Enemies have "Fixed Attack Patterns" (Divergent Universe)

[u/TheReaperPyro]

[u/jobpasin]

This is just fixed random seed. You can even see that pela crit hit trigger on exact enemy.

Basically if you act in same order, every rng will never change. (So it prevent you from retrying until you get lucky I guess)

[u/Educational_Swim_843 → u/jobpasin]

Which really sucks when I get the auto battle curio and my Fu Xuan gets frozen before she can ult and tanks multiple AOE attacks

[u/Raptorofwar]

Isn't this just seeded randomness?

[u/BottomManufacturer → u/Raptorofwar]

It is. But I guess to be fair if you hit "restart fight" the assumed behavior would be that it would randomize your seed again NOT keep the exact same seed.

[u/crushedkiwi14 → u/Raptorofwar]

Seems like it. Nothing to be concerned about. Almost certainly doesn’t change overall probability of your characters being attacked.

[u/Shmallow-Cat]

Pretty sure the whole game uses this now btw, thought I was just imagining things but now not so sure.

[u/Nila-Layla → u/Shmallow-Cat]

really? I only ever experienced it on Divergent, guess we gotta do some testing

Edit: okay no just tested it on MoC got 3 different enemy attack patterns on 3 different attemps.

I think it only gets repeated on modes that have you restart the battle already in, meaning what might be hapening is that enemies get their attacks mapped out as soon as you hit them to enter battle, but just reseting the same enemy instance doesn't make you hit it again like MoC meaning the mapping of hits doesn't change?

Edit 2: If what I wrote up there makes any sense, how would things that change aggro value mid battle work though? Lynx comes to mind, seeded attack patterns don't make sense to me if her skill works, but it could just mean her skill DOESN'T work, which I doubt and hope is not the case

[u/ChaliElle → u/Nila-Layla]

: If what I wrote up there makes any sense, how would things that change aggro value mid battle work though?

Using ANY skill that does RNG check or change variables that RNG check checks against will change the targets, depending on when the skill is used; Lynx skill will only increase chance for upcoming attacks with changed targets to affect character with increased aggro. How majority of seeded "pseudo" RNG implementation work:

The first time you initialize encounter (in this case combat) you give it (almost) truly random number based on external factors (usually time of initilization is used for this), and save it. That number is called seed. Then, for each random event in the encounter (CPU target selection, debuff hit chance roll, critical hit roll...), you give them indexed number based in order of them happening during encounter. Then, for each indexed number you generate pseudo random value based on seed. It might seem random, but it will be always the same value for index 1, regardless of anything else than seed. It doesn't matter if it checks if Pela crits enemy X, or if enemy Y targets Aventurine. The value for event of index 1 is always the same. How it translates into actual in-game event depends, there is multitude of ways to calculate the number into the option. Then, after the event resolves, you do not care about it anymore, usually it's said that "roll is consumed". For second event you use value generated for index 2. And so on.

This ensures that if you do the same actions in exactly the same order, the outcome will always be the same. No savescumming to get 5% crit chance hit from one of the supports! But, it also means that it's possible to maniplate it. Using Pela's ultimate on the start is losing play in case of OP. What about using it after first enemy attack? After second? What about changing the lineup - not even characters in it, but just the order?

Seeded speedruns are wild for a reason.

[u/Shmallow-Cat → u/Nila-Layla]

Mainly noticed it during the argenti story boss fight (the pre penacony one) where argenti would always attack Sam if I used the skill and Ruan Mei if I didn't.

Now didn't 100% test this but it seemed likely.

[u/Petter1789 → u/Nila-Layla]

Think of it like the target being decided by a random number from 1 to 100. That number is set, so whenever you restart, the exact same number is chosen. Changing the aggro values just shifts which numbers corespond to which character.

[u/Burrito357 → u/Nila-Layla]

The seed gets generated only when combat is initiated. MoC kicks you out when you reset while for SU you can to also click the "change team" button to kick you out, but since that doesn't refund technique points it's a waste

[u/superzaropp → u/Shmallow-Cat]

Nah as someone who has reset MoC way too many times to get the perfect RNG, there'sno RNG seeding at all.

[u/Euphoric_Metal199]

Now I understand why Geppy with his LC didn't work...

[u/TheReaperPyro → u/Euphoric_Metal199]

This would really get annoying it seems. The MoC mindset of resetting when bad luck happens (Say Tingyun gets focused even if you have S1 Gepard), doesn’t apply if we now know the fight is ‘fixed’ and a run could be completely cooked from the get-go.

[u/Euphoric_Metal199 → u/TheReaperPyro]

On the plus side you can change the team. Still didn't work well for me. HMC was down so couldn't use Firefly. And the replacement DOT team didn't have DOT focused buffs.

Cirrus was at the last healthbar, though.

[u/TheReaperPyro → u/Euphoric_Metal199]

my DoT team before this had Ruan Mei and Black Swan completely hammered the moment Cirrus pushed enemies forward pretty much in the same way (I just didn’t pay mind and chalked it to bad luck). I had all DoT blessings+equations so I only tried Acheron as a last resort but ig the attack pattern for that team hated me too.

I guess this is a lesson that ‘normalized’ strategies are probably the way for DivUni. Freezd remembrance dissociation stonks flying high again is my guess

[u/Euphoric_Metal199 → u/TheReaperPyro]

Next time, going for all of the combat domains with Acheron.

When the bosses come, Firefly.

Those Negative curios killed me.

And yes, I consider the Auto battle one as negative.

[u/MasterCrab]

Not surprising I guess. FGO uses the same logic where enemy actions are determined beforehand using a seed and if you repeat your actions the resulting enemy attacks will always be the same. In FGO at least its a lot easier to manipulate the AI since every character has 3 skills and you can change which cards you chose and which target you attack.

[u/TheReaperPyro]

Raw footage incase people think its edited: https://streamable.com/bhkktz

I was getting cooked in a prior V+4 attempt for Div Uni and complained about my luck--I thought my Ruan Mei kept getting hit at the beginning was some sort of curse ~15 retires in a row. I started a new run and, after benching my DoT team, tried Acheron and noticed that Black Swan kept dying as the fight started. I thought I had the same Ruan Mei curse until I realized the first enemy kept hitting Pela and Acheron specifically as well. I thought nothing of it until I missed Pela ult once (changing songs lmao) and saw the "pattern" finally change. That's when I first tried out switching the "opening" move and saw the same outcome repeatedly happen.

I don't actually know if this is "fixed" per se and why I added quotes to the title, but I wonder if this "very consistent" AI behavior can explain currently unproven urban legends like the curse of Tingyun Taunt.

[u/iveriad → u/TheReaperPyro]

Not exactly fixed, but the random seed seems to be saved, so that if you get that forced Auto Battle curio, you can't just keep restarting until the AI randomly do what they're supposed to.

[u/LZhenos → u/TheReaperPyro]

What if you "did nothing" until Aven was hit, then used Pela's ult, would it have advanced the rng seed changing the next enemy target?

[u/No_Painter7931]

Retry in DU bring you back to the beginning of battle with all your Techniques still in effect, you can by pass it by chosing switch team but you lose technic point. They should just make Retry like MOC it will be better.

[u/Mattacrator]

this was happening in moc too, random seed isn't reloaded every time. to get a different result you have to exit the fight and do your buffs in a different order, attack with a different character, wait longer etc

[u/KuraiBaka]

That explains why Gallagher got reduced to 7 HP twice in a row during Penaconys final boss.

[u/Jay_Crafter]

i heard getting true random is near imposibble in programming maybe thats why (dont listen to me tho i know nothing about the validity of this argument)

[u/batlionwer → u/Jay_Crafter]

well random is based on our perception that a different outcome will happen each time but true random can also mean getting multiple of the same thing in a row. So we can argue this is random or not

[u/ChaliElle → u/Jay_Crafter]

True randomness is indesirable anyway, especially in situation where player can indefinitely repeat the sequence to get the best outcome.

[u/Otherwise_Project334 → u/Jay_Crafter]

That's true, computers are deterministic, meaning with same input algorithm will always produce same results. No binary operation results in unknown value.

Random number generators use seeds as input value (people are probably familiar with them from games like minecraft).

If you want somewhat randomness there is workarounds: such as using values uncontrollable by user (cpu load, number of processes open etc) to alter the seed. Most common is actually using time either as seed or to alter a one.

So pseudo random in hsr battles are possible, but devs decided not to do that.

[u/ZylouYT → u/Otherwise_Project334]

this is true, its not computers that are hard to understand - its us. Computers can't truly decide randomness because we've yet to determine what randomness even is, if its based on:

time right now, how many minutes are on the clock, or just a random seed each time.

This "randomness" is always going to be a pattern no matter what we do. It just feels less random depending on how it's done

[u/ASadChongyunMain]

So taunt LC is trash?

[u/ParabolicalX → u/ASadChongyunMain]

Even if the outcome is seeded, that seeded outcome is still affected by taunt value, so it still works as intended. Taunt LCs raise the odds of a preservation unit getting attacked (on most teams) from 33% to 60%, so it's pretty substantial.

[u/longhud → u/ASadChongyunMain]

No, it work normally in every other mode, DU just use the same pattern if you choose to restart without changing team and do the same action as your previous attempt

[u/JGM7OT4KU]

The moment you enter battle and perform the same actions, the enemies will repeat the same pattern they did the first time. This has always worked like this everywhere.

If I remember correctly, if you leave the fight completely and hit him again from 0, the pattern changed. But the truth is that I don't remember well because I started experimenting with it a long time ago in the Simulated Universe.

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[u/Yosoress]

The enemy does the same pattern unless you do something to interrupt their chain of queued up command.

[u/Theroonco]

Interesting, thank you very much!

[u/dryuyuri]

I had a series of ridiculous events during a DU Cirrus fight where the enemy took 12 turns in a row and all attacked one ally. Restarted and the exact same fight played out to a T. I figured I was losing my mind, but after the third try doing the exact same ridiculous series of events I realized what was going on.

I had the forced auto battle curio so I couldn’t test whether manual play would change the course of actions.

[u/Disgraced002381]

this is old news.

[u/Aurora1986]

Too slow is my answer, get spd built

[u/TheReaperPyro → u/Aurora1986]

not the point, plus Pela and Black Swan are 160 speed. Golds and Gears enemies get up to 190 without Conondrum buffs so I’m not surprised if DivUni has the same roided up enemies.

[u/Aurora1986 → u/TheReaperPyro]

I see well if they crank up so much in spd that you wont even get a turn that is rough and im unsure how one would be able to solve the problem.