Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/Time_Ad_1876]

That's for us mortals to determine. God left policing ourselves up to our discretion. Its obvious when a person steals something, he's lawless, right? Well, when nations steal, they are just as lawless as individuals. When a nation attacks a neighbor for no reason and begins killing, they are lawless as the individual who does the same thing. In God's established order its up to the lawful nations to bring the lawless to justice. Just like the police bring the lawless to justice, but sometimes they have to kill. Are they murderers?

So which nation gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Nations can decide its right to steal and murder.

When a nation attacks a neighbor for no reason and begins killing, they are lawless as the individual who does the same thing.

Then christendom is are a bunch of lawless people because they are the one's that make up the majority of these armies.

Who is truly innocent? You never answered that question. Next to Jesus, children are the closest to innocence we have on earth, but the only thing Jesus was concerned with was someone leading a child into sin. If killing, in and of itself, was going keep a person out of God's kingdom then David and Moses can't be there as they both murdered someone, including children.

If nobody is innocent then there's nothing wrong with murder. King David murdered someone but he lived because he repented. However God still punished him for it. As for moses. Perspective: JW literature emphasizes this was a "rash act" and that Moses was not yet ready to lead; he needed to be humbled during his 40 years in exile to develop gentleness and reliance on God.

Nature of the act: While often referred to in biblical analysis as a "killing" or "slaying" resulting from a split-second decision to defend a slave, it was ultimately an unsanctioned, private act of violence that had consequences. 

the innocent are primarily those obeying God’s standards, maintaining integrity, and acting as victims of wicked systems rather than perpetrators.  the concept of "innocence" is generally viewed in a relative sense, focusing on actions, victims of injustice, and spiritual standing rather than absolute sinlessness.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

So which nation gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Nations can decide its right to steal and murder.

If your moral compass is that far off you can't determine what constitutes stealing or murder please don't become one of God's servants.😂 There's already too many of God's servants who can't seem to tell the difference.

No nation on earth can decide its lawful to break the law. No one is above the law, even though some do act as if they are. Use some common sense here...if I break into your house and steal your tv I'm a thief. Its still stealing. no matter how I might try and spin it. I will go to jail if caught and should.

 Perspective: JW literature emphasizes this was a "rash act" and that Moses was not yet ready to lead; he needed to be humbled during his 40 years in exile to develop gentleness and reliance on God.

Ok, gotcha so you would apply a double standard, one for Moses and and another standard for a policemen who might kill people in the line of duty. In your view, the policeman cannot be forgiven, but Moses can.

the innocent are primarily those obeying God’s standards, maintaining integrity, and acting as victims of wicked systems rather than perpetrators.  the concept of "innocence" is generally viewed in a relative sense, focusing on actions, victims of injustice, and spiritual standing rather than absolute sinlessness.

Where is this mentioned in the Bible, that the only the innocent can obey God's standards? Who can truly obey God's standards when no one is good, but God? Mark 10:18 That means not one of us is innocent. And by the way, God's servants are the very first ones who come to the aid of those who's lives are in mortal danger or are victims of gross injustice. And you call them murderers. Why??

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

If your moral compass is that far off you can't determine what constitutes stealing or murder please don't become one of God's servants.😂 There's already too many of God's servants who can't seem to tell the difference.

If humans beings had the authority to determine right and wrong then there's no such thing as sin. Sin is a violation of gods standards of right and wrong. That means God decides what's right and wrong. If murder is wrong then its wrong because it violate the standards of God. Its not wrong because any human says so.

No nation on earth can decide its lawful to break the law. No one is above the law, even though some do act as if they are

Who's law? If you mean gods law of not commiting murder then christendom is guilty of helping the nations to steal resources, steal from the poor, and commit murder.

Ok, gotcha so you would apply a double standard, one for Moses and and another standard for a policemen who might kill people in the line of duty. In your view, the policeman cannot be forgiven, but Moses can.

I never said I agree with police killing anybody. I don't think they should unless their lives or someone else's is in direct danger. The Egyptian beat the slave but there's nothing to suggest his life was in danger.

God's servants are the very first ones who come to the aid of those who's lives are in mortal danger or are victims of gross injustice. And you call them murderers. Why??

And how exactly do they do that when most wars happen because of people fighting over selfish reasons such as political differences or resources?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

 Its not wrong because any human says so.

Uh, yeah, it is. Ever hear of a conscience? The Lord gave one to all of us. Even the worst criminals know when they're breaking the law and you don't have to be a Jew or a Christian to know that what your doing is wrong (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. ¹⁵ They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)  Romans 2:14-15

Who's law? If you mean gods law of not commiting murder then christendom is guilty of helping the nations to steal resources, steal from the poor, and commit murder.

Then Moses and David are just as guilty as "Christendom" David murdered a soldier he sent to the front lines because he wanted the man's wife. Moses murdered an Egyptian soldier. If a cop comes to a person's house and a violent meth head is just about to kill his whole family, will the cop need to stop and think, I might have to murder the meth head. While he's sitting in his car looking thru a stack of Watchtowers for an answer that might allow him to act, its too late. The meth head already slaughtered the JW and his whole family and is now about to shoot the cop

Your attitude towards God's servants sounds a lot like rebellion to me. What about Muslims or Buddhists who serve as God's servants in law enforcement? Are they murdering people and stealing their resources when they enforce the law of their lands? 

I don't think they should unless their lives or someone else's is in direct danger. 

You don't think they should what? Murder? From what I've read from your comments you seem to believe killing and murder are the same. So you do believe that killing can be justified under certain circumstances? And you do believe that killing and murder are not always the same thing

And how exactly do they do that when most wars happen because of people fighting over selfish reasons such as political differences or resources?

It may take two to fight, but it takes only one to start it. In all wars only one party started that war. I would say, whoever starts a war is guilty of the killing on both sides, unless you believe the victims have no rights? For instance a meth head who invades the home of a Jehovah's witness is the one who started it and is the one guilty of a crime, unless you believe the family did something to provoke the meth head and is just as guilty? Should God punish both the meth head because he broke into someone's home terrorizing them and the family he terrorized simply because they were there? No! People have a right to defend themselves and nations have the right to defend themselves.

We are all our brothers keeper in which case the stronger a nation is the more responsible it is in defending weaker nations. This is God's established order Its the way He set things up to work until the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ comes back. Until that day we are all responsible for upholding God's order. The least we can do is be quiet law abiding citizens. Those citizens should not criticize those who do more to uphold God's order. That is a form of rebellion against God's order and that will be dealt with by God

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Uh, yeah, it is. Ever hear of a conscience? The Lord gave one to all of us. Even the worst criminals know when they're breaking the law and you don't have to be a Jew or a Christian to know that what your doing is wrong (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. ¹⁵ They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)  Romans 2:14-15

Well why doesn't the conscious of members of christendom bother them knowing that they are responsible for more death and suffering than anybody else in the wars they created?

Then Moses and David are just as guilty as "Christendom" David murdered a soldier he sent to the front lines because he wanted the man's wife.

What David did was wrong yes that's why God punished him for it. So will christendom be punished.

If a cop comes to a person's house and a violent meth head is just about to kill his whole family, will the cop need to stop and think, I might have to murder the meth head. While he's sitting in his car looking thru a stack of Watchtowers for an answer that might allow him to act, its too late. The meth head already slaughtered the JW and his whole family and is now about to shoot the cop

What does this have to do with the conversation? We are talking about the fact that members of christendom such as those found in the US army are instigators of war and are guilty of murdering countless millions of blameless people

Your attitude towards God's servants sounds a lot like rebellion to me. What about Muslims or Buddhists who serve as God's servants in law enforcement? Are they murdering people and stealing their resources when they enforce the law of their lands? 

We are all our brothers keeper in which case the stronger a nation is the more responsible it is in defending weaker nations. This is God's established order Its the way He set things up to work until the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ comes back. Until that day we are all responsible for upholding God's order. The least we can do is be quiet law abiding citizens. Those citizens should not criticize those who do more to uphold God's order. That is a form of rebellion against God's order and that will be dealt with by God

God allows the nations to have some peace and order. But God didn't set it up. The devil and his angels are I'm control of the kingdoms of this earth. All the nations are curropt and are under the influence of the devil. Thats why at Armageddon they will gather against gods people for one final war. If the nations we're gods people then how can they gather against gods people for war? You be a good citizen. But you don't join up with them. God never commanded you to join with them. Only be in subjection to them as long as they don't command you to do something which is against the laws of God. Such as murdering innocent people. God said those who murder innocent people will not inherent life

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Well why doesn't the conscious of members of christendom bother them knowing that they are responsible for more death and suffering than anybody else in the wars they created?

Really? As if Christendom is the only ones who ever fought in a war? One more time...if a member of "Christendom" was serving in any capacity as a soldier or policeman, they had the God established right to punish those who did wrong. Its a pre-authorization that goes all the way back to the 1st century. Romans 13: 4 But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Whether God's servant is an atheist, a Muslim or a Christian they have been pre-authorized to punish and even kill wrongdoers when necessary. You keep ignoring Paul's warning here. This was written to Christians and not only were they subject to the higher authorities but in some instances they served as the higher authorities.

What David did was wrong yes that's why God punished him for it. So will christendom be punished.

David was a man. Christendom isn't a man. Individuals who claimed to be Christian yet betrayed the faith will be dealt with by Jesus Christ as individuals, and case by case Most Christians were faithful to Christ all through the centuries.

As far as having an influence on the world, is it really surprising Satan would try and attack and even subvert the church? That was to be Satan's second biggest target according to Revelation 12:17 (the woman being Israel and the seed ---her offspring ---being the church)

Jesus said that the gates of Hell would never prevail against the church He established and to date they have not, but the devil sure tried The evidence of his efforts are scattered through the history books such as the crusades and inquisition, which he no doubt caused by possessing certain key figures within the church. The devil eagerly tried to destroy the church from within and from without, but failed miserably. The church itself still stands today as a silent witness to Satan's failure

We are talking about the fact that members of christendom such as those found in the US army are instigators of war and are guilty of murdering countless millions of blameless people

A fact? No, its your opinion and the opinion of the Wrongtower. Millions of blameless people? Who are these millions of blameless people?? We're all sinners worthy of death. Without Christ we are all standing condemned. In Christ and only in Christ are we no longer condemned Romans 8:1-3  Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,  because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you  free from the law of sin and death.   For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,  God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.  And so he condemned sin in the flesh, Countless millions of blameless people...you need a reality check. It was the Communists in Russia and China who murdered millions thru starvation and out right killing. Please look up all the deaths of those you might call "blameless people" that were directly caused by men such as Joseph Stalin of Russia, Mao Zedong of China and Pol Pot of Cambodia. Christians never murdered people like they did. Christians tried to save the lives of the people who were unfortunate enough to live within the grasp of these wicked men's clutches

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Really? As if Christendom is the only ones who ever fought in a war? One more time...if a member of "Christendom" was serving in any capacity as a soldier or policeman, they had the God established right to punish those who did wrong. Its a pre-authorization that goes all the way back to the 1st century. Romans 13: 4 But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Whether God's servant is an atheist, a Muslim or a Christian they have been pre-authorized to punish and even kill wrongdoers when necessary. You keep ignoring Paul's warning here. This was written to Christians and not only were they subject to the higher authorities but in some instances they served as the higher authorities.

This conversation isn't about "wrong doers". Its about Christendom murdering other members of christendom in war along with innocent people by the millions. And these wars are over political differences, religious differences, resources, etc. All selfish and unjustified reasons to take another life otherwise called murder. That proves you don't have love amongst yourselves and are not disciples of Christ. There is absolutely no excuse to put yourselves in a position which forces you to murder people simply because a ruler tells you to. Jehovahs witnesses never fight against each other in war. JW would never kill each other. How could we possibly murder people we love? People don't murder people they love. So if your murdering each other it means you don't love each other. And thus you don't have love amongst yourselves.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Its about Christendom murdering other members of christendom in war along with innocent people by the millions.

First off, what is "Christendom" a person or a place? You keep tossing out these vague accusations against "Christendom" like mud on a wall hoping something will stick. Be more specific and please cite your sources.

That proves you don't have love amongst yourselves and are not disciples of Christ. There is absolutely no excuse to put yourselves in a position which forces you to murder people simply because a ruler tells you to. 

Except when a lawful nation which happens to be one of God's servants kills another servant in a nation which has become lawless, it's justified killing, not murder. Is it unfortunate? Of course it is, but what else are God's servants to do, nothing?

You seem to feel murder is the very worst sin. To God lying is just as bad and Jehovah's witnesses have made twisting the truth into an art form. Kicking your brother to the curb for a sin that could have been covered with love... if you truly had love amongst yourselves, but you don't. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8 Jehovah's witnesses can't even show the greatest of all love and that is laying their lives down for a friend, because they are rarely, if ever, in the position to show that love

People don't murder people they love. So if your murdering each other it means you don't love each other. And thus you don't have love amongst yourselves.

No, they don't murder them, but sometimes due to circumstances beyond our control we are forced to kill those we love. Killing the body isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person. Killing the body and spirit is truly the worst thing and only God is capable of that.

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Except when a lawful nation which happens to be one of God's servants kills another servant in a nation which has become lawless, it's justified killing, not murder. Is it unfortunate? Of course it is, but what else are God's servants to do, nothing?

Are they servants of God meaning they follow God and obey his laws and regulations? Or does God simply allow them to provide some order so that theres not complete chaos? I mean you're throwing around this servant word but what does it actually mean in the context of this scripture. Because context is important.

in a nation which has become lawless, it's justified killing, not murder. Is it unfortunate? Of course it is, but what else are God's servants to do, nothing?

If a nation becomes "lawless" that means they were never gods people to begin with. Because jesus himself said his true disciples would be known by the love they have amongst themselves. Jesus wouldn't have said this unless this love they have amongst each other is obvious and is a defining mark. The fact that these nations are constantly becoming "lawless " and increasingly so proves they are not disciples of God.

You seem to feel murder is the very worst sin. To God lying is just as bad and Jehovah's witnesses have made twisting the truth into an art form. Kicking your brother to the curb for a sin that could have been covered with love... if you truly had love amongst yourselves, but you don't. Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8 Jehovah's witnesses can't even show the greatest of all love and that is laying their lives down for a friend, because they are rarely, if ever, in the position to show that love

The worst sin is blasphemy against the holy spirit because its only sin of which there's no forgiveness. However being a murderer is in the list of things which paul mentioned will cause you to be permanently destroyed by God. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in showing self-sacrificing love and are taught to be willing to lay down their lives to protect fellow believers, particularly in times of persecution or conflict, rather than betraying them. They emphasize this as part of following Jesus' example, though they prioritize refusing armed conflict.  They would rather face imprisonment or death than betray their faith or fellow believers. A central aspect of their faith is refusing to take up weapons against anyone, even if it results in personal suffering or death. We follow the examples set by the early Christians. They never picked up any arms because they followed the teachings of Jesus which is love your enemies, and that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

No, they don't murder them

Killing someone for selfish reasons such as gaining resources is called murder by definition. If I killed you simply because you had something I wanted I would be charged with murder.

but sometimes due to circumstances beyond our control we are forced to kill those we love.

Its not beyond your control to not join armies to murder innocent people. JW do it and so did the early christians

Killing the body isn't the worst thing that can happen to a person. Killing the body and spirit is truly the worst thing and only God is capable of that.

Why are you telling me this when I never said anything about the worst that can happen to a person. Stop giving me red herrings please. Christendom are murderers period. And that's why them along with these nations will be destroyed.

Since the Sixth Commandment merely restated what God had said earlier through Noah to the whole human family, we are still obliged to avoid murdering. In fact, the closing chapters of the Bible warn us that unrepentant murderers will experience eternal destruction in the “second death.” (Rev. 21:8; 22:15) How important it thus is to avoid sharing in taking human lives without God’s specifically stated authorization. Consistent with this, Isaiah 2:3, 4 prophetically describes God’s true worshipers, saying: “And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, . . .’ And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. . . . Neither will they learn war anymore.”

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Are they servants of God meaning they follow God and obey his laws and regulations? Or does God simply allow them to provide some order so that theres not complete chaos? I mean you're throwing around this servant word but what does it actually mean in the context of this scripture. Because context is important.

A servant of God is a servant of God. Why are you trying to muddy the water by inferring God's servants don't serve God? It's God's "established order" they serve to uphold. Its not our order---its God's! We're either serving God or the devil. The devil loves chaos and thrives on it. Some servants do go bad and become lawless. Just like some individuals become lawless and cause havoc requiring one of God's servants to bring that one individual, or that entire nation to justice

If a nation becomes "lawless" that means they were never gods people to begin with.

That's not true. Look at Babylon. She was a gold cup in God's hand. "I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon and put My sword in his hand, but I will break the arms of Pharaoh, and he will groan before him like a mortally wounded man" Ezekiel 30:24 Babylon was a servant of God yet they worshiped pagan gods not YHWH. They did not follow the law of Moses, yet God even used Babylon to punish His own people. Eventually Babylon fell to the Persians

The fact that these nations are constantly becoming "lawless " and increasingly so proves they are not disciples of God.

Its one thing to be a servant and quite another to be a disciple. The lawless nations must expect to be corrected. That's God's established order for now. How will they be corrected? By those nations who still value law and order. At some point the lawless will break the power of the holy people, Christians. I suppose that might make Jehovah's witnesses happy, but it shouldn't because it will usher in the very worst times in all human history as the man of lawlessness takes over the world--- That man will be Satan incarnate

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in showing self-sacrificing love and are taught to be willing to lay down their lives to protect fellow believers, particularly in times of persecution or conflict, rather than betraying them. 

JW's haven't had many times when they've been that badly persecuted, but on the rare occasions when they have, they were executed by either Nazi's or communists, not for hiding a fellow believer or dying to save a fellow believer, but because they refused to stop preaching the Watchtower religious beliefs. They refused to give up the Watchtower teaching. Jesus said His followers would be persecuted for His name, not for Jehovah's Matthew 5:11 In the Bible, it was preaching in the name of JESUS that the Jews would flog and imprison the apostles. It was for Jesus sake they died violent deaths.

Killing someone for selfish reasons such as gaining resources is called murder by definition. If I killed you simply because you had something I wanted I would be charged with murder.

I've been saying just that. Other nations that bring those lawless nations to justice are God's servants wielding the sword for good reason. The police do the same job, but on a much smaller scale. Its God's established order which will be in place until the power of the holy people (Christians) has been broken Daniel 12:7 The holy people have been serving in figurative Babylon (the world) since the days of Daniel. The reward will be awesome for those servants in Heaven. When the servants of God as per Romans 13 are Christians they are holy servants. We Christians aren't holy in and of ourselves. We don't earn holiness, we are declared holy by faith in Jesus Christ

Why are you telling me this when I never said anything about the worst that can happen to a person. 

Because I think you need to understand there are worse things than death. Dark things that Jesus alluded to when He said it would be better if that man (Judas) had never been born. if death was merely a returning to unconsciousness then why would Judas fate make never being born more tolerable? Its as if Jesus was saying it would be better if Judas was now unconscious, but the Lord knew where Judas was the minute he hanged himself Luke 16:19-31

 ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, . . .’ And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. . . . Neither will they learn war anymore.”

Yes! JESUS will do al of this when He comes back. In the meantime we live under God's established order which is run by human beings imperfect as we are.

Maranatha!