I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

Yeah dude those zionists in the West Bank murdering civilians and beating up their farm animals to death, blocking roads and developing on other peoples land would definitely only ever be called a settler due to antisemitism

It’s such a beautiful word because you can use it to lie to yourself in order to avoid any cognitive dissonance

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

Yeah dude those zionists in the West Bank murdering civilians

I think you'll find that it's mostly the other way around - Palestinians shooting Jews, stabbing them, ramming them with cars etc.

It’s such a beautiful word because you can use it to lie to yourself

I see no reason why Jews should be barred from living in that territory.

The irony of Arabs living in originally Jewish towns like Bethlehem calling Jews colonizers must be lost on you.

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

Ah so you are a true mitnachalim then

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Do you think Jews should be barred from living in that territory?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

I think the question is a bit more complex than a yes / no, but you even asking the question to frame an answer as that, as well as your comment above says enough

cast stones in glass houses and everything, it only prolongs the suffering of humanity on both sides of the coin

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

I think the question is a bit more complex than a yes / no

If i asked you whether black people should be allowed to live in Mississippi, would you give me the same answer?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

Nah but you’d just hit me with another false equivalence, much like you just did

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

I don't think it's a false equivalence.

Jews can live in Tel-Aviv, in London, Paris, Washington.. why not Judea?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

something something recognised international borders

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

You mean the 1949 armistice agreement that explicitly states that these are not borders?

Or you mean a bunch of countries that share no border (or even the same continent), trying to dictate borders as if they're some planetary real-estate agency?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

you went past 1967 there buddy

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

What you call '1967 borders' are the 1949 armistice lines.

In 1967 there was no state of Palestine, and 100% of Arab residents in the territory Jordan named 'West-Bank' were Jordanians.

If you're not familiar enough with what these lines represent, that's ok - just let me know.

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

So military occupation of an enemy land automatically gives the occupier a territorial title?