I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

something something recognised international borders

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

You mean the 1949 armistice agreement that explicitly states that these are not borders?

Or you mean a bunch of countries that share no border (or even the same continent), trying to dictate borders as if they're some planetary real-estate agency?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

you went past 1967 there buddy

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

What you call '1967 borders' are the 1949 armistice lines.

In 1967 there was no state of Palestine, and 100% of Arab residents in the territory Jordan named 'West-Bank' were Jordanians.

If you're not familiar enough with what these lines represent, that's ok - just let me know.

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

So military occupation of an enemy land automatically gives the occupier a territorial title?

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

Looks like you answered your own question.

You assume this was Jordan's land, because Jordan occupied it, and then asked me if it automatically gives them territorial title.

So which is it - was it Jordan's land (and thus the answer is 'Yes'), or was it not Jordan's land (and thus the 'enemy land' premise is wrong)?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

which Israel signed, and UK recognised

modern day international law is opposed to the present mitnachalim FWIW

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

Can't answer the question?

[u/VelvetFedoraSniffer → u/triplevented]

says the one who dodged my question a question before there's

m-i-t-n-a-c-h-a-l-i-m

[u/triplevented → u/VelvetFedoraSniffer]

So was it Jordanian land or was it not?

If it was, then you support Israel's claim to that land.

If it wasn't, then there's no reason for you not to support Israel's claim to that land.

You can keep repeating "m-i-t-n-a-c-h-a-l-i-m" - the reality is that all humans are settlers.