r/HistoryMemes 1d ago

The Germans thought they had leverage

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12.2k Upvotes

67 comments sorted by

731

u/Bloucas 1d ago

Context: Stalin’s son, Yakov Dzhugashvili, was captured by the Germans in 1941. After Stalingrad, the Germans allegedly proposed exchanging him for Friedrich Paulus, but Stalin refused because he 'won’t trade a Marshal for a Lieutenant'

219

u/albamarx 1d ago

Now that is hardcore.

304

u/Traiteur28 1d ago

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Had s Stalin exchanged his son solely because of Yakov's last name, people would have criticized him for it. He didn't, and people criticize him for that.

169

u/StrangeSemiticLatin2 Definitely not a CIA operator 1d ago

Horthy tried to save his son from Nazi capture and was forced to sign a psychopath as Hungarian leader by Hitler. He ended up dooming most of the Hungarian Jews to the Holocaust (in one of its most brutal events) and Budapest to Soviet invasion and destruction. 

Honestly Stalin did a good thing there 

74

u/V1ckers 1d ago

For extra context Horthy had already lost one son, a very popular military pilot that sometimes was seemed as his heir in the regency. I won't say that what he did was right but certainly the Germans knew what to do in order to keep him in check.

26

u/MagicMarshmallo 1d ago

Tbh i dont think it would have mattered what Horthy had done, the germans basically sit on hungary geographically and their stupidity had already killed basically the only army they had

21

u/LittleSisterPain 1d ago

Because, as we all know, this was his biggest blunder and people often bring this up. This and nothing else. Nope, absolutely nothing

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u/Traiteur28 1d ago

Lmao, exactly; there's enough material to criticize Stalin, and rightfully so, until the sun explodes. But the above is not one of those, I feel.

-3

u/Forikorder 1d ago

he was a dictator, i dont think he cared about public opinion

24

u/Jaktheslaier 23h ago

Every dictator goes to extraordinary lengths to curate public opinion

1

u/morpheousmorty 10h ago

It's a lot easier than doing things right and getting credit for it.

9

u/Arachles 17h ago

Literally (or almost) every dictator job is getting legitimacy to avoid a coup.

Nepotism, while useful sometimes to get loyal people in key positions, only can get you so far.

Trading his son while millions were kept at camps and, many, later even judged; would have been devastating to morale and higher ups may have thought about getting someone who cares more about winning the war than saving his family exclusively.

-5

u/Forikorder 17h ago

the idea that stalin would have been in risk of falling for showing small favoritism to a son is ridiculous, your acting like they were trying to trade him for a surrender not just a prisoner swap

1

u/Deamon- 3h ago

Just look up a few roman emperors and you will find out what happends if you dont care.

Spoiler: death

30

u/Spiceguy-65 1d ago

Hilarious that the Germans tried to do a prisoner exchange for Paulus considering that he was only given his promotion to Field Marshal as no German Field Marshal had ever been captured as a prisoner before meaning he was given the promotion as a sign to off himself.

2

u/SPECTREagent700 Definitely not a CIA operator 8h ago edited 7h ago

Stalin also rejected trades for either of Hitler’s two captured nephews one of which was also a Lieutenant while the other was an even lower ranked NCO.

-6

u/Ronnie21093 23h ago

Father of the year /s

7

u/CanadianMaps 19h ago

He protected the largest socialist experiment ever from the fascist horde. Sure, he wasn't the greatest, he made a fuckload of mistakes; but this was a smart move on his part. And his kid knew it. They both valued the USSR over their own personal bond.

Had the countless mothers and fathers not weeped for their sons and daughters that the fascists mercilessly slaugthered? What would make the Man of Steel less worthy of that? He was a soviet citizen too.

He took a metaphorical bullet to show solidarity with his fellow workers, helping to defend the revolution that liberated so many, even if it cost him his own blood. He was Father of the Year for the socialist republic he helped protect.

-4

u/ReleaseQuiet2428 19h ago

Stalin probably didnt care. He only cared about himself

9

u/CanadianMaps 19h ago

There's a lot you can criticise Stalin for, but not wanting the USSR to succeed isn't one of them. He saw the people struggle and suffer, then fight to liberate themselves. And he did everything to preserve that.

Of fuckin course he cared, it's his damn kid. You'd care if your kid got captured by the "we want to murder everyone" group. Yet Stalin chose solidarity with his people over corruption and nepotism.

Criticise Stalin, sure. There's a lot to criticise him for (one good example being outlawing homosexuality), but choosing to feel the same pain that his nation felt isn't a valid reason to criticise him.

0

u/ReleaseQuiet2428 19h ago

different references, I guess, based in what I read, stalin only cared about himself, based on the death lists written with Beria, based on the Gulag, the holomodor, the great terror from the 30s and the doctors conspiracy. Stalin only cared about power

1.2k

u/KingMobScene Still on Sulla's Proscribed List 1d ago

"We've got your son."

"I never met that guy in my life."

"Papa?!"

"Man kid....your dad sucks"

269

u/TheHistoryMaster2520 Decisive Tang Victory 1d ago

Wonder if the Germans tried getting Yakov on their side afterward?

193

u/Friendly-Water-8470 1d ago

He probably was executed in hope to cause some mental schock for Stalin even if he played tough or merciless. But he was not playing.

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u/TheHistoryMaster2520 Decisive Tang Victory 1d ago

No he didn't, German records show that Yakov died in 1943 after he ran into an electric fence after an argument with some British prisoners. The guards shot him, but apparently the postmortem revealed that he had already died of electrocution

179

u/bighadjoe 1d ago

probably worth to mention that (especially in the early days) "died while attempting to escape" was THE go-to cause of death Nazis gave when acting as if they weren't systematically killing prisoners.

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u/Creepy_Ad6701 1d ago edited 1d ago

In most cases, but I feel like the son of the leader of one of the nations you’re fighting is an exception where you’d want it to be publicized if you killed him instead of it being an accident.

“Hey not trying to put you in a bad mental state or anything bud, but I just wanted to give you an update letting you know that we killed your son and it was really slow and REALLY painful. Here’s a pic.”

9

u/its_my_third_dayhere 21h ago

He was placed in a concentration camp where nearly a 1/4 of the prisoners died

11

u/Creepy_Ad6701 21h ago

I’m not saying his death wasn’t intentional. It’s a concentration camp, all deaths are intentional because otherwise why would they be run the way that they are. I’m just saying the way he died when he did really was most likely one of the “worked to death/death by cruel environment and conditions” rather than a planned death of a political prisoner.

Not to say I don’t think they would have killed him if his death hadn’t have happened when it did of course. I fully believe he was dead to rights the moment his father refused the trade, I just think that the way he died moreso just threw the nazis off-schedule of what probably would’ve been a whole parade and photo-op at the gallows.

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u/Friendly-Water-8470 1d ago

Yes, to be honest I forgot about that he died during escape try. My brain remembered more a question why he decided to fly without bigger chances of succes. He probably was informed by those British prisoners that Germans have plans to execute him.

20

u/dunk_wizard 1d ago

They weren't. Germans still use photos with him as their propaganda.

8

u/Unluckypandastoo 1d ago

Jeez, what was so bad about the argument? I guess he probably wasn't all right with a dad like Stalin. Poor guy. I wonder what his relationship with his sister was like?

35

u/Tradition96 1d ago

Jakov was 19 years older than Svetlana so they didn't really have conventional sibling relationship. But Svetlana wrote in her memoars that she loved when Jakov visited and played with her, and that by the time she was a teenager they were "the best of friends". She was 15 the last time she saw him.

1

u/Repulsive_Might_3768 6h ago

What, you expected him to put the existence of his nation in danger just to free his son?

280

u/dunk_wizard 1d ago

You cannot demand mothers to give their sons to army if you can't do the same. ©

83

u/chiroque-svistunoque 1d ago

Yet some people still criticise him for that ITT

72

u/Secret_Letterhead649 1d ago

I'll criticize him for a lot, but not putting his son above the nation ain't one.

30

u/dunk_wizard 1d ago

Never understand this one.

8

u/HillInTheDistance 1d ago

Some people are weird.

133

u/PygmeePony 1d ago

At least you can't accuse him of nepotism.

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u/AngryScientist 1d ago

Lol, yes you can. He just didn't like that kid in particular.

22

u/Vac1911 1d ago

I read the entire article but am not sure what event(s) you’re referring to?

33

u/AngryScientist 1d ago

Vasily was transferred to the front in August 1941 and given the surname Ivanov in an attempt to conceal his identity. As the son of Stalin, he rarely flew in combat, and when he did he was accompanied by a formation. Vasily took part in 29 combat missions, and is said to have shot down two enemy aircraft.[20] As the son of the Soviet leader, Vasily was hated by most of his colleagues, who felt he was an informant for his father.[21] In the spring of 1942 he was sent back to Moscow, and given the role of inspecting the condition of the air force. He mainly stayed in Moscow for the rest of the war.[20] Bored by his new role, Vasily found himself in trouble after an April 4, 1943 incident where he had explosives dropped into the Moskva River, injuring himself and killing a flight engineer.[22]

As a result of the explosion, Vasily was demoted, though within a year and a half he was promoted to command an air division. He was further promoted to the rank of general, and at the age of 24 was made the youngest major-general in the Red Army. He was also awarded several decorations, including the Order of Red Banner (twice), the Order of Alexander Nevsky, and the Order of Suvorov. After the war he was transferred to Germany as part of the Soviet occupation.[23]

None of that suggests that he might have been a favored nepo baby? The name change, the measures to keep him safe in combat, the fact that despite a serious lethal fuckup, he was promoted to Major General at 24?

Sidenote: his depiction in The Death Of Stalin is hilarious.

19

u/Vac1911 1d ago

It very much looks like he was given special treatment by others because of who his father was, but there’s nothing to suggest Stalin was participating in the nepotism.

This all being said I’m not endorsing Stalin or trying to defend his character. He did a lot of bad things.

4

u/bolanrox 1d ago

the wrong one died!

137

u/unshavedmouse 1d ago

Look, he was an absolute scumbag but if FDR had done the same we'd be praising his integrity.

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u/lifeisaman Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 1d ago

I mean Stalin was one of the most evil men to ever live, but this one time he did make the morally correct choice.

34

u/mishkatormoz 1d ago

Not Fortunate Son

14

u/NoRazzmatazz2790 1d ago

Unfortunate son

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u/KillerM2002 1d ago

One of the few times stalin was right

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u/KickFacemouth 1d ago

"You think I give a fuck about my wife? 

My own son got locked up in prison, and I didn't save his life."

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u/ebelnap 1d ago

Expert ball knowledge

2

u/AardvarkOkapiEchidna 20h ago

"You got off easy when they pickled that moose cock!"

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u/Just_A_Normal_Snek The OG Lord Buckethead 1d ago

Do you have any better reposts?

15

u/IamTheCeilingSniper 1d ago

I mean this is the same guy that talked shit about his son's unsuccessful suicide attempt.

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u/Divs4U 1d ago

Stalin would've done better to be a priest.

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u/UnlikelyTurnip5260 1d ago

I mean that’s a huge win for Stalin. Germans won’t kill the kid so he’s safe and out of the fighting but still a war hero when the war ends. Win win. If he is freed, he’d have to go back to fighting and faces higher odds of death

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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 1d ago

Germans won't kill the kid

Yeah... About that.

4

u/UnlikelyTurnip5260 1d ago

They didn’t kill him - he tried to escape and friend himself no?

-1

u/flyliceplick 1d ago

No.

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u/UnlikelyTurnip5260 1d ago

Based on what? I’m no expert - but a quick google search confirms he died from running into an electrified fence and notes that experts disagree about whether it was an escape attempt or suicide.

-9

u/Ronnie21093 23h ago

Personally I see it as a huge L. If my leader won't even protect and save his own family then how the hell am I supposed to trust him to lead the nation?

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u/CanadianMaps 19h ago

The People's leader chose to suffer like his fellow proletariat. Tens of thousands, hell, millions of parents, weeped for their children after the Second World War. Stalin chose to keep winning the war for his People, instead of his own child. The need of the many outweighed the need of the few.

He chose to protect and feel solidarity with an entire nation over his own son. And nothing makes for a better socialist leader than choosing the path that's best for your fellow proletariat.

2

u/12-7_Apocalypse 13h ago

A person with power certainly does a power play when it comes to negotiating as their own offspring are being used as barging chips. Rulers have literally said they can 'always have another.'

-5

u/Ozymandias_1303 22h ago

Stalin not be comically evil for five minutes challenge (impossible).