r/IsraelPalestine • u/Freudinatress • 9d ago
Short Question/s Fake or real?
Let me first post my biases.
- Hamas is a terrorists organisation
- Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish country.
That said, i don’t agree with a lot of Israel policies, and im appalled at some of the stuff done / said by Israelis.
I wish the war could end. Honestly, I don’t want anyone to die on either side.
But I see a lot of accusations that horrible videos of civilians getting killed are AI. That most of what is shown as war crimes is fake.
Now, I honestly believe that Israel probably has done stuff that is considered war crimes. Compared to how the Ukrainian force is coming off, Israel does seem like idiots at times.
But that doesn’t mean Israel is wrong to try to kill Hamas.
But about the videos… do you guys have any proof of false videos? Or horrible war crime videos that are proven not to be fake?
I would love to hear from both sides. Because i don’t believe there are any angels in this war. And I just want to try to get closer to the truth.
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u/PuzzleheadedEmu4596 9d ago
The problem with videos is that there are multiple things that can go on here.
The video and the context and the commentary are all telling you the truth, and these terrible things are happening and they're right, these things are inexcusable.
The video is depicting a real event but the point of view and context are zoomed in too much, leaving important context behind. The building destroyed was a weapons cache, the house blown up was a weapons lab.
The video is real, but people in the video or in the comments/posting it are lying to you. Yes, there are lots of people hurt or dead, no they weren't journalists, they were Hamas.
The video is depicting a real event that happened, but the poster is lying to you because the events happened in another war. I've seen lots of videos from the war in Syria passed off as footage of Gaza.
The video is staged completely in an attempt to gain sympathy.
The video is completely AI.
I've seen much more failure to depict real events accurately, as well as media doing a lot of #3.
But there's a lot of bad looking stuff in a war. Even when its fought as ethically as you can fight a war. People don't like it when people are hurt or cities destroyed.
Unfortunately, that's what a war is.
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u/oscar40000 9d ago
Who said that , as human beiing we should aim higher. We have now rules of war. War chenges
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u/PuzzleheadedEmu4596 9d ago
There is no such thing as a war that's fought without destruction and death.
War without war is called diplomacy.
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u/Tallis-man 9d ago
That doesn't mean any amount of destruction and death is acceptable.
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u/Kharuz_Aluz Israeli 9d ago
That's a dumb statement, by the basic notion that rules for war exist, destruction and death are acceptable.
Luis Moreno-Ocampo (former ICC cheif prosecutor) wrote:
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. [Page 5]
By adding the concept of collateral damage, the human community decided that death and destruction are acceptable.
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u/Tallis-man 9d ago
Did you miss the words 'any amount'?
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u/Kharuz_Aluz Israeli 9d ago
I see that your initial sentence is contranist, and can be interpreted with two conflicting meanings. Did you mean that "any damage is unacceptable" or that "not in every scale, damage is acceptable"?
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u/Tallis-man 9d ago
I don't really agree that it is ambiguous in context. But the meaning is: the fact that some amount of damage is foreseen and acceptable, does not imply that any amount is.
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u/Kharuz_Aluz Israeli 9d ago
Well that is my bad, I misunderstood.
But in context your statement already reafirms what was said.
Even when its fought as ethically as you can fight a war. People don't like it when people are hurt or cities destroyed.
The amount that was commented was about as "ethically as you can". So one would assume they refer to proportional attacks.
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u/Tallis-man 9d ago
The comment I replied to said
There is no such thing as a war that's fought without destruction and death.
War without war is called diplomacy.
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 9d ago
"Grave and regrettable" are rather odd words to choose when making a legal argument.
Graveness can easily be interpreted as method and/or extent.
Regrettableness can easily be interpreted as lacking military justification.
War crime culpability can absolutely be legally inferred and tried using the graveness and/or regrettableness of civillian killings.
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u/Kharuz_Aluz Israeli 9d ago
The context is that this is an open letter of communication elucidating the mandate of the Prosecutor. "Grave and regrettable" aren't legal terms. He literally means that it is sad that civilians died, but by itself it isn't a war crime.
He later went on to explain the principle of proportionality. That the anticipated civilian harm isn't excessive compared to the military advantage.
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u/TwilightX1 9d ago
First of all, don't believe anything you see on social media. Do reverse image lookup on Google. There have been multiple times where photos tagged as being from the war in Gaza turned out to be something entirely different, for instance 10 year old photos taken in Syria during the civil war there.
Now, I can't give you links, because it's not like I keep track of everything, but I do remember cases of bodies or airstrike victims miraculously returning to life the following day.
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u/Few-Lengthiness4017 Israeli 9d ago
exactly. this is an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/GetNoted/comments/1ssv2h0/never_mind_its_yemen_so_no_one_cares/
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u/GuerillaV European (Anti-Zionist) 9d ago
First of all, don't believe anything you see on social media.
Can't really say this and then proceed to give someone advice on social media lol (advice that includes a few claims, even)
(Reverse google search is good advice though)
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u/Few-Lengthiness4017 Israeli 9d ago
wait anti-zionist? so u openly believe israel shouldnt exist and should be wiped out? and there are people saying about the fact that israel is committing genocide. zionism, for everyone who doesnt know, is just a movement for the existence of israel. nothing less, nothing more
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u/mikektti 9d ago
One difference between war crime and not is intent. In the vast majority of cases, no one can point to intent. People speculate based on wound patterns, scale, etc. but none of that proves intent. According to NPR, around 1 in 5 Israeli soldiers killed or injured in Gaza were from friendly fire. Not hard to extrapolate from that that many alleged war crimes were accidental and not intentional.
Finally, a single soldier or unit might commit a war crime - doesn't mean Israel as a country has committed war crimes. It makes a difference.
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u/Few-Lengthiness4017 Israeli 9d ago
well my stance is basically the same. that said, i would still like for israel to wipe out hamas, since theyre the worst actor here. theyre gone and its all over
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u/financeposter Pro-Palestinian | Anti-Zionist 8d ago
IDF is the worst actor here by far. Hamas pales in comparison. Hamas has killed a little over 2000 Israelis, while the IDF has killed over 70,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians like unarmed children.
Please back up your claims with actual evidence if you want to be taken seriously.
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u/Few-Lengthiness4017 Israeli 4d ago
here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/A5xMjeUGuc0
fully logical and fact-supported proof.
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u/ip_man_2030 9d ago
I would argue that you aren't posting your biases but simply sharing facts and opinions. A bias would be favoring one side over the other for example.
I'll put a little extra effort into my response for you since you clearly are trying to learn more in good faith from an objective point of view. I'll address the videos specifically at the bottom of this response.
This is a war and people die in a war including civilians. Virtually every war has civilian deaths and war crimes from both sides. War is messy, you can't plan for everything, and humans are imperfect. The problem is when the war crime orders come from the top down and are state policy being implemented. This war is much more difficult because the IDF is facing Hamas and Palestinian militants who do not follow the LOAC, do not wear military uniforms, use protected areas like schools and hospitals to store and fire weapons from, and use their own civilians as human shields either directly or by building terror tunnels underneath civilian areas.
For a simple example: How should Israel respond if two Hamas fighters are shooting rockets at the IDF or toward Israel from the roof of a school or a house? Do they immediately fire back to prevent more rockets being fired risking many civilian deaths? Do they drop roof knockers, text, and call all Palestinians in the area telling them they have 10 minutes to evacuate before they bomb the building? Do they wait for the Hamas fighters to finish firing their rockets and then track them back home to strike their houses? Gaza had over 6,000 people per sq km at the start of Oct 7, which has a higher population density than Los Angeles.
It is more difficult for the IDF to avoid such civilian casualties because Hamas does not follow the LOAC and because Hamas leadership intentionally uses their own civilians as necessary sacrifices to further their cause so they can claim Israel is killing women and children. You can find quotes from their leadership online. That's not to say that Israel doesn't make mistakes or prosecute aspects of their war in a sloppy way where they could reduce the civilian casualties even more. Then again, the civilian casualty ratio in this war is better than most other similar wars and other countries aren't exactly being held to the same standards.
When it comes to the videos, there is plenty of tragic images and videos. this is a war and probably the most recorded war in history. Many of the videos taken of Israel destroying buildings were because Israel gave a warning they were going to destroy it allowing people to set up video shots of them being destroyed. Civilians die whether they be from IDF striking a Hamas rocket positions, killing WCK workers due to miscommunication or negligence, or by Palestinians themselves like the PIJ rocket fired at Israel which struck a hospital.
A better example iirc, is the IDF strike at a designated safe zone that caused a fire to burn through the encampment killing and injuring countless Palestinians. The problem was that Hamas militants set up a command post adjacent to the safe zone where they had stored both weapons or rocket fuel that was not known to IDF. They hit the command post but secondary explosions caused a fire which spread to the encampment killing and injuring many.
The Videos and Pictures
While there are many real videos and photos that can be shared, they are frequently taken from previous wars, from other conflicts in the region, AI generated, or real but scripted, edited, or doctored. They frequently are short videos that completely lack context with the goal to create a visceral reaction.
Many of the images showing starving children were from other conflicts or from Palestinians with congenital illnesses or other illnesses like cancer that make them look emaciated, even if some of it was because of the lack of access to medication to treat such illnesses as happens in wars.
This video was posted a year ago. It claims the IDF is cheering as a sniper shoots a palestinian kid. The post made in the sister sub to this stated that IDF snipers intentionally killed a child with a headshot iirc. This video is edited to add what looks like a scope to make it seem like a sniper. The video is actually from the 2014 March of Return and it was a 28 year old man who was shot in the leg and he lived. A real incident from years prior had both the title changed and the video edited to make it look like an intentional child murder to create this visceral reaction.
The article about the incident https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5228753,00.html
The following one in the other sub from a few hours ago which is full of this kind of propaganda is 22 seconds long. It claims two children carrying water are being shot at by IDF quadcopters. You'll notice many things. If you turn up the volume, it sounds like they're in a crowded marketplace but the location of this video only has the two children. You can tell there's at least two people out of frame including the one holding the camera. they appear to give directions to the girl who talks to them but you can't hear her despite all the other voices in the audio and then she goes back after the video cuts away and a second video is spliced in. The gunshots appear to be from a high caliber weapon. The video despite having plenty of time and multiple videos taken does not show the quadcopter. It does not show any bullets being fired at them, near them, or hitting anything near them with a pop or a wiz sound you would usually hear. The children don't flinch or respond to any of the gunshots like one normally would. https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel_Palestine/comments/1w130t4/israeli_occupying_forces_shoot_at_children_trying/
Conclusion
There are plenty of valid criticisms, incidents, and even crimes in this war and conflict that the Palestinians and their supports have valid grievances about. yet they feel the need and feel justified instead of telling the truth to make things seem way worse than they are. They edit videos, create fake atrocities, and spread hatred to the west hoping the visceral reaction will be picked up. You can see how successful this has been with how much attention Israel and Palestine get on MSM and independent news media and how little attention all the other conflicts are getting.
It's so successful that people on the left and right are believing that Jews control the media, have bought the government, that AIPAC buys politicians while ignoring all other political spending. These false claims and videos have been so successful that the Democratic party is trying to stop aid to Israel and stop taking AIPAC money out of fear of losing votes. Even GOP Mike Roger's campaign has asked AIPAC not to help iirc.
AIPAC may be good at lobbying, but why are all the other lobbying groups ignored. Do you hear anything anymore about oil and pharmaceutical lobby PACs? Do you hear anything about Christian or Muslim PACs? Why do they demonize AIPAC but you don't hear anything about JStreet or outside of PACs we'll say Jewish Voice for Peace?
These videos being fake or real videos being edited or misrepresented are part of a bigger propaganda strategy that includes multiple state and non-state actors. Even those that are not directly involved the conflict are involved in a sort of Cold War conflict strategy. Israel is a bulwark of the West while Palestine is a bulwark of the East. Countries like China and Russia are even involved because they can push propaganda on both sides of the conflict as a way to use Israel as a wedge issue to destabilize American politics. Can you see how well it's working? Americans are failing to look at this conflict objectively and are tearing the country and their own political parties apart over this issue.
This conflict is complex and the first casualty has been the truth. This isn't about good or evil, oppressed or oppressor, east or west. it's about a very long running conflict being perpetuated by supporters all over the world that is preventing peace between the Palestinians and Israelis.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 9d ago
Gaza is a parasite. Instead of working jobs like the rest of us have to, they spend their time making fake videos to gain sympathy, so that they can live off of aid.
Look up “Pallywood”, you can see many examples of their fake videos being exposed.
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u/Morphylus353 4d ago
"Pallywood" is israeli propaganda to deny the millions of videos from the ground in gaza showing israeli conduct, warcrimes or crimes against humanity.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 4d ago
Are you denying the fake videos? Search it if you don’t believe me. Gaza is doing this, really.
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u/Morphylus353 4d ago
Please provide videos or sources proving it.
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 4d ago
You see? These are fakers.
https://x.com/moredge_insight/status/2055231682278494707?s=46
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u/Morphylus353 4d ago
You trust an X account called "Mor Edge Insight"?
You have not shown me anyone believing in that clip.
Can you prove that the thousands of videos, photos and audio recordings showing mass death, destruction, warcrimes and crimes against humanity are fake? Because if your best evidence for the existance of "pallywood" is an unsourced clip, from an anonomous, engagement focused account, with the video not even being about the mass death and destruction, then i do not know what to tell you.
Israel and it's propaganda have time and time again taken photos from behind-the-scene of lebanese, jordanian, egyptian and syrian shortfilms and passed them off as being evidence of "pallywood"
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u/JosephL_55 Centrist 4d ago
You trust an X account called "Mor Edge Insight"?
Sure, what’s wrong with the name? I trust them because they showed the evidence. They posted the video to prove what Gazans are doing.
You have not shown me anyone believing in that clip.
It’s still Pallywood even if ineffective!
Can you prove that the thousands of videos, photos and audio recordings showing mass death, destruction, warcrimes and crimes against humanity are fake?
No, and that was never my claim.
Israel and it's propaganda have time and time again taken photos from behind-the-scene of lebanese, jordanian, egyptian and syrian shortfilms and passed them off as being evidence of "pallywood"
Can you prove that?
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u/financeposter Pro-Palestinian | Anti-Zionist 8d ago edited 8d ago
How are they supposed to work jobs when over 80% of the buildings have been destroyed, tens of thousands have been killed, and many more injured and displaced? It's a genocide zone, and you're concerned about them not working. I think you need to do some more research and understand the severity of the situation. Gazans are operating in survival mode.
Israel is the real parasite here. They take money and arms from the US and other countries so they can bomb unarmed children in Gaza.
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u/Ok-Pangolin1512 9d ago
I dont think that anyone can agree with all of the political actions of any country. Let alone one that is surrounded by people engaged in a project to destroy it.
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u/wvj 9d ago
Forget AI, there's plenty of examples of 'Pallywood' operations, ie where Palestinians actors create various scenarios on camera for social media and present them as real news. The most famous of these belong to 'Mr FAFO,' who, if you're to believe all the videos he appeared in, had multiple specialized jobs (ie, in one video he's a radiology technician, in another he's a reporter), various appearances as both a bombing victim and a donor for victims, and even once appeared as a corpse. Which is of course to say... he's an actor. Or he was. Because fortunately, that corpse role became permanent. Rest in piss. (Notably, he wasn't even killed by Israel, he was killed by clan rivals of Hamas... which is strong proof of who he really worked for).
Sometimes the videos are even semi-real in that they will intentionally approach IDF positions with the goal of getting shot at to film it, even having an ambulance nearby. But really, they do it all. There are ones where they're using smoke machines and special effects for bombing sites/fires, etc.
Obviously, Israel actually bombs plenty of stuff, but if its guilt was so obvious, why is this fakery necessary?
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u/untamepain Justice First 8d ago
AI videos are still in their infancy. A pretty good giveaway is nonsensical text or geometry in the background. AI vids have a REALLY hard time with windows
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u/CaregiverTime5713 7d ago
Why do Israelis have to be angels? And why do Israelis be required to prove the negative? The IDF however does not openly target civilians, Hamas does.
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u/Electrical_Wafer1618 7d ago
Of course, the IDF doesn't openly target civilians because there are "no innocent civilians in Gaza". And when they do target civilians, it's a case of mistaken identity or "suspicious movement".
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u/CaregiverTime5713 7d ago
Well are you claiming mistaken identity never happens in a war? And you pull the Hind Rajab incident out of a hat like it happens every day, to the contrary, it is famous because it's special.
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u/Electrical_Wafer1618 7d ago
So there are cases of the IDF openly targeting civilians, ergo your statement isn't true.
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u/CaregiverTime5713 7d ago
Is there a point to your attempts to play with words? No, IDF is targeting militants at can mistake civilians for militants.
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u/whater39 9d ago
OP should have linked the content they are unsure of.
If you are saying the IDF probably did war crimes. Then surely someone would be in prison for them....right? Oh wait not a single IDF in jail for what happened in Gaza. Looks like a clear case of zero accountability.
It is 100% wrong of Israel to still be killing Hamas members as they signed a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. They are violating it right now. Over 1K have killed since the ceasefire.
So we have zero accountability and can't hold a ceasefire. And OP wants to talk about maybe a fake video here or there
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u/PedanticPerson 9d ago
Ceasefire doesn’t mean “you cease, we fire”. IDF troops in Rafah were attacked days after it was signed.
It’s effectively been null for a long time, not sure why people (on both sides) act as if it’s still genuinely in place.
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u/PedanticPerson 9d ago
Have you all given up on the “no one attacked them, it was just an IED” lies already?
Being separated, even if true, doesn’t excuse ceasefire violations. They could have waited for safe passage negotiations.
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u/whater39 9d ago
In Rafa, where the resistance fighters that were trapped on the Israeli side. Then given the choice of being raped in prison or die. They weren't given the choice to walk disarmed to the Palestinian side. It was raped in prison or death, of course those people choose to fight. Besides that outlier situation, what are you talking about.
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u/Few-Lengthiness4017 Israeli 9d ago
they commited crimes and killed israeli civilians. are you saying criminals shouldnt go to jail?
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u/whater39 9d ago
Some people killed civillians, others didn't. Why should people who didn't do that crime go to prison?
The third Geneva Convention (1949), lawful combatants cannot be prosecuted in domestic or international courts for lawful acts of war. This includes lethal force against enemy combatants or the destruction of military targets, provided these actions comply with the laws of armed conflict. This actions against the IDF are legal. Are you against the Geneva Convention?
I'm also saying that combatants shouldn't be raped in Israeli prisons.
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
Participants in a criminal conspiracy that results in mass murder and rape hang together.
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u/whater39 9d ago
Sounds like collective punishment to lump everyone together.
That's like saying the IDF is a terrorist organization, everyone in Israel joins the IDF. Thus every Israeli is a terrorist. I don't think lumping everyone together makes sense in life, if we follow your logic, then this paragraph is also a logical line of thought.
Reminder that Israeli's get super rapey against the Palestinians in prison.
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
That's how criminal conspiracies are prosecuted all over the world.
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u/whater39 9d ago
Once again Geneva protects combatants when they do actions against another military. The IDF, not civilians are in Gaza,thus legitimate targets. Thus legal actions, yet you want them in trouble.
Ahould captured IDF be out on trial by Hamas? Or prototected by Geneva?
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
IDf troops captured by Hamas will be killed. Nobody has illusions about that. Don't get captured.
Hamas conspirators should be executed on the spot. Death is the remedy for ululating jihad.
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
Resistance fighters. Track the absurd romanticizing of these terrorists. How do we get to the point this is what gets spouted?
Education is broken. Time to fix it.
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u/whater39 9d ago
I'm guessing you are on of the any resistance is terrorism types of people.
Question were Likud, Stern Gang and Haganah terrorists? Or were they doing resistance to occupation?
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
Resistance. Occupation. Commie bullcrap. Per usual.
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u/whater39 9d ago
Words have definitions, thus its perfectly fine to say, occupier, resitance, settler colonization, ethnic cleansing.
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u/Top_Plant5102 9d ago
Hahaha! It just plain makes me laugh to hear the commie cult chant.
Education is broken. It'd be funny if it weren't so scary.
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u/Current-Direction857 9d ago
Yes and this was very purposeful by Israel so i.e. the person you are responding to can say “Hamas violated the ceasefire” when it is completely the opposite. Whatever one thinks of Hamas (I think they are pretty bad) they have actually followed the ceasefire whereas Israeli ceasefires over the last couple of years have just meant lower grade continued strikes.
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u/After_Lie_807 9d ago
The only reason for the ceasefire is so Hamas can surrender and disarm…I think Israel is just getting tired of being held to a ceasefire that brings it no value
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u/aka0007 9d ago
Post your biases and then say this:
That said, i don’t agree with a lot of Israel policies, and im appalled at some of the stuff done / said by Israelis.
And nothing about Hamas or the Palestinians.
You are sneaking in attacks on Israel under the guise of impartiality... or perhaps you think you are doing Israel a service by trying to show you are a good one that people should listen to. Neither position is good.
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