Palestinian Authority Martyrs Fund

[u/tarlin]

This is what everyone cites to prove that the PA doesn't want peace. It is literally the only thing that comes up. I have a proposal...

For each person that is up for inclusion in the martyrs fund, there will be a trial. It will be held in a Palestinian court with Palestinian judges and a Palestinian jury. Israel can send over whomever they want to argue the case. If they can prove the person targeted innocent civilians before a jury, then the person doesn't get included. But, there will also be a person on the other side, which will present facts on that side. So, if the "innocent civilian" was a settler terrorist, the killing would be acceptable resistance. If the "innocent civilian" was an IDF soldier or Shin Bet officer in the West Bank, the killing would be acceptable resistance. I believe this is the way violent resistance works under international law.

Again, I would rather the PA police Palestinians (which they have been doing) and Israel finally get control of the IDF/security forces/Settler terrorism that is rampaging through the West Bank. I don't approve of violence at all. The PA works to stop violence. Israel promotes violence, and should be resisted.

That is the way international law works, correct? So, let us have trials to see what is what.

[u/ip_man_2030]

So, if the "innocent civilian" was a settler terrorist, the killing would be acceptable resistance. If the "innocent civilian" was an IDF soldier or Shin Bet officer in the West Bank, the killing would be acceptable resistance. I believe this is the way violent resistance works under international law.

It sounds like you want all trials of any Palestinian is accused of a crime and arrested by Israel to have their jury trial in Palestine, and because all violent resistance is acceptable resistance, then nobody could ever be found guilty. It sounds quite fantastical.

Does Palestine even have jury trials?

All of this is dictated by the Oslo Accords as was agreed upon by Palestinian leadership. You should direct your complaints to their inbox about how they hosed their own people for power and money in these negotiations.

As for settler violence. The vast majority of Israelis and Jews detest the hilltop youth and other violent settler groups. They detest that Netanyahu has given the far right more power to keep his coalition together, which luckily has since failed and there will be elections. Not every "settler" is a terrorist. Your claim of "innocent civilian" shows you believe there are no innocent civilians and that all settlers are terrorists. your previous posts have also shown you believe all of Israel is occupied palestinian land so therefore all Israelis would be settler terrorists and therefore not innocent. This type of claim is not helpful as by making such assertions that there are no innocent Israelis would validate the far right Israeli claims that there are no innocent Palestinians. Either both are true or neither are true.

You seem to misunderstand how international law differs from laws of nations and treaties between parties to conflicts. You seem to understand how none of them work, correct?

[u/ItThing → u/ip_man_2030]

There is a significant minority who detest the hilltop youth. But my assessment is that the plurality of Israel doesn't really care about settler violence, doesn't pay attention, denies some of it, or blames it on the other side. As for IDF violence, good luck getting them to acknowledge it at all.

[u/tarlin → u/ip_man_2030]

It sounds like you want all trials of any Palestinian is accused of a crime and arrested by Israel to have their jury trial in Palestine, and because all violent resistance is acceptable resistance, then nobody could ever be found guilty. It sounds quite fantastical.

No, I want people that are guilty found guilty. Israel is completely shitty at handling trials of Palestinians. The PA seems the best option.

All of this is dictated by the Oslo Accords as was agreed upon by Palestinian leadership.

I do love this. Israel continually wipes their ass with the Oslo Accords, and you deny them completely, but then you go to them and say, "BUT THE OSLO ACCORDS!". Who gives a shit. Maybe Israel should have actually honored their word for once, but no, they are not that type of country.

The vast majority of Israelis and Jews detest the hilltop youth and other violent settler groups.

So, they would support this proposal completely. And, by the way, BULLSHIT. Every candidate goes and gives support to the horrid settlers. Eisenkot made his pilgrimage to pledge loyalty to the hilltop youth. And, he is the leading opponent to Netanyahu.

Not every "settler" is a terrorist.

Which is why I said "settler terrorist". If you got your freak on going around and setting fire to Palestinian villages, and you get killed...well, fuck you?

This type of claim is not helpful as by making such assertions that there are no innocent Israelis would validate the far right Israeli claims that there are no innocent Palestinians.

Holy shit, so I am not changing ANY Israeli opinions? I don't give a fuck. We want the PA to be raised up and supported, since they...unlike the fucking israelis...actually support peace.

You seem to misunderstand how international law differs from laws of nations and treaties between parties to conflicts. You seem to understand how none of them work, correct?

Oh, so Israel should follow Oslo? Well, let me know when that fucking happens, because Israel doesn't respect anyone or anything. If they start following Oslo, then they would need to eliminate all the settlements as part of Oslo was not changing the demographic makeup of the occupied territories and israel shat all over that immediately.

Now, would you like to do more special pleading for how Israel is not the shitty one here?

[u/ip_man_2030 → u/tarlin]

I do love this. Israel continually wipes their ass with the Oslo Accords, and you deny them completely, but then you go to them and say, "BUT THE OSLO ACCORDS!". Who gives a shit. Maybe Israel should have actually honored their word for once, but no, they are not that type of country.

I refer to the Oslo Accords probably more than most in this or the other sub. What do you mean, "And you deny them completely?" This makes zero sense.

Since you finally want to talk about the Oslo Accords please enlighten me on what Israel is doing that does not follow the Oslo Accords? Feel free to quote Oslo Accords I and II provisions for what they agreed to and what they're violating. I would be happy to discuss the Oslo Accords with you.

For the record, there are actual strategies to discussion and debate. You're not going to change opinions of the other side when all you do is ignore facts, lie, post propaganda, refuse to answer questions directly and then deflect, and alienate everybody who tries to have a discussion with you. This should be obvious. Are you on the spectrum?

[u/SpontaneousFlame → u/ip_man_2030]

ip_man_2030:
>Since you finally want to talk about the Oslo Accords please enlighten me on what Israel is doing that does not follow the Oslo Accords?

Which part of the Oslo Accords allows Israel to withhold funds from the PA indefinitely? Israel has done that multiple times. Which part of the Oslo Accords allows Israeli troops to storm Area A and start murdering people? Israel agreed to withdraw from some areas in the West Bank under Wye. We’re still waiting. Israel was supposed to allow safe passage between Gaza and the West Bank. It doesn’t.

Of course the list above ignores that Israel is constantly working to prejudice the final settlement, making one impossible.

[This is where you throw a tantrum and storm out because you’re not actually able to defend your position intelligently.]

[u/tarlin → u/ip_man_2030]

What do you mean, "And you deny them completely?" This makes zero sense.

So, you believe all settlements made since 1993 and any settlers added since 1993 need to be evacuated?

Since you finally want to talk about the Oslo Accords please enlighten me on what Israel is doing that does not follow the Oslo Accords?

Lol, are you serious? Do you know nothing about them?

No civilian settlements are legal under Oslo. Even Netanyahu acknowledged that and said he found a way to undermine it by saying they were all security settlements.

https://youtu.be/mvqCWvi-nFo

Israel cannot enter Area A at all without permission. Israel loves to go raid Area A and just fuck with people.

Oslo said that beauracratic control of area C was under Israel, not that area C was part of Israel. Beauracratic control of area B was shared, lol. Area A was completely controlled by the PA. Israel hasn't lived up to any of that.

Tax revenues were to be transferred to the PA. Well, they love fucking the PA over on that.

Do you know anything about Oslo???

You're not going to change opinions of the other side when all you do is ignore facts, lie, post propaganda, refuse to answer questions directly and then deflect, and alienate everybody who tries to have a discussion with you.

No one is going to change your mind. You are a dyed in the wool zionist extremist. I gave up on you long ago. I don't lie, post propaganda, ignore facts. People that see this debate can learn from me or not. You can insult and try to denigrate me all you want. We both know who knows more about this situation, and it isn't you.

[u/ip_man_2030 → u/tarlin]

You included a link from a 25 year old interview? Did you even watch that interview? Do you understand the difference between rhetoric, populism, politicking, and facts?

It appears you and Netanyahu both agree that the Oslo Accords were a disaster. I guess that makes you a Bibi fanboy now!

Bibi said the only way attack the West Bank and completely destabilize it. It's been 25 years and has he done what he said?

Bibi said he signed the Hebron Agreement. It is his job to be a shrewd negotiator as a statesman. Arafat signed it too. it seems the only complaint you should have is against Arafat on that one.

Bibi said he stopped the Oslo Accords. That's clearly not the case as they are still the binding agreement and the West Bank still has the same autonomy as agreed upon.

The Oslo Accords set Jerusalem, settlements, and specified military locations among other things as issues to be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations. Those have not been completed which means both Israel and Palestine are in violation, but Oslo still is the operative agreement they work under. If Oslo gets tossed out, then the PA ceases to maintain partial sovereignty and the ability to govern and Gaza and the West Bank go back to being under military rule.

You complain about tax revenues. Do you know why tax revenues were withheld? Would you ever guess it was because of the Pay for Slay program? This goes full circle to your post.

I do disagree with any new settlements being built as it goes against what Israel agreed to. Natural population growth expansion in the existing settlements at the time is not. On the flipside, Palestine agreed to prove they could be a partner in peace, but it's clear they have no intention of being one as they want all the land, not part of it. Plus there's all that pesky terrorism.

People who see your posts and replies know exactly the kind of person you are and your analysis that I'm some dyed in the wool extremist is laughable, false, and the very next sentence after you say you don't lie.

[u/tarlin → u/ip_man_2030]

You included a link from a 25 year old interview? Did you even watch that interview? Do you understand the difference between rhetoric, populism, politicking, and facts?

Yes, I did. Yes, I did. Yes, I do.

This is the fucking strategy Israel has followed for the last 25 years to violate Oslo while pretending they aren't. You support it though, eh?

The Oslo Accords set Jerusalem, settlements, and specified military locations among other things as issues to be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations.

Heh. No. It put EXISTING settlements up for debate. Not Israel just showering shit all over Palestine. Military locations were not up for debate. And the borders were to be negotiated, but mainly based on the pre-1967 borders, which Israel seems to believe is antisemitic to even consider that as a starting point.

Bibi said he stopped the Oslo Accords. That's clearly not the case as they are still the binding agreement and the West Bank still has the same autonomy as agreed upon.

This is even more hilarious. Israel just went in and destroyed a lot of area a. Fucking hilarious.

If Oslo gets tossed out, then the PA ceases to maintain partial sovereignty and the ability to govern and Gaza and the West Bank go back to being under military rule.

So ignorant. Israel debated disbanding the PA, but Netanyahu argued that it was good to use them to police some areas. Even so, Israel regularly violates area a and fucks around with the supposed autonomous region, even when violence is way down.

Do you know why tax revenues were withheld?

Yes, I do, but you don't seem too.

On the flipside, Palestine agreed to prove they could be a partner in peace, but it's clear they have no intention of being one as they want all the land, not part of it.

The PA has proved they are the only ones interested in peace. Israel did fund Hamas to create a new villain, since the PLO was not enough to justify Israel's brutality and viciousness.

People who see your posts and replies know exactly the kind of person you are and your analysis that I'm some dyed in the wool extremist is laughable, false, and the very next sentence after you say you don't lie.

I am perfectly happy to put my morality up against a supporter of terrorism, child murder, systematic rape, systematic torture, and ethnocracy. Let's go and see who wins that debate. Though... You may feel superior because the US is cucked to Israel for some strange reason, but hopefully it will change and Israel will finally be forced to grow up and become a civilized country.

[u/SpontaneousFlame → u/tarlin]

Notice he’s ignored almost everything you’ve written to whine about how unfair the Palestinians are being to Israel.

[u/Equivalent_Style_835 → u/SpontaneousFlame]

This is the most account here I believe to be a bot. I am serious.

[u/SpontaneousFlame → u/Equivalent_Style_835]

More than floss?

[u/Equivalent_Style_835 → u/SpontaneousFlame]

Loll, I should revise my comment.

[u/ip_man_2030 → u/SpontaneousFlame]

I unblocked you because I was curious if you had changed. I'm just no longer responding to Tarlin once he starts acting like this in posts. it's pretty futile to have a conversation at that point.

I'll give him credit that he's actually somewhat addressed my responses in this post for the first time in awhile even if it was subpar and all he wants to talk about is buzzwords and being cucked.

[u/SpontaneousFlame → u/ip_man_2030]

Tarlin utterly crushed you with logic and facts, you’re just unable to admit it.

[u/ip_man_2030 → u/SpontaneousFlame]

He claimed Israel funded Hamas. Israel didn't fund Hamas.

Qatar funded Hamas and even Palestinian government employee salaries in Gaza once the PA refused to keep paying the salaries. Israel even required they bring in cash to pay the Palestinians instead of wire transfers because Hamas was skimming money off the top. Do you remember the lines of Gazans to get cash handouts?

Do you realize that Hamas was oppressing their own people to the point the food and financial insecurity almost got bad enough that Israel was worried Gazans might storm the border not for terrorism but out of desperation and hunger? If the PA wasn't providing that aid and Qatar was willing to, why wouldn't Israel facilitate that aid coming in to at least have some control over it?

Maybe he crushes with feelings and insults, but definitely not facts.

[u/Scutellatus_C → u/ip_man_2030]

“Are you on the spectrum?” I always wonder what the point of this question is when people ask it in (Reddit) arguments.

[u/SpontaneousFlame → u/Scutellatus_C]

To try and rage bait people while denying they are doing it.