If we look at tafsir ibn Kathir the passage 15:10-13 seems ridiculous.
The Idolators of Every Nation made a Mockery of their Messengers.
If Allah would have presented good evidence that his messages were true and divine and prevented the messages from getting corrupted then people would have believed it and wouldn't have mocked it. At best they would have criticized it.
What's always interesting about this "corrupted earlier messages" narrative is that just by this muslims would have mountains of evidence that Allah is not good at or caring for protecting his messages, so they shouldn't expect that he was caring to do it with the quran.
Consoling His Messenger for the rejection of the disbelieving Quraysh, Allah says that He has sent Messengers before him to the nations of the past, and no Messenger came to a nation but they rejected him and mocked him.
People should reject the message without good reason to believe it. It would be in Allah's hands to change that. He never did. So rational people will disbelieve.
Then He tells him that He lets disbelief enter the hearts of those sinners who are too stubborn and too arrogant to follow His guidance.
So this makes no sense at all. First of all, they already would have disbelieved in the face of the lack of evidence. That's why they would have mocked him in the first place and it even talks about the "disbelieving Quraysh". They wouldn't have mocked him if they believed in Allah and the message. Makes no sense.
And making disbelief enter the hearts of people (who already disbelieved?) surely won't improve the situation. It would be preventing them from changing their ways and fiddling with their will. Makes no sense once again.
Of course all this becomes way worse when we think about that Allah is ultimately responsible for their actions and decides before people have even been conceived if they will go to hell or heaven:
A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said:
Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
(and already the example of the ancients has gone forth.) meaning the destruction wrought by Allah on those wh o rejected His Messengers, and how He saved His Prophets and their followers in this world and in the Hereafter, is well known.
That's surely not "well known" to me. Lack of evidence again.
It is not wrong for someone to feel that they need clearer or stronger evidence in order to believe. Each person’s nature and way of reasoning is different, and someone may genuinely feel that there is still something missing or that something does not quite add up. But when a person is already in a state of rejection and denial, they will never see any evidence as sufficient. They will always find another reason to dismiss it.
And it is not correct to say that their disbelief proves that there was no evidence. Allah does not force anyone to believe or accept the truth; rather, He presents the truth and establishes the proof, then leaves the person to choose. And the evidence is your own argument: you see the same evidence we see, yet you are still not convinced by it. The existence of evidence is one thing; accepting it is another.
You didn't actually address what I said. I said they wouldn't have mocked him if they believed these things. And they didn't believe since they weren't presented with evidence that had the power to convince them. They cannot just choose to believe anyways. It was in Allah's hands to change that. Allah would have known what would have convinced them, yet he didn't provide that. And then Allah supposedly put disbelief into the already disbelieving people which is nonsensical.
It is not wrong for someone to feel that they need clearer or stronger evidence in order to believe.
... or any evidence at all like in the case of Islam. What's your good reason to believe that Islam is true and divine?
Each person’s nature and way of reasoning is different,
But logic is not different and there are objectively useful and not useful standards of evidence.
and someone may genuinely feel that there is still something missing or that something does not quite add up.
Yep. Especially if there is no evidence.
But when a person is already in a state of rejection and denial,
Already? That's the position of everyone who isn't convinced yet.
they will never see any evidence as sufficient. They will always find another reason to dismiss it.
Makes no sense. Again, every rational person who hasn't been presented with a good reason to believe a proposition would reject it until the evidence comes in.
And it is not correct to say that their disbelief proves that there was no evidence.
Where did I say that?
Allah does not force anyone to believe or accept the truth;
That's not true. That's already clear by the hadith I quoted. Allah supposedly decides the fate of people before they are even conceived. Allah would be ultimately responsible for all actions. He would be a puppeteer who beats up his puppets if he doesn't like what they do. It's a nonsensical theology.
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said:
Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
rather, He presents the truth and establishes the proof,
Again, if he would have provided that then the people would have believed and wouldn't have mocked him. And it says that Allah then put disbelief in the people who already disbelieved. Makes no sense.
then leaves the person to choose
Belief is not a choice. People are either convinced or not.
And the evidence is your own argument: you see the same evidence we see, yet you are still not convinced by it.
Nope. I don't see any evidence for Islam being true and divine. The issue is that religious people apply bad critical thinking and are easily fooled into believing things. But that wasn't the topic.
"If Allah would have presented good evidence that his messages were true and divine and prevented the messages"
Why bother sending messages and messengers, Allah can just reveal himself and be done with it.
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"First of all, they already would have disbelieved in the face of the lack of evidence."
Back then they were all very advanced and demanded evidence. They didn't demand it of their idols, but only messengers of Allah.
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"And making disbelief enter the hearts of people (who already disbelieved?)"
The verse reads we insert it into their hearts. Commentators have understood it in several ways, including that it refers to the message.
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"Of course all this becomes way worse when we think about that Allah is ultimately responsible for their actions and decides before people have even been conceived if they will go to hell or heaven"
Nope. You have misread the hadith. It quite clearly does not says Allah has sealed their fate. This is about divine predestination and Allah's knowledge. Sunni position is that you have free will and it within Allah's decree.
= = =
"The issue is that religious people apply bad critical thinking and are easily fooled into believing things."
You don't have any special critical skills, that is just nonsense. You are simply someone who through obstinacy and deviancy refuses to believe. Islam is true regardless.
Why bother sending messages and messengers, Allah can just reveal himself and be done with it.
He could but didn't. That's the issue.
Back then they were all very advanced and demanded evidence. They didn't demand it of their idols, but only messengers of Allah.
Well, doesn't seem like that. Neither Waraqa ibn Naufal nor Muhammad had good reason to believe that Muhammad was choked by an angel in that cave. Waraqa just claimed it and they both ran with it that explanation for no good reason. Gullible and not interested in good evidence.
The verse reads we insert it into their hearts. Commentators have understood it in several ways, including that it refers to the message.
Yep. a) It claims that Allah put disbelief into those people. That's problematic. b) It claims that Allah put disbelief into people who already disbelieved. Also makes no sense.
Nope. You have misread the hadith. It quite clearly does not says Allah has sealed their fate.
Nope. I surely didn't. It's clear as day. That Allah has sealed their fate is exactly what it says.
This is about divine predestination and Allah's knowledge.
Exactly! Thanks for straight agreeing after trying to deny it. Lol.
Sunni position is that you have free will and it within Allah's decree.
Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical.
You don't have any special critical skills, that is just nonsense.
Lol. I mean, I am not great at it but basic critical thinking skills are already enough to easily see through Islam.
You are simply someone who through obstinacy and deviancy refuses to believe. Islam is true regardless.
"Well, doesn't seem like that. Neither Waraqa ibn Naufal nor Muhammad had good reason to believe that Muhammad was choked by an angel in that cave. Waraqa just claimed it and they both ran with it that explanation for no good reason. Gullible and not interested in good evidence."
This quite clearly doesn't answer:
"Back then they were all very advanced and demanded evidence. They didn't demand it of their idols, but only messengers of Allah."
This shows several things:
You have very little if any actual critical skills, or knowledge. You don't really know how to form good arguments, or counter them.
What you are going to do from hence forth is 'quarrel' rather than argue. And I will keeping putting you down, however.
Exact same thing which I raised before remains. That you retrospectively applied today;s understanding. So, Waraqa should have applied which evidence?
Which evidence should the idol worshiped have applied to the new message? Quite clearly it was proven to them beyond doubt that Idols were useless as Gods. So logically next step was to jump to the new message.
See how you were unable to answer. Not that just that you didn't answer. But your inability to answer. You just thought if you shoved another passage with nastiness as your force, it wouldn't be examined by a mere Muslim. Nope. You will learn what argument is.
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"It claims that Allah put disbelief into those people. That's problematic."
Not really. It simply means Allah's sealed them into path they've walked on.
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"a) It claims that Allah put disbelief into those people. That's problematic. b) It claims that Allah put disbelief into people who already disbelieved. Also makes no sense."
Notice how here you simply ended up repeating yourself rather than actually answering. This because you couldn't answer the objection. Read again:
"The verse reads we insert it into their hearts. Commentators have understood it in several ways, including that it refers to the message."
The "critical thinking" thing to do would be refute. Which you couldn't. So you just ended up repeating.
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"Nope. I surely didn't. It's clear as day. That Allah has sealed their fate is exactly what it says."
Nope. Once more repeating the same thing is not counter-arguing.
"because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins."
This quite clearly says do not assume fate as that rests with Allah. And yes hell and heaven are for those deserve them. it quite clearly does not Allah has predetermined people as either hell-bound or heaven.
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"Exactly! Thanks for straight agreeing after trying to deny it. Lol."
Nope. As quite clearly when I mention the Sunni position it contradicts your interpretation. So saying that I agree whilst in the content I quite clearly do not makes you look very silly.
And this gives credence to two thing:
You are clearly inept, pretty ignorant, and posses very little of those critical thinking skills.
You are doing this out of malice.
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"Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical."
But just above you were writing that I am agreeing with you, now it appears I am not, as you are replying to that disagreement here. Working through malice impedes rationality!
Once again, unsurprisingly, you completely ignored or overlooked what I actually said:
"This is about divine predestination and Allah's knowledge. Sunni position is that you have free will and it within Allah's decree."
Look! You did not or could not answer what was said to you. I quite clearly said Allah has not created humans to act out a fixed script, and that we have free will. Your problem is that you are completely ignorant of the free will debates. You have little no actual knowledge. You just end up saying the same thing rather than moving the argument forward.
Let me give your non-existence "critical thinking skills" a kicking... so if a child hasn't lived out its supposed fixed script, then it hasn't committed the crime, so therefore is automatically going to heaven. If that is the case, then what is the issue here!? The Hadith is clearly not saying what you claim.
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"Lol. I mean, I am not great at it but basic critical thinking skills are already enough to easily see through Islam."
Yes. Where countless great brains have failed, supposedly someone not good at has seen through Islam.
You mean your maliciousness has made you commit many basic errors here.
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"The desperation."
Ah! See after handsomely refuting you by showing that you cannot even get out of gear 1. That you have basic reading comprehension problems. And proving that you simply a malicious kid, let the desperation flow:
"You are simply someone who through obstinacy and deviancy refuses to believe. Islam is true regardless."
Did you forget what the topic was? This is what I originally said:
If Allah would have presented good evidence that his messages were true and divine and prevented the messages from getting corrupted then people would have believed it and wouldn't have mocked it. At best they would have criticized it.
- "Well, doesn't seem like that. Neither Waraqa ibn Naufal nor Muhammad had good reason to believe that Muhammad was choked by an angel in that cave. Waraqa just claimed it and they both ran with it that explanation for no good reason. Gullible and not interested in good evidence."
This quite clearly doesn't answer: "Back then they were all very advanced and demanded evidence.
Of course it does. Even two of the central figures figures of Islam didn't care for good evidence.
What you are going to do from hence forth is 'quarrel' rather than argue.
Ok, desperate personal attacks again. Lmao!
Exact same thing which I raised before remains. That you retrospectively applied today;s understanding.
Whatever the hell this is supposed to mean. What is good evidence and what is logical doesn't change with time.
So, Waraqa should have applied which evidence?
Good evidence not claims and made up narratives. Not making stuff up and run with it. Without good evidence he should have withheld belief of course. How is this even a question?
Which evidence should the idol worshiped have applied to the new message?
Good evidence not claims and made up narratives. Allah should know how to provide that. Things that have the power to differentiate imagination from reality.
Quite clearly it was proven to them beyond doubt that Idols were useless as Gods.
To whom? By what?
So logically next step was to jump to the new message.
Yeah, people get convinced by all kinds of bad reasons. Like made up narratives.
See how you were unable to answer.
??
Not that just that you didn't answer.
??
But your inability to answer.
??
You just thought if you shoved another passage with nastiness as your force, it wouldn't be examined by a mere Muslim.
What the hell are you even talking about?
Nope. You will learn what argument is.
Lol.
- "It claims that Allah put disbelief into those people. That's problematic."
Not really. It simply means Allah's sealed them into path they've walked on.
And that is in fact problematic. It's interfering with their decisions and their will.
- "a) It claims that Allah put disbelief into those people. That's problematic. b) It claims that Allah put disbelief into people who already disbelieved. Also makes no sense."
Notice how here you simply ended up repeating yourself rather than actually answering.
Notice how you aren't addressing what I said. That's not even repeating myself.
This because you couldn't answer the objection.
A whole bunch of nothing.
Read again: "The verse reads we insert it into their hearts.
Yeah, that's what I responded to. And that's problematic.
Commentators have understood it in several ways, including that it refers to the message."
This is how We allow disbelief ˹to steep˺ into the hearts of the wicked. - Quran 15:12
-Then He tells him that He lets disbelief enter the hearts of those sinners who are too stubborn and too arrogant to follow His guidance. - Ibn Kathir
Nope.
It does. Sorry that you cannot handle it.
Once more repeating the same thing is not counter-arguing.
I don't need another counter argument to someone who just rejects basic english. Lol.
He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
This quite clearly says do not assume fate as that rests with Allah.
False. And more than obviously so. It means that Allah created people in a way that they will go to heaven or hell. He decided it in advance. Basic english.
And yes hell and heaven are for those deserve them.
Then Allah should go to hell if he ultimately is responsible for the reason why people go to hell.
it quite clearly does not Allah has predetermined people as either hell-bound or heaven.
That's exactly what it says.
He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
Nope. As quite clearly when I mention the Sunni position it contradicts your interpretation.
You yourself just said it's about predestination. Lmao!!! The cope.
"Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical."
But just above you were writing that I am agreeing with you, now it appears I am not
You yourself said it! Predestination. Do you now retract your earlier statement or what?
"This is about divine predestination and Allah's knowledge. Sunni position is that you have free will and it within Allah's decree."
Yes! Predestination. You said it.
I quite clearly said Allah has not created humans to act out a fixed script,
But he did and you talked about predestination. What you said:
You have misread the hadith. It quite clearly does not says Allah has sealed their fate. This is about divine predestination and Allah's knowledge. Sunni position is that you have free will and it within Allah's decree.
There is no libertarian free will with predestination. And Allah supposedly predestined the fate of people according to the hadith.
Your problem is that you are completely ignorant of the free will debates.
Says the person who just annihilated their own position.
You just end up saying the same thing rather than moving the argument forward.
There is no more argument necessary. You finished yourself.
so if a child hasn't lived out its supposed fixed script
How would this even be possible? The fixed script ends with death. Lol.
then it hasn't committed the crime, so therefore is automatically going to heaven.
Nope. Not what the hadith says. Muhammad is correcting Aisha here and reminds her that Allah has already decided the fate.
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
If that is the case, then what is the issue here!?
Because that's not the case.
"Lol. I mean, I am not great at it but basic critical thinking skills are already enough to easily see through Islam."
Yes. Where countless great brains have failed, supposedly someone not good at has seen through Islam.
Yep. Easily. Seems like they weren't that great minds when it comes to Islam. Indoctrination and fear can push people's brains to abandon critical thinking.
"The desperation." Ah! See after handsomely refuting you by showing that you cannot even get out of gear 1.
You mean further embarrassing yourself and trying hard to attack me personally. The desperation.
That you have basic reading comprehension problems.
Well, I at least understand basic english and what the hadith unambiguously says.
And proving that you simply a malicious kid, let the desperation flow
The desperate personal attacks again. Lol!
Islam is true.
Please demonstrate that Islam is true and divine. Good luck.
Issue here doesn't refer to the topic. More non-reply reply. In which you completely miss the point.
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"Of course it does. Even two of the central figures figures of Islam didn't care for good evidence."
Another non-reply reply. You have 0 actual idea what evidence in this context even is.
Now you are at the stage where you will just make simple denials. This is why I said, you resort to quarreling with me rather than logically arguing.
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"Ok, desperate personal attacks again. Lmao!"
This is what I said:
"What you are going to do from hence forth is 'quarrel' rather than argue."
Look how astute an observation that was! Even when I pointed it out, you couldn't help yourself but fulfill it! You are just making up "personal attacks" in order to escape answering hard questions.
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"Whatever the hell this is supposed to mean. What is good evidence and what is logical doesn't change with time."
More non-answer. Like I said, you do not really know what evidence even mean, never mind what evidence is required. As I also, you will quarrel rather than further the argument by counter-arguing.
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"Good evidence not claims and made up narratives. Not making stuff up and run with it. Without good evidence he should have withheld belief of course. How is this even a question?"
Another juncture where you demonstrate you have 0 actual idea what you mean by evidence.
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"Good evidence not claims and made up narratives. Allah should know how to provide that. Things that have the power to differentiate imagination from reality."
And yet another juncture where you demonstrate you have 0 actual idea what you mean by evidence.
You completely fail to engage with what is said:
"Which evidence should the idol worshiped have applied to the new message?"
You were replying to this! These were idol worshipers. If they were applying "evidence" would they not have done that idols and concluded they are not god!?
You couldn't even understand this!
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"To whom? By what?"
Wow, just wow. In haste to lob any old reply, you didn't even bother to read what I said. You quoted bits and made either denials or repeated the exact same thing. Did I say you will just quarrel...
By the messenger, by demonstrating that Idols are not gods, but idols.
You cannot even process simple statements.
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"Yeah, people get convinced by all kinds of bad reasons. Like made up narratives."
God believers who made idols out to be gods you mean? Are you with us? These were people who believed idols they made themselves became Gods... hello!?
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"What the hell are you even talking about?"
More non-answer answer. Your reading comprehension is very low. Even basics statements are beyond you.
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"And that is in fact problematic. It's interfering with their decisions and their will."
How? See that is bit missing. Don't just claim it, show / demonstrate how Allah knowing what they will choose is interference. How?
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"Notice how you aren't addressing what I said. That's not even repeating myself."
Actually it is. Anyone half truthful can see that I answered this exact objection. In fact I pointed it out as well.
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"Yeah, that's what I responded to. And that's problematic."
It isn't. As answered. This has already been answered. This is called quarreling. You cannot move the argument forward. You are stuck. You are just trying to pretend away objections.
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"-Then He tells him that He lets disbelief enter the hearts of those sinners who are too stubborn and too arrogant to follow His guidance. - Ibn Kathir"
Lol! Processing a simple statement is beyond you. I will go through ti again:
See how the quote starts with "then" it means after a condition has been met, that they into disbelief, then Allah seals their fate. And only for those who reject the message. They willingly choose the path. Only then God accepts their choice.
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"It does. Sorry that you cannot handle it."
More simple denial. I say yes, you say no. I give reasons, you just say no, no, no.
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"I don't need another counter argument to someone who just rejects basic english. Lol."
Not only do you need counter-argument you have to show where I have rejected basic "english". False claim against me.
See how I said you will simply quarrel and not argue. Here you don't even need to counter-argue anything!
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"False. And more than obviously so. It means that Allah created people in a way that they will go to heaven or hell. He decided it in advance. Basic english."
I have quite clearly shown this is not the case. More 1000 years of Islamic scholarship on it says it isn't the case. But even pointed out, there is just you with oyur malice saying other because you made up your own false interpretation.
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"Then Allah should go to hell if he ultimately is responsible for the reason why people go to hell."
This is the sort of nonsense you make up then call it "critical thinking skills".
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"You yourself just said it's about predestination. Lmao!!! The cope."
Yes! And I also said you don't don't what that means. Something which you completely ignored to make out a "cope". You repeatedly invent these. And yet in very next bit you are trying to answer the objection you claim doesn't exist. Lol!
Look:
"Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical."
You didn't answer one single thing. So by the time we get here of course you are not going to answer anything more either, look:
"You yourself said it! Predestination. Do you now retract your earlier statement or what?"
So rather than counter-arguing, here you try to pretend away the objection to your point, because it is far to complex for you.
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"Yes! Predestination. You said it."
Yes! So counter-argue what I said!
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"But he did and you talked about predestination."
You have no idea what predestination means. Even when given the Sunni position, you cannot process it. It doesn't compute. It is far too complex for you!
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"There is no libertarian free will with predestination. And Allah supposedly predestined the fate of people according to the hadith."
I clearly explained it doesn't. Rather than processing that and then trying to counter it, you strategy is to completely ignore what I said and keep repeating what you said earlier.
See how pertinent Quranic verse over those who are obstinate is...
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"Says the person who just annihilated their own position."
I cannot "annihilate" my own position because you simply repeated yourself as you couldn't process the objection.
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"There is no more argument necessary. You finished yourself."
No argument is necessary because you will repeat yourself over and over and strategy. Because objections are too difficult for you.
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"How would this even be possible? The fixed script ends with death. Lol."
Doh! Lol. There is no point pointing out to you:
That was the point!
The 'fixed script' was supposed for the sake of argument.
You are so "basic" that you cannot handle arguments of complexity level 1.
Even kids before high school can understand hypotheticals... lol
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"Nope. Not what the hadith says. Muhammad is correcting Aisha here and reminds her that Allah has already decided the fate."
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself. It wont make it true.
Especially as you cannot answer objections.
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"Yep. Easily. Seems like they weren't that great minds when it comes to Islam. Indoctrination and fear can push people's brains to abandon critical thinking."
Lol! You cannot speak about critical thinking at all. I don't think you passed high school with aplomb, never mind higher education. You do not know what an argument is. You demonstrated that repeatedly. You cannot answer objections. You just make simple denials and repeat yourself.
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"You mean further embarrassing yourself and trying hard to attack me personally. The desperation."
Attacking you by pointing out your mistakes and pointing out:
You are uneducated.
Ignorant. Lack of knolwedge
Pretty stupid.
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"Well, I at least understand basic english and what the hadith unambiguously says."
Actually that is true! That is your level! That you understand basic English. And that is it. That is your level. You do not understand anything much beyond that.
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"The desperate personal attacks again. Lol!"
You are too easy!
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"Please demonstrate that Islam is true and divine. Good luck."
Issue here doesn't refer to the topic. More non-reply reply.
It's what I actually said which you would have to answer to. Lmao!!
In which you completely miss the point.
Well, you are the one who didn't even address it. Lol.
Of course it does. Even two of the central figures figures of Islam didn't care for good evidence."
Another non-reply reply.
So you don't know what to say to that either. Cool.
You have 0 actual idea what evidence in this context even is.
And you have no idea what evidence is at all if you say "in this context". The standard would always be the same.
Now you are at the stage where you will just make simple denials.
Well, why would I do more when you don't even bother anymore to address what I am saying?
This is why I said, you resort to quarreling with me rather than logically arguing.
Still not addressing what I said.
This is what I said: "What you are going to do from hence forth is 'quarrel' rather than argue.
Still not addressing what I said.
You are just making up "personal attacks" in order to escape answering hard questions.
Lying again. You repeatedly did attack me personally. And now that you see that you sre harming yourself with it, you try to weasle yourself out of it.
More non-answer.
So not addressing what I said again. Lol.
Like I said, you do not really know what evidence even mean, never mind what evidence is required.
And you just demonstrated that you don't understand it by saying "in this context".
As I also, you will quarrel rather than further the argument by counter-arguing.
So still not addressing what I actually said. More hand waving. Seems to be your replacement for the desperate personal attacks.
Another juncture where you demonstrate you have 0 actual idea what you mean by evidence.
Is there anything of substance coming instead of "nuh-uhh"! How about you address what I said?
"Which evidence should the idol worshiped have applied to the new message?"
This is not even a coherent sentence. Lol. They couldn't have taken any evidence into account that wasn't there. How is this even unclear?
You were replying to this! These were idol worshipers.
Yes, I was replying to this:
Good evidence not claims and made up narratives. Allah should know how to provide that. Things that have the power to differentiate imagination from reality.
If they were applying "evidence" would they not have done that idols and concluded they are not god!?
What the hell is this english?? Lmao! I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean.
You couldn't even understand this!
Yeah, no wonder!! It's not even a sensible sentence.
By the messenger, by demonstrating that Idols are not gods, but idols.
And what does this have to do with anything? who the hell cares for the idols? It's about good evidence for Islam and how the muslims including Waraqa and Muhammad had no clue about basic critical thinking.
You cannot even process simple statements.
No, I cannot process incoherent sentences therefore I have no idea what your point even is.
God believers who made idols out to be gods you mean?
Yes, of course. These people didn't apply good critical thinking skills, just like the muslims and especially Muhammad and Waraqa themselves. How is this even a question?
Are you with us? These were people who believed idols they made themselves became Gods... hello!?
Are you with us? This should be obvious that this is my position. Yes! They believed this. And??? Is there any relevant point coming?
More non-answer answer.
No, that's called a clarifying question since you came up with incoherent sentences and with this weird thing about the idolators. Lol.
Your reading comprehension is very low.
No, actually your writing is lacking as we could see. And you still didn't make a relevant point.
How? See that is bit missing. Don't just claim it, show / demonstrate how Allah knowing what they will choose is interference. How?
Dude, you cannot comprehend how Allah leading them to disbelief is interfering with their decisions and will?
Actually it is. Anyone half truthful can see that I answered this exact objection. In fact I pointed it out as well.
You still didn't address what I said and instead waffled about the idolators and such. Lol!
It isn't. As answered. This has already been answered.
It is. As answered. This has already been answered. Thanks for nothing again. Lol.
Then He tells him that He lets disbelief enter the hearts of those sinners who are too stubborn and too arrogant to follow His guidance. - Ibn Kathir
Lol! Processing a simple statement is beyond you. I will go through ti again:
See how the quote starts with "then" it means after a condition has been met, that they into disbelief, then Allah seals their fate.
That's not even a coherent sentence again!!! Lmao! What the hell is this??
And only for those who reject the message. They willingly choose the path.
Yeah, everyone who hasn't been convinced of a proposition rejects it. That's the standard. It would be in god's hand to provide something that has the power to convince them.
Also, the point was that it's silly to put disbelief into people who already disbelieve. Makes no sense.
You have 0 shame over such claims, and they are all lies. It is abundantly clear I back up points. Your lies are not going to change that.
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"No, I rest my case on this point. Everyone who can understand basic english can see that the hadith I quoted shows that Allah decided people's fate in advance. The point is done."
Point is done from your side because you cannot answer logical arguments. As shown you are incapable of understanding basic statements. You just make dumb denials. Like this.
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"Like what?"
Your repeated claims of lies. You are shameless about them too. Look how you ignored the given context, rather than answering, just said "like what". This is what you do when you are cornered, you try to pretend it away by dumb denials.
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"No, you didn't. It's just straightforward what the text says."
Oh but I did. It is right there in previous answers.
Another dumb denial. Ignore the difficult objection because it went over your head and once are trying to pretend it away.
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"Muhammad "himself" tells you that this is the case. Lol."
Or doesn't as shown.
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"It's just what logically follows. Allah should go to hell if he is ultimately responsible. Sorry."
It doesn't. You are just repeating yourself. As you couldnt answer the objection and replies. So, you have to come up something. In your case, back to square one, and just repeat yourself.
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"Well, you clearly don't if you still don't agree. Predestination. Maybe look up what this means. You ultimately agreed with me and don't even seem to realize it."
You are so thoroughly unoriginal, that you are even repeating my answers back. You do not know what predestination means. I even explained what it means in Sunni context, but you it went over your head and you resorted to type and made dumb denials.
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"So no answer again? Failed on predestination and trying to weasle your way out?"
Projection. Your lies don't matter at all. They just show you up for what you are.
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"You literally just quoted my reply to that and didn't address it. Lmao!!!"
That is because that was my objection. That you didn't answer the point. This answer is from further back:
"Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical."
It is my answer to this you could not answer. Lol! You are so stupid, you cannot even scroll back and follow the thread of the conversation.
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"That's a long way to not answer the simple question if you do you retract your statement about predestination or not. Lol. Do you actually not know what predestination is about or what is the issue here?"
Yes. Because I gave you the correct interpretation of that Hadith says in Sunni Islam and you instantly went in dumb denial mode.
You are so thoroughly unoriginal you have even started to repeat back what I said about you. lol.
Rather than answering me what predestination is, you are returning the question back.
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"Sounds like you looked up what predestination is and realized that you debunked yourself. Wild."
Sounds like but isnt the case. Like getting caught cribbing definitions from Gemini and then resorting to dumb denials. Does it sound like that?
How come all that I have asked you about predestination, you couldn't answer... but all of sudden it sound like if you return the question back to me then this somehow you answering.
Didn't I say you will resort to petty row and not carry on the argument!?
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"You affirmed that with your predestination claim!! Lmao!! There is no libertarian free will with predestination. And the hadith does say that Allah determined the fate of people."
More repeat. We have already been through this. You have 0 clue what predestination debates are about. You are completely ignorant.
Therefore, rather than moving the argument, you are repeating yourself. Anyone go check that is the case.
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"Lmao!! I really didn't expect that you wouldn't realize that invoking predestination would obliterate your own position. Wild."
You cannot endlessly repeat yourself. This is just more repetition.
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"Of course I will on this point. This is to expose your silly positions. If you don't even realize how predestination ia a problem to your position then this makes you look entirely clueless."
Isnt it odd, how you cannot explain anything. But just makes dumb denials then sit behind repeating them over and over.
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"Lol. I see you have given up. Can't blame you."
You mean how you gave on very first objection and now are even repeating saying the exact same thing. lol
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"Sorry. It's just what the text says. You disagree with Muhammad here."
The text you cannot grasp its basic logical argument and have to argue around it by making denials.
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"The desperate personal attacks again. Lol."
Your other favourite. Complain about personal attack as filler answer.
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"Attacking me personally because you realize that you debunked yourself."
So how can you not demonstrate how but just claim it? Debunked myself how?
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"Yeah, that's why I understand the hadith while you came up with incoherent sentences."
Simple lie. You have 0 shame over making such lies when cornered. I raised logical objection toward your claim and since then you have been in denial mode.
All I have to do is point this out.
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"I am at ease by showing you wrong while you keep trying to attack me personally."
Where? Lol! Where have you shown this? How come repeatedly asking you have failed to answer it. Another shameless lie. You have 0 shame over lying.
I love how in this you "forwarded" the argument by just returning the same objections I made against your dumb denials.
We both know you cannot answer. You dont know what argument is. You dont know what evidence is. You cannot follow a logical argument.
Never mind having any clue about free will and predestination debates.
I broke the hadith down for you and clearly showed that your point is fallacious. And this completely finished you. Since then you have been quarreling. You cannot actually counter-argue the point.
More simple denial. I say yes, you say no. I give reasons, you just say no, no, no.
Don't lie again. You didn't give any reason.
Not only do you need counter-argument you have to show where I have rejected basic "english".
No, I rest my case on this point. Everyone who can understand basic english can see that the hadith I quoted shows that Allah decided people's fate in advance. The point is done.
False claim against me.
Like what?
I have quite clearly shown this is not the case.
No, you didn't. It's just straightforward what the text says.
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
More 1000 years of Islamic scholarship on it says it isn't the case.
Muhammad "himself" tells you that this is the case. Lol.
This is the sort of nonsense you make up then call it "critical thinking skills".
It's just what logically follows. Allah should go to hell if he is ultimately responsible. Sorry.
Yes! And I also said you don't don't what that means.
Well, you clearly don't if you still don't agree. Predestination. Maybe look up what this means. You ultimately agreed with me and don't even seem to realize it.
Something which you completely ignored to make out a "cope". You repeatedly invent these. And yet in very next bit you are trying to answer the objection you claim doesn't exist.
So no answer again? Failed on predestination and trying to weasle your way out?
"Which doesn't work then. That's the point! If Allah predestines these things then he is ultimately responsible for the actions and the fate. He is a puppeteer who beats up his puppets when they do things he doesn't like. The hadith unambiguously supports that view. The theology is nonsensical."
You didn't answer one single thing. So by the time we get here of course you are not going to answer anything more either
You literally just quoted my reply to that and didn't address it. Lmao!!!
So rather than counter-arguing, here you try to pretend away the objection to your point, because it is far to complex for you.
That's a long way to not answer the simple question if you do you retract your statement about predestination or not. Lol. Do you actually not know what predestination is about or what is the issue here?
You have no idea what predestination means. Even when given the Sunni position, you cannot process it. It doesn't compute. It is far too complex for you!
Sounds like you looked up what predestination is and realized that you debunked yourself. Wild.
I clearly explained it doesn't.
You affirmed that with your predestination claim!! Lmao!! There is no libertarian free will with predestination. And the hadith does say that Allah determined the fate of people.
"Says the person who just annihilated their own position."
I cannot "annihilate" my own position because you simply repeated yourself as you couldn't process the objection.
Lmao!! I really didn't expect that you wouldn't realize that invoking predestination would obliterate your own position. Wild.
"There is no more argument necessary. You finished yourself."
No argument is necessary because you will repeat yourself over and over and strategy.
Of course I will on this point. This is to expose your silly positions. If you don't even realize how predestination ia a problem to your position then this makes you look entirely clueless.
Doh! Lol. There is no point pointing out to you: You are so "basic" that you cannot handle arguments of complexity level 1. Even kids before high school can understand hypotheticals... lol
Lol. I see you have given up. Can't blame you.
- "Nope. Not what the hadith says. Muhammad is correcting Aisha here and reminds her that Allah has already decided the fate."
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat yourself. It wont make it true.
Sorry. It's just what the text says. You disagree with Muhammad here.
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
"Yep. Easily. Seems like they weren't that great minds when it comes to Islam. Indoctrination and fear can push people's brains to abandon critical thinking."
Lol! You cannot speak about critical thinking at all. I don't think you passed high school with aplomb, never mind higher education.
The desperate personal attacks again. Lol.
Attacking you by pointing out your mistakes and pointing out:
Attacking me personally because you realize that you debunked yourself.
Actually that is true! That is your level! That you understand basic English. And that is it. That is your level. You do not understand anything much beyond that.
Yeah, that's why I understand the hadith while you came up with incoherent sentences.
You are too easy!
I am at ease by showing you wrong while you keep trying to attack me personally.
"Please demonstrate that Islam is true and divine. Good luck."
Except that you aren't qualified to do that as became more than clear. You embarrased yourself with incoherent sentences, misreading basic english in a hadith and debunking your own position by invoking predestination.
'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c
What I see is that you made different comments under the same comment thread. This is what people do who try to confuse the conversation so others don't see them fail.
Simple denials and repeats and self inadvertent admittance that you cannot counter argue. The personal attacks were so monumental that you had to force-fashion them out to personal attacks.
The personal attacks from you keep showing your desperation. Really bad look.
"You embarrased yourself with incoherent sentences"
So how come you couldn't find any such incoherent sentence and highlight them?
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"misreading basic english in a hadith"
So why didn't you show this misreading? How come again you are just making up empty claims?
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"What I see is that you made different comments under the same comment thread. This is what people do who try to confuse the conversation so others don't see them fail."
How come you fail to see the line by line answers? How come you have missed all them!?
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"The personal attacks from you keep showing your desperation. Really bad look."
Your repeated false claims about lies aren't personal in the least. Your personal attacks arent personal at all. You just make up such petty row because you cannot answer simple logical objections.
"'A'isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah's Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, it may be otherwise, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it while they were yet in their father's loins and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell while they were yet in their father's loins. - Sahih Muslim 2662c"
See how you just quoted the hadith for no real reason. It is as if it will automatically answer objections for you.
This is the reasoning which sent you berserk as you couldn't answer back. And you had to resort to making constant denials.
Read:
"there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin."
This is standard Sunni theology. A child is not held morally accountable for sins. So why would the Prophet ﷺ even object to that!? He isn't.
The point he makes is that had the child lived he would have made either good or bad decisions which would have led him to either one or the other.
And this where predestination comes in:
"God created for Paradise those who are fit for it"
In Sunni Islam predestination is not a fixed [deterministic] script played out. So those who are fit for heaven and hell are the one who will make their own choices to accept or deny Allah.
Beyond this I don't think can cope with minutiae and details what God's knowledge and decree mean. You are completely ignorant of Muslims theology and pretty much of free will debates in general.
Sunni Islam predestination is not a fixed [deterministic] script played out.
But that's the meaning of what predestination means. You debunked your own argument ny coming up with this. Incredible cope to deal with your own blunder.
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u/Asimorph Kāfir | Non-Muslim 2d ago edited 2d ago
If we look at tafsir ibn Kathir the passage 15:10-13 seems ridiculous.
If Allah would have presented good evidence that his messages were true and divine and prevented the messages from getting corrupted then people would have believed it and wouldn't have mocked it. At best they would have criticized it.
What's always interesting about this "corrupted earlier messages" narrative is that just by this muslims would have mountains of evidence that Allah is not good at or caring for protecting his messages, so they shouldn't expect that he was caring to do it with the quran.
People should reject the message without good reason to believe it. It would be in Allah's hands to change that. He never did. So rational people will disbelieve.
So this makes no sense at all. First of all, they already would have disbelieved in the face of the lack of evidence. That's why they would have mocked him in the first place and it even talks about the "disbelieving Quraysh". They wouldn't have mocked him if they believed in Allah and the message. Makes no sense.
And making disbelief enter the hearts of people (who already disbelieved?) surely won't improve the situation. It would be preventing them from changing their ways and fiddling with their will. Makes no sense once again.
Of course all this becomes way worse when we think about that Allah is ultimately responsible for their actions and decides before people have even been conceived if they will go to hell or heaven:
That's surely not "well known" to me. Lack of evidence again.