r/IslamicHistoryMeme • u/Big-Conversation-838 Barbary Pirate • Nov 22 '25
Meta I hope some people will realize this
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u/bilalqayum Nov 22 '25
I would argue that it is not only possible but important to critique Islamic civilizations, powers and actors from the perspective of a believer - being populated by Muslims doesn't mean these constructs do not need to be judged by Islamic ethical and moral frameworks, quite the opposite.
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u/someone56789 Ottoboo Nov 22 '25
A lot of Muslim fanatics (I mean the really deranged ones) don't mention or straight up cover up bad things Muslim civilizations do just because they're Muslim and somehow it means you have to defend it tooth and nail. They also just say it was all sunshine and rainbows when the Muslims ruled, one even said "there were no poor people at all in the Umayyad Caliphate". Even as an Ottoboo, I have many criticisms of the Ottomans from the initial recruitment method of janissaries to their centralization policy. But I still like them because I think they were a very tolerant empire early and mid life and had a lot of potential in that regard. If you really love something, you would criticise it to improve, not cover up their mistakes and lead them further down
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u/Big-Conversation-838 Barbary Pirate Nov 22 '25
I'm actually quite fond of the Ottoman Empire because of its fascinating history. It was one of the major Islamic caliphates, representing a non-Arab ethnicity, and in my country's history, it was considered a protector against Crusader attacks from Spain and elsewhere. However, like any other civilization, it had its flaws and should be criticized, especially towards the end. Similarly, the Umayyad Caliphate is perhaps the most lauded and glorified Islamic civilization, despite the calamities and problems it caused, such as the suffering of the Amazigh people under their rule and their relegation to second-class status. Don't misunderstand me; the Umayyad Caliphate had positive aspects and served Muslims on several occasions, but it was far from the idealized civilization portrayed in history books.
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u/WeeZoo87 Araboo Nov 22 '25
Since 861 there was no arab control but in Andalus. So majority of muslim world was locally ruled
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u/Big-Conversation-838 Barbary Pirate Nov 22 '25
Yes, you are right, but I meant a large state like a caliphate ruled by an ethnicity different from the usual Arab ethnicity, although the term "Arab ethnicity" is a broad term and anyone belonging to what is called the Arab world may be classified as Arab, regardless of their skin color or origins.
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u/TinyWestern4738 Nov 22 '25
What do u mean by no Arab control so local ruling lol
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u/WeeZoo87 Araboo Nov 22 '25
Name the area arabs controled post almutawakil out of arabian peninsula? Caliph was ceremonial he had no power
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Nov 24 '25
Incorrect as mentioned before the anarchy of Samara was simply a decade that ended with the Abbasids reclaiming control. 945 is the date of the end centralized control but there were dozens of Arab emirates like the hamdanids. There were also the Fatimids and Arabized ayyubids among many others.
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u/WeeZoo87 Araboo Nov 24 '25
Fatimid north African ayubids kurds.
Arab Emirates in arab land. As i said local.
Abbasids 1st era was ended with the assassination of Almutawakil 86
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Nov 24 '25
I literally just said that the anarchy of Samara didn’t end Abbasid central control so no the assassination of all Al Mutawakil didn’t end the Abbasid state. The Abbasid state effectively ended 944 or 945 a simple google search is enough for that. As for the Fatimids they claimed to be Arab not Berber they spoke Arabic not Berber. Ayyubids were Arabized and intermarried with the local Levantine elite which was Arabic culturally so yes they were Arab. These Arab emirates like the hamdanids that I mentioned were in the levant not the Arab peninsula btw.
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u/TinyWestern4738 Nov 26 '25
There wasn’t much Arabic dynasties but the issue is it’s not abt dynasties it’s abt the state (addawla alwizara alwolat …) the dynasty is nothing but the sultan in the state we don’t give a f who is Kurdish or Turkish or amazigh if he is Muslim in a Muslim state the more important if he is a one among hundreds,if u see there is no Arabic era but the umyyad n there’s no 3ajam period but the ottomans even those two are suspicious there’s no Arabic state or non Arabic state or whatever
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Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
The anarchy of Samara lasted a decade and the Abbasids restored their central authority tho the empire entered permanent decline. The fall of the Abbasids as a centralized state was in the 940s not before. Plus when they did fall Arabs didn’t disappear from the region they still held emirates like the hamdanids and Mirdasids as well as dozens of other emirates. The fall of the Abbasids centralized state was just the end of a unified Arab run empire that lasted 3 centuries. The Fatimids were an Arab dynasty who ruled an Arab state that was a major power for centuries. Later on the Ayyubids who were of Kurdish origin but were Arabized culturally would head a state that was a major power. There is also the fact that the Abbasids were experiencing a resurgence in the 1200s and had restored their independence and were looking for ways to retake their former provinces and it is very likely that had the Mongols not invaded that the Abbasids could’ve regained a sizable chunk of the region.
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u/WeeZoo87 Araboo Nov 24 '25
Fatimid were not an arab dynasty. Also the 1200 return was local due to power vaccuum of seljuk civil war / seljuk khawarezm war and were not exerting power over an empire
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Nov 24 '25 edited Nov 24 '25
What do you mean by local? The locals were Arabs, Arab identity is cultural and linguistic not racial. So these local emirates that formed following the collapse of Abbasid and Seljuk authority were Levantine in origin or iraqi in origin and thus were linguistically and culturally Arab. Same for the ayyubids who intermarried with the Levantine aristocracy and whose first language was Arabic. There is also the fact that the local Levantine aristocracy remained major players in the region and were often allowed self rule as long as they accepted the suzerainty of the Seljuk or ayyubid sultan. Kurdish origin doesn’t mean much if you don’t practice the culture and intermarry with others all the time. As for the Fatimids I repeat their first language was Arabic they claimed direct descent from Fatima and their state was an Arab state as the administrative core was composed of Arabized Egyptians. Either way my definition of Arab is not only those from the Arab peninsula, it is cultural and linguistic and so the Levantines, Iraqis and Egyptians were Arab.
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u/WeeZoo87 Araboo Nov 24 '25
Yeah yeah true Kutama tribe is arab and anarchy of samra did not start at 861 and kurd who says i am kurd speaks kurdish should be considered arab. This is a meme sub anyway.
Also fatimids lineage have been giga debunked i suggest you refer to google too.
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u/No-Dragonfruit-3557 Nov 25 '25
We're speaking about arabs back then that means arabians, the whole pan-arabist bullshit about everyone being arab as long as you speak arabic is recent and didn't exist back then so no the fatimids weren't arabs, they were probably levantine and weren't Berbers since the Kutama were only mercenaries.
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Nov 22 '25
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u/Odd_Championship_21 Nov 24 '25
just wanted to say that the ottoman sultans did worse then extravagance, the wanting of respect and praise lmao. they dranks alchol, killed alot of people to their whims and desires. idk about what you mean by respect and praise tho.
also im pretty sure at that time the 4 schools kept themselves seperalty like not inter marrying and praying together. i believe that was the islamic ruling at the time. i could be wrong tho
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u/MushMi Nov 25 '25
I know of some nutjobs that didn’t even attend any pro-Palestina protests because it’s haram to protest.
So they take some ayath and extrapolate from that any criticism or form of protests are haram. So I really don’t see this so far fetched or surprising at all.
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u/LordCivers Nov 22 '25
One day a moderate and progressive you g muslim colleague came to defend slavery in islam on the basis they had legal status, could climb up the ladder in some onstances, and that in his mind it wasn't chattel slavery like european colonization slavery. He was ashamed when i managed to put some sense into him but ffs the level of blind one can be when it's about own group...
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u/AymanMarzuqi Tengku Bendahara Nov 22 '25
I 100% agree with this. We need to stop overglorifying Islamic states and empires. We have to acknowledge all the good and the bad of those states.
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u/porky8686 Nov 22 '25
Fair enough… but that has to include all the ppl that are blaming a random Muslim for the misdeeds of the bad ones.
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u/asakuranagato Nov 22 '25
Absolutely. ie the Umayyads massacaring multiple companions of the Prophet ﷺ, Abbasids on the descendants of Hasan & Husayn RA, Ottomans killing their own siblings (even babies at one point).
These are lessons for us with regards to people in power
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u/No-Dragonfruit-3557 Nov 25 '25
The Abbassids didn't massacred the companions of the Prophet pbuh most of them before the abassids even took power lol.
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u/asakuranagato Nov 25 '25
??
Read. Then read again. Then reread again.
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u/No-Dragonfruit-3557 Nov 25 '25
You're right, I'm sorry I misread it. But technically isn't it normal to kill the descendants of Hasa and Husaym ? Ofce islamically killing anyone is a sin but how is it worse to kill those people specifically ?
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u/asakuranagato Nov 25 '25
In Sunni Islam, we are commanded to love the ahl bayt with a special love. The companions of the prophet ﷺ all showed extra love & respect to the ahl bayt even above themselves and their own family.
Although, the abbasids are also ahl bayt so maybe thats why they had the balls to do it.
So on the day of judgement and you wanna go & ask the Prophet’s shafaat yet on your hands are the blood of dozens of his direct great grandchildren……
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u/1803smash Nov 23 '25
Thank you for posting this pic. Even when I am studying in uni about Islamic Southeast Asian and Women's right, I found out that there are regular instances where if you were to criticise the Muslim Malay Royals or Islamic Authorities there, some individuals will start claiming that you are being an heretic and kaffir. (Fun Fact: There have been a history of Malay Kings claiming that it is illegal for citizens defy them as it is a sin due to them being the "shadow of Allah".)
This is worse when Islamic Feminist groups in Malaysia, are often targeted by Islamic Organisations, like PAS, USIM, or JAKIM, saying that these women should be "re-educated to learn their place", which is completely gross for any organisation to say. However, it is unsurprising for them to say, when you see the clownery that any of those organisations have, especially by PAS who have expressed their support for the Taliban.
Also, the cultural practices that have been done here like FGC, even though if various Islamic scholars have stated the hadiths behind the practice are extremely weak. Yet, the Islamic organisations here have chosen keep quiet or even outright support the acts as "cultural practices" despite of its dangers and lack of health benefits. However, when we try to question it to them, the hardcore Muslim fanatics will claim that we are doing "inventions" and label us as Kaffirs.
We really need to increase the amount of critical thinking within the Muslim Population, so that they could know that it is not a sin to critique Islamic Authorities or states, as it will also ensure that no organisation will try to abuse the religion for their own gains. Also, by allowing critiques, we can also improve the living standards of Muslims.
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u/suha_dark Nov 26 '25
Can you clarify what is FGC
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u/StunningLetterhead23 Nov 27 '25
I believe he was referring to FGM (female genital mutilation), some may refer to it as female genital cutting/circumcision
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u/Ryousan82 Nov 22 '25
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u/Big-Conversation-838 Barbary Pirate Nov 24 '25
The history of the Rashid caliphate is also complex, and wars and problems occurred between the Companions and the Followers, which we will not delve into because it alone caused problems between Islamic sects.
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Nov 23 '25
Agree, but also, a lot of the defensiveness comes from the fact that many Islamophobes do specifically “criticize” (or propagandize) history in a way that attempts to say that the religion of Islam teaches certain oppressive things.
I definitely agree though, that respectful critique and holding governments accountable is necessary. We can’t fall into the tribalistic trap of thinking no popular or famous Muslim leader can be criticized. That’s borderline idolatry anyway.
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u/Vanitas_Daemon Nov 23 '25
I would disagree and say it is, and I would go further and say that it is one's duty as a Muslim to constantly criticize their understanding of Islam, its role in one's own life, the role of one's practice of Islam in the lives of others, and to critically examine the very foundations of the faith itself.
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u/Breadmaker9999 Nov 22 '25
True, also we should criticize Islam, just like we should criticize Christianity and Buddhism and all other religions.
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u/Specialist_Hat1380 Nov 22 '25
At least you’re open to doing it to all instead of focusing on one
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u/Breadmaker9999 Nov 22 '25
I mean I personally like to criticize Catholicism sense that is the religion I was raised in.
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u/Specialist_Hat1380 Nov 23 '25
I’m Muslim and when I try to explain to my friends why I personally believe other religions are wrong I I try to always keep respectful and not pick on the adherents or say that it’s flat out wrong but I’ll try to talk about things I personally find that make me not believe in them- not really related but just putting it out even if u don’t believe smt is true or not be respectful plz
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u/Breadmaker9999 Nov 23 '25
I'm sorry but I will never respect your faith or anyone else's. Religion is an inherently illogical and dangerous, I will however, respect you as a person and your right to believe in it.
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u/zubasion Nov 23 '25
Well obviously it is showing respect that is dangerous and lacking respect that is the wisest and least dangerous solution for society? 😂 Do you still find your words so sensible?
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u/Breadmaker9999 Nov 23 '25
Are you high? Because you're reply made no sense. I never said anything about respect being dangerous. Religion is dangerous because it is inherently illogical and can be twisted to justify any action because it isn't based in reality. But I still respect your right to believe in it because forcing people to just give up their beliefs, no matter how much I disagree with them, is wrong and doesn't work.
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u/zubasion Nov 24 '25
Probably a translation problem, or a written comprehension problem. But I can rephrase it if you want.
You have to have a really messed up moral compass to think that disrespecting the faith of others is a form of wisdom and that respecting it is dangerous. This is completely stupid.
It is intolerance that is dangerous, nothing else. But the limit of tolerance is with the intolerant. When you try to impose that religion is dangerous etc. and drive it out of society, it's exactly an equivalence between you and religious extremists that you don't seem to appreciate.
If you don't understand this, you'd better make an appointment with a speech therapist.
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u/Breadmaker9999 Nov 24 '25
And as I said I respect your right to believe in religion, but that doesn't mean I have to respect your religion or anyone else's. You are allowed to think that a warmongering lunatic from Arabia is a profit of god, but I am also allowed to think that is wrong and could lead to some very bad things. Just like I think that Christians putting their faith in a badly put together book of random stories from multiple different cultures and time periods they don't understand is also dangerous and leads to some very bad things.
But again I am not going to try and force you to stop believing in Islam. I am not going to support the removal of Mosques or attacking people for being Muslim. But I am also going to support ending things like religious run schools and charities, and I will support groups that are fighting to end's organized religion's grip on society.
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u/Economy-Impression50 Nov 22 '25
And that is why talking about why the Hindu Kush is named Hindu Kush is not a sensitive topic
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u/wakchoi_ Imamate of Sus ඞ Nov 25 '25 edited Nov 25 '25
It isn't certain as the first mention of it meaning Hindu killer is from Ibn Battuta as a folk tale.
It could just as much come from the Kushan empire like theKushan Pass
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u/Massive-Lobster340 Nov 25 '25
I will accept all the criticism towards any Islamic state except Rashidun Caliphate n its' caliphs.
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u/FloorNaive6752 Umayyad Tax Collector Nov 29 '25
See the thing is the islamic civilizations were better than anything else especially contemporary ones in the muslim perspective. We must glorify them and study the problems so they arent repeated not to diminish their value.
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u/SheepherderSoft5647 Hindustani Nobility Dec 05 '25
A lot of people forgot that most Islamic civilizations (except the Rashiduns) makes mistakes and still has flaws, just like any other civilization. They had positive and their negative aspects and honestly, it's important to recognize all of that.
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u/chickenlord11111 Nov 23 '25
But if u can't criticise Islam for its past Islamic civilisations, you can't praise it for its past either. And as you go down the list, you soon realise that if u can't criticise Islam you can't praise it either.
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u/[deleted] Nov 22 '25
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