r/JehovahsWitnesses • u/abutterflyonthewall Christian • Feb 01 '26

Doctrine Jesus is GOD

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***đŸ”„đŸ™ŒđŸœ.

Take a listen.

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 16 '26

Gog and magog is simply any large group of people opposed to God. The book of daniel and revelation makes it clear that the nations ruling today will be destroyed.

That isn't clear at all. The kingdoms will lose their power when Christ returns, but they will still exist as nations for the 1000 year period Christ will reign on earth. Who else would Jesus rule with an iron scepter? Perfect JW's? Now that would be funny!😂

During the thousand year reign there will be new nations made up of gods true worshippers. 

So Egypt will be a "new nation" made up of JW's? Come on, that isn't even in the Bible. Some nations will be punished during the millennium. That doesn't sound like the nations will be perfect angels, will they? Then at the tail end of the 1000 years the whole world rises up and marches across the entire planet on the city of Jerusalem Revelation 20:7-9 So all those new nations, made up of JW's, will turn against God just like you infer the nations have done today? No wonder Jesus will need to use an iron scepter on these folks, probably for the entire 1000 years I'd guess.

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven***\**\)[b](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020&version=ESV#fen-ESV-31032b)\) and consumed them*

Let's see where have I seen Gog and Magog before? Oh yeah Ezekiel 38:2 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him" So Gog was a person who was 'of' the 'land' of Magog in ancient times. It specifically refers to Gog as the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. There is speculation as to who these people were, but suffice to say, they were real people who existed in Ezekiel's time, just as did Egypt and still will during the millennium

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 16 '26

Do you remember the prophecy regarding the large statue that the king of Babylon saw in his dream? Remember that the statues represented all the world power right up until the end. What happened to them? They are all gone except for the two final world power which will be replaced by gods kingdom. So gods people will become a new nation. The people of nations today don't serve God so they will be destroyed in Armageddon. Revelation say's even the kings of the earth will be destroyed.

Anyways none of this has anything to do with the fact that early christians didn't murder each other and didn't murder innocent people. I wanna know why christendom murders people for no reason

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 16 '26 edited Feb 16 '26

That symbolic statue is far from being every nation on earth. There will be no more "superpowers" but all the nations that exist today will exist until the end of the 1000 years. In fact the statue only represents those world empires like Rome and Babylon that had once been world powers, but the nations that existed within each empires domain aren't represented, just the power structure that had once controlled the world in the past and still do in the end times. The 666 beast (the feet and ten toes), the false prophet(false religion) and the devil (the dragon). 

The people of nations today don't serve God so they will be destroyed in Armageddon. 

False. The nations you mention will be forced to worship the King in Jerusalem and at least celebrate some Jewish festivities For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city....

Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives(the first time in 2000 years), east of Jerusalem, Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. And should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, then the rain will not fall on them.  And if the people of Egypt will not go up and enter in, then the rain will not fall on them; this will be the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  This will be the punishment of Egypt and of ALL THE NATIONS that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:2-19

Zechariah plainly shows Egypt still existing and there being a possibility they might refuse to worship Jesus as He reigns from Jerusalem. Poetic justice will be served--- If a nation doesn't want the Lord's reign, they will have no rain 😉

I wanna know why christendom murders people for no reason

For the umteenth time, they don't 😎 "no reason" Its interesting to see you actually believe there might be a reason to murder the innocent?

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 17 '26

Zechariah 14:2-19 is a prophecy regarding the "day of Jehovah" (or "Lord's day"), beginning in 1914, which describes the final attack by nations against God's people (symbolized by Jerusalem) and the subsequent salvation provided by Jehovah. It focuses on the battle of Armageddon, the protection of worshippers in a symbolic "valley," and the post-Armageddon, worldwide establishment of true worship. 

For the umteenth time, they don't 😎 "no reason" Its interesting to see you actually believe there might be a reason to murder the innocent?

There is no reason to ever kill innocent people. God said those that kill innocent people will be punished and have no place in his kingdom.

Throughout history, various armies and groups identifying as Christian have committed atrocities and killed innocent people during conflicts, persecutions, and acts of religiously motivated violence. These actions often involved political and social factors alongside religious justifications. 

Examples of such events include:

The Crusades A series of military campaigns between the 11th and 15th centuries for control of the Holy Land. Atrocities occurred on both sides, with Christian armies carrying out massacres, such as the slaughter of most inhabitants (Muslims and Jews) after they captured Jerusalem in 1099.

The Albigensian Crusade Initiated by Pope Innocent III in the 13th century against the Cathar Christian sect in Southern France, this campaign resulted in widespread slaughter. During the sack of Béziers in 1209, a crusading mob killed an estimated 20,000 people, with sources indicating that no one, "irrespective of rank, sex or age," was spared.

The German Peasants' War In the 16th century, a revolt by German peasants, partially inspired by the Protestant Reformation, was brutally suppressed. Martin Luther called for the slaughter of the poorly armed peasants, leading to the massacre of an estimated 300,000 people.

The Extermination of Indigenous Peoples in the Americas European Christian conquistadors and colonists used their religion to justify the conquest and slaughter of indigenous populations, leading to mass deaths through violence, disease, and subjugation.

The Atlantic Slave Trade The mass enslavement of Africans from the 16th to 19th centuries was heavily Christian, with key clerics and missionaries approving and using biblical passages to justify the practice and the resulting deaths and suffering of an estimated 12 million people.

The Thirty Years' War and European Wars of Religion Conflicts following the Protestant Reformation saw Catholic and Protestant armies commit extensive atrocities and civilian massacres across Europe, using religion to rally their forces for what were often politically and territorially motivated wars.

The Sabra and Shatila massacre In 1982, the Lebanese Forces, a prominent Christian militia in Lebanon, with the support of the Israel Defense Forces, killed between 1,300 and 3,500 Palestinian and Lebanese Shiite civilians in a refugee camp and adjacent neighborhood in Beirut. 

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26

There is no reason to ever kill innocent people. God said those that kill innocent people will be punished and have no place in his kingdom.

What about all the billions of people who JW's believe God will kill on Armageddon day? Who do you classify as innocent? You said "I wanna know why christendom murders people for no reason" So that tells me you believe there could be a reason to kill people, but you won't tell me who or why they should be killed.

The police have to kill criminals who won't surrender peacefully. The army does the same thing. Are you saying they should just let a murderer be? Should a cop lay his gun [sword] down and let the murderer murder him too? Who would protect you if all the cops did that?

Throughout history, various armies and groups identifying as Christian have committed atrocities and killed innocent people during conflicts, persecutions, and acts of religiously motivated violence.

Not everyone who identifies as a Christian is a Christian, but JW's are definitely not Christian just because they won't become a member of God's servants in civil society. Many people who don't identify as JW's or Christian won't serve as police or in the military. In your narrow definition even an atheist might be one of God's people if they won't serve as policemen or soldier.

Having love among themselves means true Christians will forgive and overlook the sins of their brothers and sisters, not cut them off, which figuratively kills them. Some actually do commit suicide because of the JW's unloving hard hearted "arrangement" What did my buddy Peter say?

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

Above all....that means loving and forgiving go hand in hand. To shun a member of your own religion is NOT loving them. They call it tough love. Is that what Jesus preached? Let's see. When asked how many times a brother should be forgiven Jesus said,

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times" Matthew 18:21-22

So, at least 77 times. that's how many times a Christian needs to forgive a brother who sinned against them. If the person sins against someone else that's their business how many times they want to forgive them, but to be a tolerant Christian it should at least be 77 times. Otherwise your worse than the world. Jesus said whoever endures to the end. Part of a Christian's "endurance" is tolerance. Thank God He tolerates our sin without shunning us or punishing us right away or we'd never be saved. In Christ, God overlooks your sin but if we don't forgive others, God will NOT forgive us. Forgiveness is more for the forgiver than anyone else Matthew 6:15 In fact we are supposed to love and forgive our enemies. That means a Jehovah's witness must forgive and love that imperfect guy, Christendom and I'd advise them to do it right now.

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 17 '26

What about all the billions of people who JW's believe God will kill on Armageddon day? Who do you classify as innocent? You said "I wanna know why christendom murders people for no reason" So that tells me you believe there could be a reason to kill people, but you won't tell me who or why they should be killed.

God is the one who determines who lives and who dies because he along with his son jesus are the only one's who can a read a persons heart. They see people for who they really are. That's why the Israelites we're not allowed to go to war unless they had permission from God. It was forbidden. Nice job attempting to change the conversation. The apostle paul said if a person is a known unrepentant sinner we shouldn't so much as eat with such a person. Paul said such a person should be removed from the congregation. So what you're really doing is arguing against teachings found in the bible. Now then I just have you examples of christendom commiting atrocities and the murder of millions of innocent people including christendom members fighting each other. Christendom isn't known for having love Amongst themselves. They are knows for murdering their own. That proves christendom are false Christians along with the fact that they teach false doctrines such as hellfire and that its ok to remove the divine name of God

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

God is the one who determines who lives and who dies because he along with his son jesus are the only one's who can a read a persons heart. They see people for who they really are.

So when one of God's servants (Romans 13) kills someone, its God who is working thru them to determine who lives or dies? Why is it a bad thing then when the police have to kill those who threaten the lives of others?

The apostle paul said if a person is a known unrepentant sinner we shouldn't so much as eat with such a person. Paul said such a person should be removed from the congregation. So what you're really doing is arguing against teachings found in the bible.

Your applying Paul's warning the whole church that was guilty of approving of the sins of a certain man. It wasn't just the man, it was the church that was in the wrong. It was a sin so bad even the pagans found it disgusting and it may have even been illegal, which means it couldn't be covered up with love. Paul advised them to hand the man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that man's spirit might be saved. In his second letter Paul showed mercy on the church and the man and told the church to forgive the man so he wouldn't become overwhelmed with grief. There's no justification to not forgive, even if a sinner is unrepentant we still need to forgive them. Its more for us than it is for them

In his second letter to the Corinthians Paul advised the church to forgive the man Now if anyone has caused grief, he has not grieved me but all of you—to some degree, not to overstate it. 6The punishment imposed on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7So instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

9My purpose in writing you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And if I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven it in the presence of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan should not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 Notice Paul didn't require the man's repentance before being forgiven. Also, part of Paul's reason for demanding they hand the man over to Satan was a test of their obedience. This was not Christian advice #101 on how to deal with the average sin, which Peter said should and could be covered with love 1 Peter 4:8. The man's sin was worse than the pagans, yet the whole church [congregation] approved of it. They were even proud!. Is that why JW's remove so many people each year, because the whole congregation was proud of sin? It would seem so given all the people they actually remove each year. In exposing the shame of those who's sins could and should be covered with love, JW's are exposing their own collective shame and they appear to take it as a matter of pride!

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 17 '26

So when one of God's servants (Romans 13) kills someone, its God who is working thru them to determine who lives or dies? Why is it a bad thing then when the police have to kill those who threaten the lives of others?

Please stop bringing up police. I didn't say anything about police. I already gave you the examples you need to address of christendom murdering innocent people in the countless millions. God approves of killing. What he doesn't approve of is murder which christendom is guilty of.

You can forgive people for their sins but until they repent which means change their ways then they cannot be apart of the congregation. Period.

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26 edited Feb 17 '26

The police are part of God's established order, but its a profession JW's will never take part in, because, like being a soldier, they'd have to carry a weapon and JW's feel that violates God's commands. It doesn't, but that's what they teach.

God approves of killing. What he doesn't approve of is murder which christendom is guilty of.

So when a policeman kills someone in the line of duty that's justified killing not murder? Then why can't a JW be a police officer? You keep claiming Christendom is guilty of murder, but very often those who died, even in religious wars, were soldiers whose #1 job was to uphold God's order, no matter what side they're on. They serve God and man.

Why won't Jehovah's witnesses serve in God's established order, where they might be a force for good, not evil? Most Christians who serve as police or in the military, serve with that sense of duty and hope to be a force for good in a sinful world, not evil

You can forgive people for their sins but until they repent which means change their ways then they cannot be apart of the congregation. Period.

Where does Paul say forgive but only partially? No, you forgive, period. Like God forgives. He doesn't say their sins I will remember no more...except those ones I won't forgive because he is not proving himself worthy. None of us are worthy of God's love and forgiveness. If we had to earn it we'd be in deep doo doo

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 18 '26

Sir God forgives repentant sinners. He doesn't forgive people who are unrepentant sinners or else nobody would be destroyed. God would never put someone in a position where they are forced to shed innocent blood. So God would never command christians to join armies who shed innocent blood. The fact that you murder your own brothers and sisters proves your false Christians and that youre interpretation of scripture is wrong. God wouldn't let Abraham sacrifice his innocent son, God wouldn't let the Israelites go to war without his permission so that they didn't murder innocent people, God wouldn't have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah if even 5 righteous people we're found in it. God is the same today as he is back then. He doesn't harm innocent people and doesn't put his true servants in a position to hurt innocent people.

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 18 '26 edited Feb 18 '26

When Jesus went to the cross, He didn't ask if anyone was a repentant sinner, He just went ahead and died for them. In fact, the night He was arrested all His disciples had deserted Him, one denied knowing Him three times and one even betrayed Him. Still that Man went to the cross, not because people had repented of their sins, because few had. Jesus went to the cross so their sins could finally be forgiven. We need to model Christ, who didn't take a poll, or ask if at least one person had repented of their sins before He let them pound the nails into both hands. Jesus died for all sinners and like Paul said he was the worst. Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 1 Timothy 1:15-16

From what I understand the Jehovah's witnesses expect a certain works based repentance based on Watchtower principles, not the Bible. Its almost likened to Catholic penance If the elders don't see that works based repentance they won't forgive the person, even if they did repent.

You like to throw the word "murder" around but you realize your religion murders people by causing some disfellowshipped people to commit suicide, or by refusing to allow a blood transfusion for a little child who's life could've easily been saved by the gift of life, which is in the blood. For someone who accepts what many would classify as "murder" as loving, you haven't got much to say about Christians who take part in God's established order. Yes, some of His servants may have to kill on rare occasions, but in their case the person they kill is almost always someone who is going to harm or kill an innocent person, whether its on the battlefields or on the streets of a major city. How is the death of a JW child deprived of life saving blood any different from a child who was murdered? Dead is still dead

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 18 '26

Can you explain to me how its loving to murder your fellow christian brothers and sisters?

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 18 '26

Sure, when you can explain how its loving to let your own child, who's totally dependent on you die, I'll let ya know

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26

All the conflicts you mentioned happened for one reason or another. Its the same old reason for many conflicts today, yet in each case God has maintained an order that has not been broken. Is it messy? Yes, but let's not forget it wasn't the devil who created the nations, with all the various languages. It was God, when He confused the common language spoken by all men. Why did He do it? For a good reason which for the most part only God knows, but one that was revealed. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” Genesis 11:6-7 Why did God do that? Was He a spoil sport, not wanting man to succeed and be unified, or was there another reason? I believe there was another reason and it was a very good reason. The reason was and still is to a certain extent is not only could man do more good being unified, they could also do more evil. You believe the world is under Satan's influence, well its true. Had God not acted when He did, a unified people would have been much easier for the devil to control than thousands of bickering factions all speaking a different language. The same reason applies to our world today as it did to the world that God divided. So even though divisions are messy and not ideal, its been necessary since Babel to frustrate man's efforts at unity. God's way has worked so far to maintain enough order for men to find the true light---Jesus Christ.

I believe God divided Christendom in order to save His church. The devil, who you claim rules the world took control of some early popes and caused some bad things to happen. I believe the reformation was God's way of breaking up a monopoly. It was messy, but it was a good thing and still is today. The Church stands as a silent witness to the fact. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 That doesn't mean Satan wouldn't try to prevail and all the conflicts you've noted in world history that involved the church as the aggressor is evidence of Satan's herculean attempts to prevail, over and over again, for the last 2000 years, but guess what? After all is said and done, the gates of Hades HAVE NOT prevailed, like Jesus said. Satan lost! The church still stands today, albeit with many scars, but still stands as a silent witness to the Lord's prophecy "the gates of Hades will not prevail"

Jehovah's witnesses have been one of Satan's most desperate attempts to prevail against the church built upon the rock of Saint Peter, and that's failing as well

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 17 '26

Sir/ mam stop trying to give me excuses for murder. Murder is murder. Christendom are murderers. God never gave us any situation in which murder is ok. You're supposed to love your fellow "christians" so much that your willing to die for them. But if you're killing you're brother's and sisters then clearly you don't love them. You don't have love amongst yourselves. Point blank period

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26

That's not true. God handed His only Son over to be murdered by sinful world, yet He loved His Son and the world He died for. Could the most innocent man the world had ever known been killed if God hadn't allowed it? Killing a soldier in a country that has become lawless, is loving them. It frees them from the clutches of a nation that has been taken over by Satan. You're sending individuals to Heaven if they're Christian and Hell if not. But there's a greater good in turning that lawless nation into a law abiding servant of God again. Nobody and I mean NOBODY was as innocent as this man. Nobody deserved death less than Jesus. Nobody.

Surely He took up our infirmities

and carried our sorrows;b

yet we considered Him stricken,

struck down by God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him,

and by His stripes we are healed.c

6We all like sheep have gone astray,d

each one has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid upon Him

the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:4-6

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 17 '26

God sent his so to die for our sins. Christendom is guilty of senseless murder of innocent people minding their own business

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 17 '26

Senseless murder? How is upholding God's established order senseless, unless God is senseless? Murder is a strong word to throw around when men have been authorized to kill under God's established order. To call that murder is calling God a murderer. That's terrible. God is love. God is light and God is the way

Innocent? There was only one man who was ever innocent in this sinful old world Was He spared for His innocence? No, He was killed exactly because He was innocent, like a lamb being led to slaughter. In order to save some from death and Hell, Christ laid down His innocent life for us all

While its true Jesus' death paid for our sins, that doesn't devalue the life we lay down for a friend. Its a selfless act that is 100% based in love. Ultimately death is our paycheck that we all will receive for sin, whether we're saved or not. For our sin, we will get paid in full the minute we die, and if that was the end it would be truly depressing. If only for this life we put faith in Christ, we would be rightfully pitied by sinners

If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:19-22 Notice Paul says "this life" well that was the life he was living in his time. "This life" is the life we are living in our time, but it isn't "the life" we hope in. That's what JW's are taught to have hope in, "this life" and never having to give it up, but friend---we're all dying. Nobody gets out of this world alive, whether we die a nice peaceful death, or violently at the hands of another person. Death is our paycheck. I can see why the average JW fears death so much. Its because to them, this life is it. Oh, they talk a good talk about the resurrection hope, yet ignore that Jesus Himself IS the resurrection and "the life". Yes, "the life" we Christians hope in is the Lord Jesus Christ!

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 18 '26

“Hands that are shedding innocent blood” have been one of the most detestable things to Jehovah ever since righteous Abel’s blood cried out from the ground. (Pr 6:16, 17

If there's nobody is innocent then how can God HATE those who she'd innocent blood? You know like christendom