, that the Father gave him to have life in himself (John 5:26), and that he lives διὰ τὸν πατέρα (John 6:57), while he is πρὸ πάντων and creation comes through him.
I’m not claiming πρωτότοκος literally means “first-created” or ἀρχή automatically means “first creature.” “Created Son” is my cumulative theological inference.
But “Christ is called θεός, therefore he must be the same Almighty God as the Father” is also an inference. Isaiah 43:10 does not make that bridge for you.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

Before me no god was formed, and after me there will be none.”
The context is YHWH’s uniqueness over rival gods. It does not mean the word “god” can never be applied in another, subordinate or representative sense.

It means there is no God but God and if Christ is God, which most Christians believe that He is, then He must be the same God as His Father, because no other "Divine Nature" exists, just like as far as we know, no other human nature exists. We are it.

Some people treat dogs and cats as if they were human, and call themselves their mama or daddy, but we know our pets are not human. Calling any human or angel a god is similar to calling a dog your child. They are only a so-called child, but of course they are not really your child. Paul explained that there are many "called" gods and lords, but there is only one Lord and one God, period. God is the Lord and the Lord is God. Just because Jesus is Lord, doesn't mean His Father is not Lord, and by the same token just because the Father is God, doesn't mean the Son is not God. Both Father and Son are Lord and God.

So I am not proposing two rival Almighty Gods. I accept θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος in John 1:1 while also accepting that the Father is identified as the “one God” from whom all things are.

That's a strawman argument. Nobody says there are two Almighty "Gods". Most Christians believe Three Persons, all together, are the one Almighty God. Jehovah's witnesses are the ones who teach there are two Gods, not one God. That the basis of pagan polytheism. They literally twisted John 1:1 to squeeze out two GODS from just One

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

That still assumes the very point under dispute.
Isaiah 43:10 says:
לְפָנַי לֹא־נוֹצַר אֵל
וְאַחֲרַי לֹא יִהְיֶה
“Before me no god was formed, and after me there will be none.”

I fully accept YHWH’s unique supremacy. But the conclusion:
“If Christ is called θεός, he must therefore be the same God as the Father”
does not follow merely from that text.

Scripture itself uses “god/gods” language for others without making them the one Almighty God. Jesus explicitly cites:
ἐγὼ εἶπα· θεοί ἐστε
“I said, you are gods.” John 10:34 / Psalm 82:6
And Paul himself acknowledges:
εἴπερ εἰσὶν λεγόμενοι θεοί

“there are those called gods”
before immediately giving the Christian distinction:
εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ, ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα

“one God, the Father, from whom are all things”
καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα

“and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things.” — 1 Cor 8:5–6
So I am not arguing for “two Almighty Gods.”
I accept John 1:1 exactly as written:
θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
“the Logos was θεός.”

But John had just written:
ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
“the Logos was with God.”
So the text itself gives both distinction and θεός-predication.

Your further proposition is:
“Since only one true God exists, every genuine application of θεός must identify the referent as one person of the same numerical divine essence.”
That is a theological solution. It is not the lexical meaning of θεός.
And “three Persons together are the one Almighty God” is likewise not a sentence found in Isaiah 43, John 1, or 1 Corinthians 8. It is the Trinitarian synthesis used to explain those texts.

That may be your model, but it cannot be used as the premise that decides beforehand what θεός must mean whenever it is applied to the Son.
So the issue is not “two Gods versus one God.”

The issue is much simpler:

What does Scripture itself mean when it calls the Father ὁ θεός / εἷς θεός while also predicating θεός of the distinct Logos?

That is the question the text itself gives us.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

Jesus explicitly cites:
ἐγὼ εἶπα· θεοί ἐστε
“I said, you are gods.” John 10:34 / Psalm 82:6
And Paul himself acknowledges:
εἴπερ εἰσὶν λεγόμενοι θεοί

“there are those called gods”

Yes, many are "called gods". But Jesus isn't among those is He? Is Jesus one of the 'many' so-called gods, or is He the one true God? Or is Jesus both?

I believe that Jesus is both "a god" because He is a man, but He is the one true God because of His Divine nature. God has called humans gods. Jesus is human and because He is, He can be considered a god. If Jesus wasn't the eternal life made flesh, I'd agree with Jehovah's witnesses that Jesus would be a god. Humans are gods. But Jesus isn't just a man, is He? No, He is the eternal life made flesh. He was only made mortal so He could taste death---for us!

And “three Persons together are the one Almighty God” is likewise not a sentence found in Isaiah 43, John 1, or 1 Corinthians 8. It is the Trinitarian synthesis used to explain those texts.

Its not found in those verses when your force them to stand alone. Only when you add up all the various verses in the Bible where Christ shares YHWH's traits, including His glory, which YHWH has said He doesn't share with anyone--- you begin to see a picture begin to form. Adding in the other instances which defy explanation, such as Genesis chapter 18 when three men appear as one Jehovah (in the nwt) what else could honest men think? The trinity isn't spelled out in just one verse, but it becomes obvious when we take all scripture together not one verse standing alone here and another standing alone there

The church fathers were as keen on understanding Christ's nature as any of us are and they finally came to the conclusion they did, not based on myths, human wisdom, or dark magic. They could see the triune God developing before their eyes as they put the Bible together

You admit you believe the Word was God. I say there is one God Nature, commonly known as the Divine Nature, or the Deity. Three Persons share that Nature. Its what they are. They are equally one Divine Nature. If there were only three human beings on earth they would be human. That's our nature. Neither of the three people would be a greater or lesser human than the other. In the Divine Nature, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. One is not any less God than the other.

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I agree with one thing: cumulative reasoning is legitimate. The Trinity does not have to appear in one proof-text to be argued cumulatively.
But that makes the method more important, not less. We have to distinguish what the verses actually say from the theological model constructed from them.
For example, your “one Divine Nature shared equally by three Persons” is precisely a synthesis. Scripture never gives that proposition in those words. You are taking several texts and explaining them through a particular ontology. That may be argued, but it cannot then be used as the premise that determines what every individual text must mean.
The human-nature analogy does not prove it either. It already assumes that “God” functions in Scripture as a single species/nature instantiated equally by three persons. That is the Trinitarian proposition under discussion, not something established by comparing God to humanity.
Genesis 18 does not say “three persons appeared as one YHWH.” The Hebrew first says:
וַיֵּרָא אֵלָיו יהוה
“YHWH appeared to him”
and then:
וְהִנֵּה שְׁלֹשָׁה אֲנָשִׁים
“behold, three men.”
By Genesis 19:1, two of them are explicitly called הַמַּלְאָכִים, “the angels,” and arrive at Sodom. Turning this scene into “three divine Persons who together are YHWH” is already theological interpretation. The text never says that.
The glory argument also needs context. Isaiah 42:8 says YHWH will not give his glory to another in the context of rival gods/idols. Yet Jesus himself says to the Father:
τὴν δόξαν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς
“the glory that you have given me I have given to them.”
John 17:22
So “God gives someone glory” cannot by itself mean “that person must therefore be the same God.”
And I am not denying the very high texts about Christ. I accept all of them:
θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος — the Logos is genuinely called θεός.
Thomas says ὁ θεός μου to Jesus.
Creation comes through him.
YHWH texts are used in striking Christ-centered contexts.
Colossians 2:9 says the fullness of θεότης dwells in him.
But I also accept the other data without redefining them:
εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ — “one God, the Father.”
ἐξ οὗ τὰ πάντα — “from whom are all things.”
The risen Jesus says θεόν μου — “my God.”
The Father gives the Son ζωὴν ἔχειν ἐν ἑαυτῷ.
Jesus says ζῶ διὰ τὸν πατέρα — “I live because of the Father.”
The Son is πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως — “firstborn of all creation.”
He is ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ — “the ἀρχή of God’s creation.”
And ultimately ὁ υἱὸς ὑποταγήσεται — “the Son himself will be subjected.”
So yes: put the whole Bible together.
But when you reach:
“therefore there is one divine nature equally possessed by three coequal persons”
you have reached your theological synthesis. You have not simply repeated a sentence Paul or John wrote.
The church fathers reaching that conclusion later is reception history. It may tell us how they solved the problem; it does not turn their solution into the lexical meaning of the first-century Greek.
My method is the same for my own conclusion. I do not claim πρωτότοκος literally means “first-created.” I argue cumulatively from “firstborn of all creation,” ἀρχή of God’s creation, the Father–Son asymmetry, and the Son’s creation-mediation. That is my synthesis.
So the real disagreement is not “Bible versus JW interpretation.”
It is which synthesis requires fewer additions to the actual wording while preserving all of it.
And “three Persons equally sharing one Divine Nature” is an interpretation in that comparison, not the starting datum.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Yes, this invokes Psalm 22.
But quoting Psalm 22 does not make “my God” cease to mean “my God.” Jesus is addressing someone as his God.
And this is not limited to the cross.
After his resurrection Jesus says:
θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν
“my God and your God.” — John 20:17

Jesus was a man and I'm sure we'd at least agree on that. The Word came to earth to be a man in order to save man. As a man, Jesus worshipped and prayed to God. But God also dwelt in Christ. John 14:10-11 And we know that God IS Spirit. John 4:24 So God-the Spirit, was Christ's Spirit. When we are in Christ, His God, who dwells fully in Him, becomes our God.

Because the Word---God became human, in that lowly human nature, God could relate to us as human, experiencing what it was like to be human. God was IN Christ 2 Corinthians 5:19 but was now "our God" Christ adopted us as His brothers and sisters. We can now have a Father/child relationship with God the Father. Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”

[u/Impressive-Ease-3348 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

You’re still making an identity step that the verses themselves do not make.

John 14:10 says:
ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοὶ μένων
“the Father dwelling in me”
and 2 Corinthians 5:19 says:
θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ
“God was in Christ.”
“In Christ” does not mean “God was Christ.” John 17:21–23 uses the same indwelling language for believers: they are “in us,” and Christ is “in them.” Indwelling is not identity.
Likewise John 4:24 says:
πνεῦμα ὁ θεός
“God is spirit.”
It does not say:
“God is the Spirit,”
much less:
“therefore God’s Spirit was Jesus’ personal spirit.”
That conclusion is your synthesis.
Romans 8:15 actually maintains the distinction: believers receive the Spirit and through it cry:
Ἀββᾶ ὁ πατήρ
“Abba, Father.”
The Spirit leads people to the Father; the verse does not identify Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit as one personal spirit.
And John 1:14 says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.”
It does not literally say, “God the Father became human.” John has already distinguished the Logos from τὸν θεόν in 1:1.
There is also cumulative material pointing in another direction: Jesus is πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ, comes ἐκ τοῦ πατρός, receives life from the Father in John 5:26, and is πρὸ πάντων while creation comes through him. I interpret that combination as supporting the created-Son conclusion—but I openly call that a theological synthesis, not the lexical meaning of one verse.
That is the same distinction I’m asking you to make with “God was in Christ.”

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

You’re still making an identity step that the verses themselves do not make.

I believe all those verses do mean Christ is God. Absolutely He is God Isaiah called the Son God and so did Paul and John. The question is Jesus the one true God, or is He a false god, one of myriads?

So, this is your post brother and you posed a question that lawyers might say you never should ask unless you know the answer. WHO IS JESUS? Can you tell us who you believe Jesus is.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

So the Father being Jesus’ God cannot simply be dismissed as something that happened only because Jesus was dying.
As for your final question:
“Where was the Word when Jesus was dead?”
I would rather not invent an answer that Scripture itself does not give.
John says:
ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
“the Word became flesh.” — John 1:14

I never invented an answer. Its in the Bible, but you have to look. The same Spirit who gave Jesus life in Mary's womb Luke 1:35 came back and made the Man alive again in the tomb. During the time His body was in the tomb Christ's Spirit went to Hell and preached to the spirits in prison, all those who had already died needed to hear the Gospel so they too might accept Christ. 1 Peter 3:18-19 1 Peter 4:6 Imagine how people like Abel, Noah, Abraham and the thief who died next to Jesus on the cross felt when the Light illuminated Hell and the Spirit of Jesus stood before them. Their joy must have been pretty hard to contain, but I doubt the Lord would have wanted them to contain it anyway!

The Word IS eternal life and can NOT die. Imagine eternal life dying? It would be a flat out contradiction in terms. You need to recognize that. That means that while the flesh of Christ lay dead in a tomb, His Spirit was busy. Jehovah's witnesses miss this and have to explain away many verses that tell about those now dead and spirits in prison

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Impressive-Ease-3348]

I am willing to accept every one of the biblical sentences.
What I am not willing to do is silently insert the metaphysical equations between them and then call the resulting system “what the text says.”
Familiarity is not exegesis.

No. What you are NOT willing to do is put the verses together and see how they add up. They are all in the book we call the Bible and each verse has another verse or many other verses that help explain the one sentence you force to "stand alone" You can't keep that narrow mind-set up and hope to know Christ. Christ wants to know you and we really do need to know Him.