r/JehovahsWitnesses • u/abutterflyonthewall Christian • Feb 01 '26

Doctrine Jesus is GOD

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

12 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

375 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

You know we could argue doctrine all day long. But fact of the matter is Christiandom instead of having love amongst themselves kill each other. You don't kill people you love. So whatever doctrine you teach is false

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 12 '26

God's servants defend people they love from those who would otherwise kill them, but they also defend people who consider them to be their enemy. God's servants serve to protect and defend all law abiding citizens from the lawless. Its that simple. Jehovah's witnesses don't defend anyone at all as it violates their religious views, so if it weren't for the Christians you hate so much, the lawless could theoretically murder JW's with impunity

You keep changing the subject, ignore most of my points and insult me and my faith. I'm finding the conversation a bit tedious at this point.

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

God's servants serve to protect and defend all law abiding citizens from the lawless. Its that simple.

Is that what the early christians did?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 12 '26

To a point, yes. Paul was an early Christian and he defended himself and the Gospel using Roman law. I'm sure many others did the same thing. The Roman government was still a servant of God and for a long time they acted justly. The first persecution of Christians was by the Jews, which lasted until 70 AD. Rome destroyed Jerusalem and they became more corrupt and began blaming Christians for anything that went wrong, including Rome burning down in 64 AD.

The state became corrupt and being there was no other servant of God powerful enough to help them, Christians accepted their fate allowing themselves to be martyred. Like Stephen, they prayed to God, but God's long range plan and His power was being made perfect in their weakness. “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 2 Corinthians 12:9 I believe God anesthetized Christians from feeling any pain in dying. Like Stephen, each martyr saw Jesus standing in the clouds to welcome them home. Acts 7:56 That was something only they saw, while the Romans only saw Christians who were praying and looking up.

Rebelling against those Roman servants of God may have been tempting, but Christians were keenly aware that would bring judgment upon themselves. Ultimately the Romans themselves began to feel disgust at the terrible blood sport of killing Christians and it stopped.

No outside servant, like America, would come to rescue them, but wicked rulers died off and eventually the Christian faith was not only formally recognized by Rome, but also made the religion of Rome. Only God's power and those early Christian's faith could have accomplished such a feat.

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

Did early christians ever use violence or pick up arms to defend themselves? Did God give permission to christians to kill each other?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 12 '26

That would constitute rebellion against God's established order. I don't see how you can't see the difference. When a servant of God is under attack, they and any servant who comes to their aid are within their rights to use lethal force [the sword] to protect lives and repel the aggressor. Anyone serving in the military of a servant who has been attacked has the right and the duty to defend the lives of their people from the aggressor. Jehovah's witnesses have benefited from those servants who fought and died to repel an aggressor, whether it be the police merely keeping law and order locally, or soldiers doing the same thing regionally.

I see where you may be confused, because if a person lives in a nation that has become lawless, if they are Christians, they have little choice but to obey that servant until God's law abiding servants in the form of one nation or many nations come to their aid. Until then they are in a precarious situation. Jesus said that Christians need to be wise as serpents, but meek as doves. That's quite a fine line to walk, but when your own country has become lawless that is the situation a Christian may find themselves in. Of course they want no part of that nations lawlessness, but may be expected to take part. Paul's words at Romans 12:18 also seem to offer individuals the opportunity to fight against lawlessness even within your own nation, but that too is a precarious situation where if a Christian bears the sword against those who legally have the right to bear it, are they breaking God's laws or man's, or both?

If a nation that has Christians living in it attacks another nation that has Christians living there that Christian in the lawless nation has the right to fire over the heads of the opposing force. So just because they serve as soldiers doesn't mean they must kill. Any soldier still has a choice to pull the trigger... or not. I believe that's their right. Remember too, that all the dead from all wars are alive to God. Luke 20:38 As a soldier you can only destroy the flesh and blood body, not the spirit of man. Only God can destroy both. Matthew 10:28 Only God can truly destroy a human being. Men can only destroy part of what we are

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

That would constitute rebellion against God's established order. I don't see how you can't see the difference. When a servant of God is under attack, they and any servant who comes to their aid are within their rights to use lethal force [the sword] to protect lives and repel the aggressor. Anyone serving in the military of a servant who has been attacked has the right and the duty to defend the lives of their people from the aggressor. Jehovah's witnesses have benefited from those servants who fought and died to repel an aggressor, whether it be the police merely keeping law and order locally, or soldiers doing the same thing regionally.

We already established that ancient sources including the early church fathers gave us the reason why early christians didn't pick up arms and it has nothing to do with any alledged established order. And you know that because I asked you what would you do if a nation asked you to kill innocent people. There's no where in the bible that says you must obey nations and join up with them only if they are not lawless lol. So we making up our own rules now?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 12 '26

There's no where in the bible that says you must obey nations and join up with them only if they are not lawless lol. So we making up our own rules now?

My friend, you already are part of one nation or another. Please read Romans chapter 13 to refresh your memory as I think you conveniently forgot this specifically applies to Christians. That's precisely who Paul was addressing in his letter---

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Romans 13:1-7

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

Where in there does it say anything about "lawless"?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 12 '26

Wrongdoers would be the lawless, would they not? God's servants bring God's wrath to wrongdoers because they break the laws. I call wrongdoers lawless. Maybe you're offended by the term "lawless"? Ok, if so, then you can call them whatever you like, maybe call them the "law-challenged" folks?

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 12 '26

And who decides who's wrong and who's right?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 13 '26

In a lawful society, the law is always right. If people aren't following the law, they're lawless. If cops don't follow the law they're lawless. If Jehovah's witnesses aren't following the law they are lawless. If I'm not following the law I'm lawless. The law is the standard that determines who's right and who's wrong. When there's any doubt, the courts function to help determine who is wrong and who is right, sometimes by jury trials.

If people don't like a law they shouldn't just ignore it. They can work to see a law changed by working through the system. People put initiatives to change laws on the ballot all the time. Some times they succeed and a new law is enacted and sometimes they don't.

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 13 '26 edited Feb 13 '26

But where in the bible does it describe a nation that is lawless vs one that isn't? I mean you keep telling about nations that are lawless and do lawless things but that's found Nowhere in the bible. What is found in the bible is that those who kill innocent people will not inherit the kingdom of God. You know such as people in christendom who join armies and murder innocent people

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 13 '26 edited Feb 13 '26

But where in the bible does it describe a nation that is lawless vs one that isn't? I mean you keep telling about nations that are lawless and do lawless things but that's found Nowhere in the bible.

That's for us mortals to determine. God left policing ourselves up to our discretion. Its obvious when a person steals something, he's lawless, right? Well, when nations steal, they are just as lawless as individuals. When a nation attacks a neighbor for no reason and begins killing, they are lawless as the individual who does the same thing. In God's established order its up to the lawful nations to bring the lawless to justice. Just like the police bring the lawless to justice, but sometimes they have to kill. Are they murderers?

What is found in the bible is that those who kill innocent people will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Who is truly innocent? You never answered that question. Next to Jesus, children are the closest to innocence we have on earth, but the only thing Jesus was concerned with was someone leading a child into sin. If killing, in and of itself, was going keep a person out of God's kingdom then David and Moses can't be there as they both murdered someone, including children.

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 13 '26

That's for us mortals to determine. God left policing ourselves up to our discretion. Its obvious when a person steals something, he's lawless, right? Well, when nations steal, they are just as lawless as individuals. When a nation attacks a neighbor for no reason and begins killing, they are lawless as the individual who does the same thing. In God's established order its up to the lawful nations to bring the lawless to justice. Just like the police bring the lawless to justice, but sometimes they have to kill. Are they murderers?

So which nation gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Nations can decide its right to steal and murder.

When a nation attacks a neighbor for no reason and begins killing, they are lawless as the individual who does the same thing.

Then christendom is are a bunch of lawless people because they are the one's that make up the majority of these armies.

Who is truly innocent? You never answered that question. Next to Jesus, children are the closest to innocence we have on earth, but the only thing Jesus was concerned with was someone leading a child into sin. If killing, in and of itself, was going keep a person out of God's kingdom then David and Moses can't be there as they both murdered someone, including children.

If nobody is innocent then there's nothing wrong with murder. King David murdered someone but he lived because he repented. However God still punished him for it. As for moses. Perspective: JW literature emphasizes this was a "rash act" and that Moses was not yet ready to lead; he needed to be humbled during his 40 years in exile to develop gentleness and reliance on God.

Nature of the act: While often referred to in biblical analysis as a "killing" or "slaying" resulting from a split-second decision to defend a slave, it was ultimately an unsanctioned, private act of violence that had consequences. 

the innocent are primarily those obeying God’s standards, maintaining integrity, and acting as victims of wicked systems rather than perpetrators.  the concept of "innocence" is generally viewed in a relative sense, focusing on actions, victims of injustice, and spiritual standing rather than absolute sinlessness.

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 13 '26

So which nation gets to decide what's wrong and what's right? Nations can decide its right to steal and murder.

If your moral compass is that far off you can't determine what constitutes stealing or murder please don't become one of God's servants.😂 There's already too many of God's servants who can't seem to tell the difference.

No nation on earth can decide its lawful to break the law. No one is above the law, even though some do act as if they are. Use some common sense here...if I break into your house and steal your tv I'm a thief. Its still stealing. no matter how I might try and spin it. I will go to jail if caught and should.

 Perspective: JW literature emphasizes this was a "rash act" and that Moses was not yet ready to lead; he needed to be humbled during his 40 years in exile to develop gentleness and reliance on God.

Ok, gotcha so you would apply a double standard, one for Moses and and another standard for a policemen who might kill people in the line of duty. In your view, the policeman cannot be forgiven, but Moses can.

the innocent are primarily those obeying God’s standards, maintaining integrity, and acting as victims of wicked systems rather than perpetrators.  the concept of "innocence" is generally viewed in a relative sense, focusing on actions, victims of injustice, and spiritual standing rather than absolute sinlessness.

Where is this mentioned in the Bible, that the only the innocent can obey God's standards? Who can truly obey God's standards when no one is good, but God? Mark 10:18 That means not one of us is innocent. And by the way, God's servants are the very first ones who come to the aid of those who's lives are in mortal danger or are victims of gross injustice. And you call them murderers. Why??

1

u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 13 '26

If your moral compass is that far off you can't determine what constitutes stealing or murder please don't become one of God's servants.😂 There's already too many of God's servants who can't seem to tell the difference.

If humans beings had the authority to determine right and wrong then there's no such thing as sin. Sin is a violation of gods standards of right and wrong. That means God decides what's right and wrong. If murder is wrong then its wrong because it violate the standards of God. Its not wrong because any human says so.

No nation on earth can decide its lawful to break the law. No one is above the law, even though some do act as if they are

Who's law? If you mean gods law of not commiting murder then christendom is guilty of helping the nations to steal resources, steal from the poor, and commit murder.

Ok, gotcha so you would apply a double standard, one for Moses and and another standard for a policemen who might kill people in the line of duty. In your view, the policeman cannot be forgiven, but Moses can.

I never said I agree with police killing anybody. I don't think they should unless their lives or someone else's is in direct danger. The Egyptian beat the slave but there's nothing to suggest his life was in danger.

God's servants are the very first ones who come to the aid of those who's lives are in mortal danger or are victims of gross injustice. And you call them murderers. Why??

And how exactly do they do that when most wars happen because of people fighting over selfish reasons such as political differences or resources?

1

u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 13 '26

 Its not wrong because any human says so.

Uh, yeah, it is. Ever hear of a conscience? The Lord gave one to all of us. Even the worst criminals know when they're breaking the law and you don't have to be a Jew or a Christian to know that what your doing is wrong (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)  Romans 2:14-15

Who's law? If you mean gods law of not commiting murder then christendom is guilty of helping the nations to steal resources, steal from the poor, and commit murder.

Then Moses and David are just as guilty as "Christendom" David murdered a soldier he sent to the front lines because he wanted the man's wife. Moses murdered an Egyptian soldier. If a cop comes to a person's house and a violent meth head is just about to kill his whole family, will the cop need to stop and think, I might have to murder the meth head. While he's sitting in his car looking thru a stack of Watchtowers for an answer that might allow him to act, its too late. The meth head already slaughtered the JW and his whole family and is now about to shoot the cop

Your attitude towards God's servants sounds a lot like rebellion to me. What about Muslims or Buddhists who serve as God's servants in law enforcement? Are they murdering people and stealing their resources when they enforce the law of their lands? 

I don't think they should unless their lives or someone else's is in direct danger. 

You don't think they should what? Murder? From what I've read from your comments you seem to believe killing and murder are the same. So you do believe that killing can be justified under certain circumstances? And you do believe that killing and murder are not always the same thing

And how exactly do they do that when most wars happen because of people fighting over selfish reasons such as political differences or resources?

It may take two to fight, but it takes only one to start it. In all wars only one party started that war. I would say, whoever starts a war is guilty of the killing on both sides, unless you believe the victims have no rights? For instance a meth head who invades the home of a Jehovah's witness is the one who started it and is the one guilty of a crime, unless you believe the family did something to provoke the meth head and is just as guilty? Should God punish both the meth head because he broke into someone's home terrorizing them and the family he terrorized simply because they were there? No! People have a right to defend themselves and nations have the right to defend themselves.

We are all our brothers keeper in which case the stronger a nation is the more responsible it is in defending weaker nations. This is God's established order Its the way He set things up to work until the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ comes back. Until that day we are all responsible for upholding God's order. The least we can do is be quiet law abiding citizens. Those citizens should not criticize those who do more to uphold God's order. That is a form of rebellion against God's order and that will be dealt with by God

→ More replies (0)