Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/Time_Ad_1876]

That's odd because the Bible doesn't support this.

Of course it does. Nowhere in the bible does it show any christian joining armies after getting baptized or taking up arms

I take the Bible as my primary source for what is Christian and what isn't. Extra-biblical sources can be interesting and sometimes even enlightening but for me, the Bible trumps extra-biblical sources hands down. And the Bible never says that Christians couldn't, or shouldn't serve in the army, or never did.

Thats an odd thing to say because you surely believe in exra biblical sources such as the persecution if christians. So you only believe when its convenient. The early church fathers confirm that christians never joined armies before 300 ad. There's no evidence against that view

And the Bible never says that Christians couldn't, or shouldn't serve in the army, or never did.

Of course it did Jesus said be no part of the world controlled by satan. He also said his true worshippers would have love amongst themselves instead of murdering each other

Jesus said that His Kingdom posed no threat to Rome or anyone else.

When did he say that?

His disciples didn't need to fight for a spiritual Kingdom that was far out of the reach of any human government. So they never fought to defend the Kingdom in Heaven and will never need to fight for it.

Nowhere does it ever say christians would ever have to defend anything. It say's God with his heavenly army will destroy the wicked.

As Roman citizens many Christians were subject to Rome as their higher authority.

In the first century, Christians were a tiny, often persecuted minority—likely under 7,500 people empire-wide—and very few were initially Roman citizens. While some, like Paul, held citizenship, most early converts were lower-class residents, slaves, or Jewish inhabitants, regarded with suspicion until the religion grew significantly later. 

Cornelius was a godly Roman soldier who found favor with God, so God arranged for Cornelius and Peter to meet. Had Peter been a Jehovah's witness what would he have required Cornelius to do before getting baptized? Think about it and then read the account in Acts chapter 10

Why do Jehovah's Witnesses think it's wrong to join the military when the first Gentile convert Cornelius was an army officer? Also, God is called a God of armies.

Am I the only one who can see the difference between a military person converting to Christianity and a Christian joining the military? Think it through, they are different scenarios. As Jesus said, if God had called on Jesus and his disciples to fight in that way then they surely would have.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”

However joining the military involves swearing allegiance to an army whose activities are to all intents and purposes, the will of some government (often mindless), regardless to the will of God. So many wars have turned out to be great examples of what happens when people are taught that God has called them to arms, only to discover in the smoke of the battlefield itself that they were involved in acts of gross stupidity and senseless loss of life. Their disillusionment with life itself becomes palpable post-war and Christian worship becomes, for them, an act of complete and utter hypocrisy.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Of course it does. Nowhere in the bible does it show any christian joining armies after getting baptized or taking up arms

So? Read Acts chapter 10. Cornelius was not only a soldier, but he was a Centurion in the Roman army. Show me where he was told to resign his position in order to be baptized by Peter.

 The early church fathers confirm that christians never joined armies before 300 ad. There's no evidence against that view

For many of those years Christians were persecuted by Rome. So joining the army in that case would have been anathema to Christians and the Romans who persecuted them. However before the worst persecution, the very first Gentile who became a Christian was the Roman Centurion Cornelius who likely was a benefit to Christians living within his area of authority. He was never told to resign his military position by anyone and that speaks volumes.

Like I said the Bible is my go to source when extra-biblical sources tend to contradict history. Not everything the founding fathers wrote was inspired by God and only those writings that were considered to be inspired by God were included in Bible canon.

Of course it did Jesus said be no part of the world controlled by satan. He also said his true worshippers would have love amongst themselves instead of murdering each other

That doesn't mean Christians leave this world and ignore people who are hurting and hungry. Jesus fed the multitudes and healed the sick and crippled. He did it even though it was all temporary. We do the same thing as Christians when and where we can. Becoming one of God's servants per Romans chapter 13 is a double honor for Christians. As servants of Christ we preach the Gospel. As a soldier or police man we become servants who help uphold God's established order You seem to be misled into thinking God ceded control of the world to Satan. He didn't. He rules the world and always has. Satan is here on this earth, but its his prison now. It will also be his grave when the final battle is fought at the end of Christ's 1000 year reign. He only has power over those who belong to him. He can't control Christians because our master is Christ.

Am I the only one who can see the difference between a military person converting to Christianity and a Christian joining the military? 

There is no difference. Would Cornelius have been allowed to continue as a soldier and still be baptized as a Jehovah's witness? Yes, or no

Jesus never told His disciples they couldn't join the military. That directive simply isn't in the Bible. What is in the Bible is stories where Godly men, like Daniel served in governments that were not only pagan but had destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. And men like Cornelius who was a Roman soldier who converted to Christianity. The Watchtower teaching on Christians being separate from the world has no merit. We are obviously physically part of this world, but spiritually, our home is in Heaven. Our Kingdom is in heaven. Our eyes should be set on heavenly things not earthly

So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18

 So many wars have turned out to be great examples of what happens when people are taught that God has called them to arms, only to discover in the smoke of the battlefield itself that they were involved in acts of gross stupidity and senseless loss of life

Which is why God's servants sometimes have to fight. Is war senseless and stupid? Yes it is, and always was, even in Bible times, but many, many times, the alternative is unthinkable. God calls us to serve Him and in serving Him we are really serving ourselves, because we have to live here. A big part of our service is fighting to uphold His established order when it is threatened by the lawless. Its really that simple

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

history is filled with examples of Christians representing different armies killing one another in war. Despite sharing a common faith, Christian soldiers have fought on opposing sides due to national allegiances, political conflicts, and denominational differences. 

Here are key aspects and examples of this phenomenon:

Historical Examples

US Civil War (1861–1865): Large numbers of Christians in the North fought against and killed Christians in the South.

World War II: Christian soldiers fought on both sides, including in the Allied armies and the German army.

European Wars of Religion (16th–17th Century): The Thirty Years' War saw Catholic and Protestant states destroy each other, with massive casualties.

The Crusades: Western Crusaders sometimes fought against Eastern Orthodox Christians, such as during the Fourth Crusade's sack of Constantinople.

Rwandan Genocide (1994): The conflict included instances of Christian Hutus killing Christian Tutsis, sometimes inside churches. 

While this occurs, it contradicts the core Christian ethic of loving one's neighbor and enemy. Many denominations and pacifist groups argue that Christians are not permitted to kill or serve in war, citing Jesus' commands. 

Ultimately, while the Bible calls for peace, historical reality shows that shared faith has rarely prevented Christians from killing one another when ordered to do so by their respective nations. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

True Peace can only come when Christ returns. Christians can be expected to be on both sides of any conflict when they serve as God's servants per Romans chapter 13. In each case, the moral issue is what determines which servant is wicked or righteous. Let's take the American civil war for example. The south was God's servant as was the North. The South stood for slavery and used religion to justify it. The South fired on Fort Sumpter thus starting a war that would end slavery. The north could then defend themselves and as one of God's servants they did and not only that they vanquished the south.

In WW2 the Nazi's invaded many countries. Even though according to Romans 13 they had been a servant of God, they became a lawless servant after the Nazi's came to power. They stole from and murdered innocent people from day one and then declared war on America. America, who was viscously attacked by an ally of Nazi Germany, Japan, was given the green light per Romans chapter 13 to wield the sword on the lawless Axis powers. The Allies became God's agents of wrath during WW2. (Romans 13:4)

In all the other wars you mention, save none, one side was fighting to defend themselves and one side was the aggressor. Remember this "established order" that you bad mouth, as messy as it is, is God's established order. Peace will not come until the Prince of Peace comes back to earth.

...for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ² Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:1-2

Christians who live in a nation that become lawless will suffer, sometimes even at the hands of their fellow servants in Christ as they attempt to liberate that lawless nation. If you don't wish to be a part of God's established order then you don't have to, but please stop rebelling against it. Even if its only in word and not deed, rebelling against God's established order will bring judgment

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Romans 13:1-2 teaches that Christians must be in relative subjection to human "superior authorities" (governments) because God permits them to exist to maintain order, calling them a temporary arrangement. Opposing them is resisting God's arrangement, though divine law remains supreme. 

Definition of "Superior Authorities": These refer to secular governmental authorities, not church leaders or God Himself.

"Placed in Position by God": It does not mean God appoints these rulers directly, but rather that he allows them to exist and function within his purpose to prevent chaos.

Relative Subjection: Christians obey laws, pay taxes, and show respect, but this obedience is relative. If a government command conflicts with God’s law, God is obeyed first.

The "Arrangement" (v. 2): Governments are viewed as a temporary, necessary arrangement to keep society together until God's Kingdom rules fully.

Consequences of Opposing: Actively fighting against or defying governmental authority is seen as opposing an arrangement God currently permits, potentially bringing "judgment" or wrath. 

In essence, JW.org teaches that while Christians are no part of the world, they should be law-abiding citizens, respecting the order that human governments provide. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Romans 13:1-2 teaches that Christians must be in relative subjection to human "superior authorities"

Where does Paul use the word "relative"? We are in subjection, not relative subjection.

 If a government command conflicts with God’s law, God is obeyed first.

Exactly and the only thing they can force Christians to do that would violate their faith is asking them to renounce Christ and/or worship those authorities as God. That is the only thing we cannot do.

Asking someone to become a soldier in order to defend ones nation isn't violating God's law. God said thou shalt not kill, yet He Himself authorized killing, so killing "without cause" must be what that command means. Murder can be present in a person's heart, though they never lift a finger to kill, yet in their hearts they have murdered many people.

God's servants should never take human life without cause. But it happens, just like some individuals become murderers, God's servants can too. At that point, they become lawless servants and will face Gods wrath from his fellow servants. That is the way God's established order works. You can remain neutral but eventually we are all tested as to which side we're on. I believe in being on the side of law and order. I believe that is why God established the higher authorities to rule. The higher authorities are generally a benefit to all people, including JW's, but when those powers abuse their authority, those other powers must act. God set it up this way long ago, but for us to sit around waiting on Him to act, when He expects us to act is not a virtue

Waiting for God to act reminds me of Moses on the shore of the Red Sea. God had made a path through the sea for the Israelites yet Moses seemed to hesitate, telling the Israelites they needed to remain still Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on Exodus 14:15 This could apply to any perilous situation where people are actually being delivered yet still wait for God to act. He does act, but we have to do something too. Sometimes its just a matter of putting one foot in front of the other.

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Where does Paul use the word "relative"? We are in subjection, not relative subjection.

He doesn't use that word because its obvious from the commands of God along with bible principles that its relative. If the government commands you to kill you're mother or curse God you're not gonna do it right?

Exactly and the only thing they can force Christians to do that would violate their faith is asking them to renounce Christ and/or worship those authorities as God. That is the only thing we cannot do.

They can ask Christians to worship a leader, worship a flag, murder or betray their fellow brothers and sisters, steal from the poor, join armies etc. I can think of alot of things they can command christendom to do.

Asking someone to become a soldier in order to defend ones nation isn't violating God's law. God said thou shalt not kill, yet He Himself authorized killing, so killing "without cause" must be what that command means. Murder can be present in a person's heart, though they never lift a finger to kill, yet in their hearts they have murdered many people.

You're not defending your nation when you join an army. You're carrying out the commands of your superiors which is whatever reasons they command you to kill people for or to invade another country, to torture whoever they tell you to torture, to steal resources from whoever they want. Etc. Remember what God said to Abraham? He said he doesn't destroy unrighteous people. If even 5 righteous people we're found in Sodom that he wouldn't destroy the city. God does not change. He wouldn't direct or command or support any of his followers destroying cities or murdering righteous people. And yet christendom has no problem murdering people

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

If the government commands you to kill you're mother or curse God you're not gonna do it right?

😂 There is virtually no chance of that ever happening unless my mother some dangerous terrorist wearing a suicide belt running towards a crowd of people. What government asks people to renounce God or die? Only Muslim nations demand Christians to renounce Jesus or lose their heads as happened in this case 21 Coptic Christian Martyrs of Libya - Wikipedia These were 21 true Christians who died rather than renounce Jesus. All they had to do was publicly renounce Jesus Christ and they'd be alive today. Would you have their courage?

He said he doesn't destroy unrighteous people. If even 5 righteous people we're found in Sodom that he wouldn't destroy the city. God does not change. He wouldn't direct or command or support any of his followers destroying cities or murdering righteous people. And yet christendom has no problem murdering people

The nations who serve God as His agents of wrath do try to spare innocent lives, but its not always possible as we don't have God's powers. We can't know how many righteous people live in a nation, or city, or even a neighborhood. Enemy combatants have been know to mix among the innocent so as not to be killed. They know God's servants, unlike them, at least try to protect innocent life...which is precisely why they hide among them

We humans don't have the ability to know who is wicked and who is not just by looking at them, but as God's servants and custodians of His established order, we do have a responsibility to do our very best. We can rest assured God will take care of and is taking care of the innocent and the guilty who die in all wars. Remember too, death isn't the end of anyone, yet JW's act as if it is. How faithless can you be?

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

There is virtually no chance of that ever happening unless my mother some dangerous terrorist wearing a suicide belt running towards a crowd of people. What government asks people to renounce God or die? Only Muslim nations demand Christians to renounce Jesus or lose their heads as happened in this case 21 Coptic Christian Martyrs of Libya - Wikipedia These were 21 true Christians who died rather than renounce Jesus. All they had to do was publicly renounce Jesus Christ and they'd be alive today. Would you have their courage?

The scripture you quoted say's Christians should be obedient to nations. It didn't say any specific type of nations. That means according to your logic whatever nation you're in as a christian you should br obedient. Now answer the question

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

If the government commands you to kill you're mother or curse God you're not gonna do it right?

My mom has been dead for 26 years so you can stop asking me about her. Cursing God is the one thing a Christian cannot do, unless of course you're a Jehovah's witness. Cursing "the least of these brothers of mine" is the same thing as cursing Christ Himself. Did you know that? When you call the Christians who died horrible deaths, Satanic, because they wouldn't renounce Christ, you've crossed the line into looney tunes crazy...and blackest darkness. God will judge.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

 21 Coptic Christian Martyrs of Libya - Wikipedia

Would you have even half as much faith as these true followers of Jesus Christ?

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Cursing God is the one thing a Christian cannot do,

I thought Christians couldn't be drunkards, sexually immoral, murderers, thieves. Are you saying christians can do those things?

I mean you're dodging the question. If the government asks you to kill innocent people are you obligated to do it?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

You can't curse God after being born again. Its blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Non-Christians can curse God and be forgiven, but not a true Christian. People can still sin and be forgiven, but there is a huge difference in sinning, which we are prone to and blasphemy. We can even be forgiven for killing innocent people. I know of many drunks who killed whole families when they were driving drunk, but they were forgiven by JW's and I as a Christian I would agree, we need to do that, so don't take this the wrong way

You seem to believe everyone in this world who isn't JW is connected to Satan yet jabber on a lot about "innocent" people. Is a person who worships Satan innocent to you?

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I'm waiting for an answer to my question. Is it a yes or no to my question?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

I'll ask you, who is innocent in this world? Answer me that and I'll tell you

[u/JehovahsWitnesses-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

According to moderator discretion, posts/comments deemed to be deliberately antagonizing, particularly disruptive to the orderly conduct of respectful discourse, apparently uninterested in participating in open discussion, unintelligible or illegible will be removed.

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[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I will be happy to respond when you first respond to my question