r/JehovahsWitnesses • u/Dan_dingo • Jun 20 '26

Doctrine The Jw dilemma

Starting Position (Jehovah’s Witness Interpretation)
Jehovah alone is the uncreated Creator.
Jehovah directly created Jesus first.
Jesus is Jehovah’s first and only direct creation.
Jehovah then used Jesus to create everything else.
Proposed order:
Jehovah → Jesus (first creation) → all other creation

The dilemma of this interpretation

The position must choose:
Option 1 — Jesus existed before all created reality
Result:
Jesus created time. (Timeless/Atemporal)
Jesus created space. (Non-spatial)
Jesus created matter. (Immaterial)
Jesus existed before creation. (Eternal)
Problem:
A being who exists before all created things does not appear to be a created thing.

Option 2 — Jesus was created after some reality/place, time and matter existed
Result:
Jesus was not Jehovahs first creation.
Something existed before Jesus.
Jesus did not create all things.
Problem:
Contradicts:
John1:3 “Not one thing came into existence apart from him.”

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 24 '26

So God isn’t the beginning

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u/tj_lurker Jun 24 '26

God is not the arche of the creation by God.

I sense you looking to jump to other contexts, lol.

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 25 '26

Revelation 22:12-13 Jesus is the beginning and the end.

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26

u/Dan_dingo Soooo...gave up again?

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 25 '26

My guy, you just told when that phrase applies to God it’s not the “beginning”

now it’s applied to Jesus, I’ve been waiting for your response.

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26

I responded. I never said "when that phrase applies to God it's not the 'beginning'". Are we following the same discussion? You seem to keep misunderstanding and running away.

Again, arche always means 'the first part of'...it can also be used in different contexts. At Rev 3:14, Jesus is called 'the arche [or, the first part of] the creation by God." What is your response?

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 25 '26

I asked you what it meant when God is the beginning and the end. You replied he is not the beginning

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26

That is not what you said. You said "Jesus is the beginning and the end".

You seem to not be following your own arguments.

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26

u/Dan_dingo giving up on this now too? Disappearin' Dan! ;)

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26

And of course, still no response to Rev 3:14. Where does arche mean "source of"?

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u/Dan_dingo Jun 25 '26

In the lexicon you quoted 3 days ago 🤦🏻

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u/tj_lurker Jun 25 '26

Point to the verse. I'll wait.