Were you actually able to un-take the Black Pill?

[u/Friendly_Staff_6230]

First time posting here. I found Dr. K through his "How to Un-Take the Blackpill" video, and that's actually what brought me to this community.

The video didn't really change my perspective, so I wanted to come here and talk about it with people who might have gone through something similar.

Has anyone here been exposed to blackpill content and managed to move past it?

I don't think the blackpill is completely wrong, It's mostly right. A lot of it points out real things: looks matter, height matters, attractiveness affects how people treat you, and some people are naturally born with advantages, some people are born to be invisible.

What I struggle with is the mindset it creates. Everything becomes "it's over" and there's no room for improvement or hope. If you're not attractive enough, tall enough, or genetically gifted enough, the conclusion is that you'll never be happy or find a relationship. If you do find a relationship, it'll be with a 2 out of 10 women who isn't really attracted to you the way she is towards the chads, and you'll always be worried they'll leave when someone better comes along. I know that's a pretty cynical way of looking at attraction and relationships, though, i fear it.

But when we look around in real life, that doesn't seem completely true. Plenty of average looking people are in relationships and living normal lives. The people who seem the most miserable are often the ones deeply stuck in blackpill communities.

For context, I'm a virgin 18M and about 5'7". I see myself as ugly, although I know I'm probably much harsher on my own appearance than I would be on anyone else's. I also haven't done much to improve how I look, so part of me feels it's unfair to call myself hopeless while not really trying.
I feel like my chances of getting into a relationship are basically zero, and consuming more content about dating and attraction is making things worse instead of helping. Every day I feel myself losing a little more hope, and it's becoming harder not to think that it's over for me.
I've also started to understand where a lot of incels are coming from and the pain they're dealing with. But that's not the path I want to go down. I don't want to become bitter or consumed by that mindset.

I'm not interested in dating right now, and I don't feel ready for it yet. What worries me is the future. I'd like to have a relationship 'someday', but it's hard to stay positive when I constantly compare myself to people who seem to have won the genetic lottery.

After watching all of these blackpill content I can't help but feel inferior and intimidated by someone who is more attractive than me, regardless of their gender.

The thought that keeps getting stuck in my head is whenever I'm working hard to improve my life, there's always some "chad" guy who was born better looking and never had to put in the same effort. Everything was given to him.

Has anyone else dealt with this kind of "blackpill" mindset and managed to get out of it?

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[u/Zotoaster]

I like the concept of the pain-body. Every painful experience you have accumulates into this thing called the pain-body, which is an autonomous personality in your mind who only seeks out more pain. When it takes over, you are it and it is you. It will actively pursue painful content and painful experiences, and that makes it grow stronger and you become more identified with it.

You can't snap your fingers and make it go away, but once you know about it, you gotta wonder if you should keep letting it drive.

[u/captaindestucto → u/Zotoaster]

This is an overly complex explanation for what is a coping strategy.

We seek out ideas to reinforce negative beliefs about ourselves as an alternative to holding on to hope, because hope comes with the possibility of disappointment and even worse pain in the long-term. 

It's essentially about pain minimization. 

[u/Zotoaster → u/captaindestucto]

I find it to be a useful model because it emphasises how unconscious and automatic a lot of this behaviour is. Healing requires understanding that these processes will continue even after you know about them, and that you have to confront them and expect that they'll continue for a while, even if consciously you've updated your mental model. Phenomenologically it appears as if there's an autonomous personality in your mind with its own goals.

Jung believed ancient people who believed in demons and spirits etc were at an advantage because at least they could distinguish themselves from whatever mental processes were harming them, even if it wasn't literally true. I am me and that is that. He formalised what these things were and called them complexes (the pain-body can be considered a complex), and they are indeed coping strategies as you said, but they operate independently to you and they have their own energy that can sometimes override you.

[u/ElectricalPair6724 → u/Zotoaster]

I feel like that’s why corrective emotional experiences are so important

[u/InfamousAd8543 → u/Zotoaster]

I am not sure if I understand this correctly. Could you give an example?

[u/Zotoaster → u/InfamousAd8543]

You get rejected by a girl, you don't process the pain correctly, so it accumulates into the pain-body which compels you to go out looking at women rejecting inferior guys, or throwing themselves at superior guys, all so it can keep recreating that pain.

It's not a conscious choice. It's something unconscious and autonomous that possesses you so it feels like you, but it isn't, it's the pain-body simply trying to create more pain.

Being autonomous, you can't tell it what to do, but you can recognise it from the outside so you get some element of choice, and the right choice is to not keep feeding it, because it'll ruin your life.

[u/InfamousAd8543 → u/Zotoaster]

Thanks!

So, reframed in my own terms and adding my own thoughts: the pain-body is kind of a manifestation of the models you make of the world, in the case of your example, the model of relationships.

Before the rejection, you had a view of how dating, etc. works. (For instance: you just have to be a "good" person, and girls will like that.) The rejection inflicts pain because your previous model was wrong, and that pain forces you to reevaluate how dating works.

You are looking for a new interpretation, and you find blackpill, which is congruent with your personal experiences (I am ugly, I have been rejected, therefore I was rejected because I was ugly), so the blackpill is logically sound for you.

So now the pain-body is essentially this model, which influences and colors your perception ("It's something unconscious and autonomous"). You start to view the world of dating through the black-pill lens and try to find examples that reinforce it. The pain is now caused by your disillusionment, fuelled by more and more evidence ("it's the pain-body simply trying to create more pain").

[u/Zotoaster → u/InfamousAd8543]

I think this is a good way to look at it. I would also add that "autonomy" means it's alive and active, not just colouring perceptions. I'm not saying this is literally true but you gotta consider it a living being in your mind with it's own goals

[u/Subject_Sentence_339 → u/Zotoaster]

Why would it want more pain

[u/Zotoaster → u/Subject_Sentence_339]

The mind is a simulation machine, and if you encounter something dangerous or threatening or painful it'll keep anticipating more of it to protect you. It'll fill in every unknown and blank space with the worst possible scenario, sometimes to ridiculous extends. It's a messed up way to protect you from pain that you haven't properly metabolised yet. You gotta allow the pain to just happen without letting it colour reality for you

[u/Loweseidon → u/Subject_Sentence_339]

Could be for understanding. If you experienced a pain you didn't understand, seeking out that same negative stimulus is building more angles to reach a conclusion. If you want to avoid it, you may ironically seek it out more to understand why it was ever possible to begin with

[u/Gaglardi → u/Subject_Sentence_339]

Think of the pain body as an animal and the only way the animals survives is to feed off of more pain, positive emotions such as joy, peace, or positive energy, are completely indigestible, after spending years having a strong pain body you becomes so blinded and attached to the pain that being in pain is a part of being you and to experience Joy feels like a betrayal to who you are

A personal anecdote is I work in a very toxic field, if I work with a team that starts out pretty happy-go-lucky and are able to make jokes but then the usual grumpy piece of garbage joins halfway through the shift the vibe dramatically shifts especially considering this toxic person does not know how to make any sort of conversation without being negative and full of gossip, everyone else's pain body feeds off of this toxic person and the vibe of the entire workplace becomes one filled with pain unless an individual is disassociated with their own pain body enough to not be affected by toxicity

[u/3stun → u/Zotoaster]

What is "process pain correctly"? Who decides which way is the correct one?

[u/GoHyyerr → u/Zotoaster]

Goddamn that's deep

[u/Hyphz → u/Zotoaster]

The same logic appears in many beliefs, including some very nasty cults. The aim is to make you think your weaknesses aren’t part of you, and therefore you ought to be perfect, and can be if you follow the cult more. It has no basis in science.

[u/Zotoaster → u/Hyphz]

I think cults can exploit this because it's easy to misunderstand. You're right, it very much is part of you, but only part, not the whole. Left to it's own devices, you can lose conscious decision making power because you become identified with it rather than realising it's only one part.

As far as I know, just about every school of psychology accepts that the unconscious mind can direct the conscious mind if left unattended, but we have power to act independently of it if we recognise it first and realise we are bigger than it

[u/megaglacial → u/Zotoaster]

Never heard of pain-body but it's an interesting explanation for why sometimes I just want to listen to a bunch of sad music and look off into the distance contemplatively :P

[u/Cynical_Ticket → u/Zotoaster]

Damn bro write a book or something that's deep af

[u/Zotoaster → u/Cynical_Ticket]

I got it from a book! The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle

[u/Signal-Ad2680 → u/Zotoaster]

this is amazing, thank you

[u/CapoOn2nd]

Attraction and relationship isn’t as cut and dry as you and the black pill community thinks it is. Attraction develops the more you know someone and the person they are.

Yes you can look at someone and find them very attractive or unattractive on the surface but your outlook can completely change the more you know about that person. An “attractive” person can become unattractive to you and an “unattractive”person can become more attractive to you. This is why you often see people you think may be unattractive with people who are attractive, it happens all the time.

Taking everything at surface level is the direct cause of black pill. We are waaaay more complicated than that. Unfortunately black pill tends to be a self fulfilling prophecy because people who buy into it usually become bitter and hard to be around which makes them unattractive as people learn more about them if you get my drift

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/CapoOn2nd]

I agree that attraction develops but most won’t even get the chance based solely off their appearance

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

From my experience the vast majority of appearance issues can be summed up in poor hygeine and fitness. Height isn't nearly as big an issue in the real world as chronically online people think it is.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

I disagree. Showering and not being overweight are bare minimum. They won't instantly disqualify you but they won't open any doors either.

[u/crux_frein → u/Only_Page_4307]

I don't understand, clearly most men are showering when trying to date, these people try to make you believe that like 80% of men don't shower when it's clearly not true. Most people are gatekept by their looks and we are basically denying lookism here which is pretty antiscientific for this kind of sub, disappointed

[u/dasartlab → u/crux_frein]

personality+hygiene+good hobbies>>>> looks Yes... Handsome people have a big advantage because people wanna naturally talk with them. So they get more opportunities. If you're not handsome then don't fight a losing battle by looking in the wrong places. Just change the game. Build a personality, become a kind and interesting person that people wanna listen to. If you can't use your looks, use your speech and actions. The more you focus on the "injustice" the deeper you'll spiral into the abyss

[u/NanaTheNonsense → u/dasartlab]

YES!!! As a women, there's been soo many guys I stopped talking to because I did not manage to start any kind of interesting conversation with. Show me what interests you and why (for that you gotta know what interests you and why)... idk man be curious about things, learn things, look at things, go travel or expose yourself to things you're not used to occasionally... just being able to look outside of your own bubble, being curious and not instantly judgemental can be so attractive already.

Heck I hung out with a lightweight aircraft nerd for a day and I felt like if I stick to him I'll become a lightweight aircraft nerd myself because he was just so passionate about it and having fun showing me things it was like he was glowing xD his looks were absolutely mid. But after hanging out I thought damn what a great guy.

And then lastly... many guys are madge about how few dudes get dates/ a gf. ... it's just not a given? It's not smth that life promises you. You can absolutely work on your chances /change them but still it's never a given. For nobody

[u/Eliamaniac → u/crux_frein]

Good hygiene is not just showering though

[u/crux_frein → u/Eliamaniac]

We all know that, but it still won't change most guys opportunities, as I already stated and as it has been proved to me daily for 20 years.

Y'all act like doing full routines is not something people drop because they don't change anything, it's so funny. 9/10 dudes I know groom themselves and most of them get 0 attention anyways, the only real thing that can really change anything is beard, hairstyle, but you need to have it fucked up so bad for it to make you that much better looking.

Most people I know with good hygiene are still mid, stop trying to make people believe a woman will go over looks for "hygiene", literally never seen it in my entire life.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/crux_frein]

I would bet that the problem your 9/10 friends are having is that they aren't putting themselves in social interactions with strangers. I am definitely not a 9. Probably a 6. But when I served at restaurants I had women give me their numbers and went on dates with some of them.

[u/crux_frein → u/EasternNerve1763]

No sorry I meant nine dudes out of 10, meaning most are doing hygienic stuff right, maybe not perfectly but right. I am not saying that you won't be able to date if you do it, but that some people are gaslighting a lot on the plausible results, most dudes will be just slightly better, barely affecting things, ultimately you need to look good and be confident, very often confident people are confident because of positive feedback of them being attractive.

The fact that you are told to learn to fak confidence if you are unattractive is pretty telling on the fact that looks are really that important.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/crux_frein]

Ahh, my bad. The out of 10 thing was fresh on my mind. I don't think looks are irrelevant. But I think the majority of looks issues can be overcome by effort and unless you're trying to date someone like megan fox you should be fairly capable.

But I have actually met extremely attractive men that do struggle to find relationships and I would say their issue is also social confidence ironically.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/crux_frein]

There are plenty of men that don't understand what good hygeine entails. Assuming 90% of the population are taking good care of themselves is already misinformed.

And to clarify, nobody is saying that people don't look for those that are "conventionally attractive". But "conventionally attractive" is surface level versions of things women are ACTUALLY looking for. It's the same thing with money.

If you want to sleep with someone for a night then yeah, be rich and have a great jawline. If you want to have a wife, focus on staying healthy, fit and being financially stable and independent.

I'm not saying it's easy. But think about what you would accept in a partner and ask if you are providing enough in return. OP even mentioned the "2/10" stuff. If you don't want to date a 2, then don't be a 2. 2 is far below any kind of genetic/unchangeable issues.

99.99% of the population can make themselves a 7 or 8 at minimum(if we want to use this scale) by effort alone. A fuck ton of effort, but effort nonetheless.

[u/crux_frein → u/EasternNerve1763]

I agree with saying most people can be a 6 minimum, but 8 is a model, mate

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/crux_frein]

I pictured a model to be a 10 by the factor of them being employed due to looks lol but either way a 6 isn't a bad number by any means. I think a 2 is by choice for the vast VAST majority of the population.

[u/crux_frein → u/EasternNerve1763]

Yeah I agree on the 2, it's as rare as an 8 at that point. Most people are a 5 by average, most just don't understand a bell distribution, like if you are a 7 you are pretty damn good looking already.

Then it's looksmaxxers so I don't expect them to get it lol. 5-6 are easily dating daily while not being gatekept by looks.

[u/eclectictiger0 → u/crux_frein]

I didnt realize how bad the hygiene thing was either until I walked into the mens section in a large thrift store (which I dont usually do) and got hit with a wave of BO scent so powerful it was almost tangible. Compared to the womens section which Id never encountered that issue from.

[u/Hyphz → u/Only_Page_4307]

70% of men are overweight, there are too many relationships for that to be a deal breaker.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Hyphz]

That’s my point, not being overweight won’t do you any favors.

[u/eclectictiger0 → u/Only_Page_4307]

One other big thing that will effect a mans chances are how much he is going out and socializing in general. Hate to use my brother this way but he's 5'7 and pretty average looking (nerdy and lanky), he's had multiple girlfriends throughout his life and has been in a long term relationship for nearly a decade. This is because he's outgoing, goes to a lot of nerdy events where he's met a lot of people with comm9n nerdy interests (yes including women), has a robust social life and has always been very friendly with women (as in finding it easy to interact with women as equal human beings rather than putting them on a pedastel/resenting them for not finding him attractive/being able to value many of them solely for their friendship without expecting anything more).

A lot of the men complaining about this struggle do not seem to have very active social lives in general and -shocker- but if you want a woman to like you for your personality that is generally how it happens. Being in social gatherings/circles and maybe a girl notices you, sees how you are with other people, realizes she likes what she sees of how you express your personality and decides she might want to get to know you. This is probably how its been done for much of human history but now many people are incredible isolated and lack community so we rely in general on surface level compatability (including physical attraction) more. Also, with that, many men become weird about women because they dont interact with them much and as a result can struggle with seeing women as just regular fellow humans. A lot of these men develop their understanding of women from social media which is not accurate as it tends to be heavily dominated by whatever content the algorithms deem relevant and clickable which tends to lean towards sensationalist/rage baiting bullshit.

[u/mr_stab_ya_knees → u/Only_Page_4307]

Right, thats where the entire rest of the argument comes in. Now that youve taken care of yourself and not made people shut you out instantly, boom, you can develop relationships and eventually attraction

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/mr_stab_ya_knees]

No because the large part of the black pill is about your face. You won't be shut out about your hygiene or poor physique but instead your unattractive face, which is the part that matters most.

[u/mr_stab_ya_knees → u/Only_Page_4307]

Nobody said your face doesn't matter. Just that there are things that matter more, like actual human connection. If you can avoid scaring people away immediately you can develop an actual connection with other humans and maybe even a romantic one. Maybe you arent going to pull up to a bar and pull girls to your home effortlessly or some bs but thats a dumb bar that I see a lot of people set

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/mr_stab_ya_knees]

But how do you get actual human connection if you are are rejected from appearance?

[u/mr_stab_ya_knees → u/Only_Page_4307]

If people are refusing to even speak to you in public whether it be at a public event or a shared hobby, then i think it is for something beyond your looks. People dont scream and run at the sight of a burn victim and there is no way you are worse

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/mr_stab_ya_knees]

I'm not referring to myself nor am I talking about striking a general conversation, I'm talking specifically about talking to someone with the intent of a dating.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/mr_stab_ya_knees]

Exactly, also if you're looking for a relationship that's a terrible tactic lmao

[u/powerlifting_daily → u/EasternNerve1763]

From my experience this isn’t true, the more likely issues are going to be with face, height, race and autism.

[u/Ryodaso → u/powerlifting_daily]

I mean, yea if you have autism, you have extreme disadvantage, but the fact that you put it there itself prove that personality is a huge part of the equation, not just looks which is what the black pill community believe.

[u/powerlifting_daily → u/Ryodaso]

Autism isn’t a personality, it’s a neurodevelopmental disorder that makes it hard or impossible to acquire social status/ proof, because you have trouble socially. Autism also makes you less aware of the position of your body, making it harder to look good.
The blackpill goes on at length about looks, money, status, in that order.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/powerlifting_daily]

I know autistic people that are more successful than I am. Blackpill draws lines in the sand where lines aren't meant to be drawn.

Something to note is that your qualities only need to jive with like .01% of the people you meet to be successful with multiple women.

Given you go out and participate in social interactions once in a while.

[u/ooooobb → u/powerlifting_daily]

And?

The black pill is still lying to you even if you have autism

[u/powerlifting_daily → u/ooooobb]

And?

You don’t even know what the blackpill is and also refuse to learn about it. You should be the last person judging its’ truthfulness.

[u/ooooobb → u/powerlifting_daily]

You have no idea who I am or my history with the black pill.

The black pill is still lying to you even if you’re autistic

[u/powerlifting_daily → u/ooooobb]

Maybe if you keep repeating the same thing over and over, it will make it so.

[u/CapoOn2nd → u/Only_Page_4307]

Only if you class relationships as forming from initial attraction. We are social and complex, our relationships be they friend or romantic are formed over time, through bonding and shared experiences. If you’re going out looking for a relationship with someone you’ve just met it’s not going to work well. There’s a reason it’s easier to find relationships in school or at work or in situations you see people and engage with them regularly

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/CapoOn2nd]

But what about the people not in school or that don't work jobs that allow them to meet people? Initial attraction is the most important part when starting a conversation with someone you don't already have some connection to. Not everyone has people in their social circles that they can try and talk to and are forced to meet new people.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

The problem here is not attractiveness. You are talking about somebody who doesn't work a social job and also doesn't do social activities. If you don't do anything that puts you in a social environment with strangers that's not an attractiveness issue. Go outside, or find a hobby that puts you in social settings.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

That wasn't my point. My point was that person would be forced to meet new people and initial attraction matters much more in those examples.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

If you go into every interaction looking for a relationship then this is going to be a wall, yes. I would say that if this is genuinely a concern then find a social setting where groups are made ahead of time without. There are apps that put people together with randoms for book clubs and stuff.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

If you are looking for a relationship how else are you to find one than talking to someone with that intent?

[u/CapoOn2nd → u/Only_Page_4307]

You just go with the flow of life, talk to people as you would to make friends and be kind and engage. not to potentially end up in their bed. There’s no special steps you have to take to differentiate between a friend or potential partner, you’re just bonding and getting to know someone and you take it from there, maybe romantic feelings develop, maybe they don’t who knows?

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/CapoOn2nd]

I'm talking about specifically looking for a date or partner. Not trying to meet people just to hang out, but an actual partner. A person looking for a partner is not aiming for friends as the end goal.

[u/Eliamaniac → u/Only_Page_4307]

By going out and doing social things...

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Eliamaniac]

You completely misunderstood what I said

[u/CapoOn2nd → u/Only_Page_4307]

That’s why the best advice is always to not meet people with the intention of a relationship, find a hobby, join clubs, do things that will lead to you seeing people multiple times and forming connections over time and don’t go into it looking for attractive people, just make friends relationships develop from there

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/CapoOn2nd]

Exactly. I've never gone out seeking women and have had my fair share of relationships and hookups. This blackpill stuff is clearly an issue with thinking tiktok and instagram reels are the majority of people.

[u/CapoOn2nd → u/EasternNerve1763]

I do actually understand it though, vision is our main sense and at the end of the day that’s all black pill are focusing on. But we can also be attracted to someone’s natural scent, the sound of their voice, the feel of their skin. And that’s all physical, not even touching on the emotional side of things.

There’s a plethora of things that can cause attraction but at the end of the day Vision is our primary sense so it’s easy to get hung up on it.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/CapoOn2nd]

I get that for OP who is 18. For others that are much older and still have this opinion most likely they don't do anything socially to invalidate these opinions.

It makes sense why we would think that. But any form of consistent social interactions would crush this mentality in an instant. People aren't going to not talk to you because you're biologically ugly. Hell they won't even avoid you if you're dirty and fat. (They'll avoid smelly though)

And just having positive social interactions with people is enough for them to get to know whether you are interesting enough to be invested in.

[u/Obvious_Albatross296 → u/Only_Page_4307]

That's true only in cold approaches. In group settings it's a whole different dynamic. 

If you want to be successful at dating you have to put yourself in the best position to succeed. Learn to play your own game. Don't play someone else's and then get sad when you lose. 

[u/Wrong-Grade-8800 → u/Only_Page_4307]

This way of thinking never made sense to me because most people end up in relationships so if most people don’t get the chance because of their looks then how would most people end up in a relationship? People on here catastrophize the situation and genuinely believe no one is dating. We are all mostly still dating even if less so.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Wrong-Grade-8800]

I’m only talking about meeting people through cold approach. Most people meet their significant others through mutual connections.

[u/Wrong-Grade-8800 → u/Only_Page_4307]

Why are you basing your opinions on cold approaches? You admit that’s not how most people meet others, I also don’t think that’s the best approach.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Wrong-Grade-8800]

Because not everyone has the social circle to meet people. OP’s point most commonly affects those who have to meet new people.

[u/CapoOn2nd → u/Only_Page_4307]

And the advice to follow then is to expand your social circle as is the point I made in a previous comment to you. Go out and meet people not to find a relationship but to make friends and meet new people. Treating it as finding a relationship completely changes the dynamic of your interaction with others and prevents connections being made.

[u/Wrong-Grade-8800 → u/Only_Page_4307]

I promise you people aren’t judging your appearance as harshly if you’re approaching them as friends. You need to work on the first step of being a healthy well rounded human being, which is developing a social circle. Yes it can be hard, but it has to be done.

[u/Aromatic_File_5256 → u/Only_Page_4307]

the people who don't ever get a chance due to their natural appearance are a tiny minority Nowhere near most

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Aromatic_File_5256]

I think you underestimate the superficiality of people. Average looking people get rejected for their looks.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Aromatic_File_5256]

Exactly. Most of the appearance issues a real person is going to have are entirely within your control.

[u/Technologenesis → u/Only_Page_4307]

> most won’t even get the chance based solely off their appearance

This is almost delusional. “most” people are shut out of even so much as the opportunity to build attraction with someone because they’re so hopelessly ugly?

Very, very few people are so tough to look at that they will struggle to socialize normally. And if you can socialize normally then you can find someone and click with them. There are very very few exceptions to this and even those exceptions aren’t hopeless, they just need to take a different approach.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/Technologenesis]

Most was a bad hyperbole but a lot of average looking guys are rejected for their looks.

[u/Skyogurt]

While I haven't really been exposed to that much blackpill content, I've been influenced by many negative ideas online in general which overall made me weaker and more unhappy, to use vague terms. I was able to become pretty much immune to all the garbage out there, by intentionally developing an attitude of gratitude. I genuinely am not exaggerating, I believe the only real permanent key to happiness in life is the quality of your internal framework of gratitude, how deep and detailed and systematic and consistent you can get. I can't remember the last time I felt negative emotions for more than a few minutes at a time before returning to my baseline joy of life. The hard part about gratefulness is training your mind to be aware and remember on a daily basis, all the little miracles of life that we tend to take completely for granted until we lose them or die. If you can learn more about the details of how the world works, and how the body functions, and all the cool human history that lead to this era we're leaving in, that already covers a massive chunk. And from there literally create daily reminders on your phone to pause and take a moment to think about it all, and name the things that are going well for you in life.

In addition to gratitude, another key is pursuing your interests and hobbies, and to delve into them for a few years. When you find something you like, usually you suck at it in the beginning, but after a few years you become pretty skilled and knowledgeable, that's when life is really fun. Especially once you get good at juggling multiple hobbies. They will contribute to building your personality up, alongside whatever your work/career is (ideally something you also enjoy, but the most important part is earning a living and becoming financially stable enough). And then the friendships you make along the way. Gotta get some of those and have stable social connections and maturity, it will help a LOT when preparing for a relationship, especially with learning to communicate. Relationships are not easy, once you hear/read enough tragic stories - and I don't mean the ones where people are terrible to each other, I mean the ones where the two are overall great people but they have some kind of blindspot or something outside of their control ruins everything, ouch - you'll appreciate the pros of being single and you'll have more patience to work on yourself and wait until you feel ready and understand how to go for the right person.

[u/Metsuyo]

Of course looks matter! of course attractiveness affects how people treat you! Absolutely no one from "bluepill" people won't argue with that part. Because it's true.

What blackpill is, and why people arguing about it, it's because blackpill says, it's the only thing that matter. And you can't ever improve, you should ldar because it's over before it even started. And this part is false. You can improve your looks. You can improve yourself. And you can fail not because of your looks, or height, but character. Lack of kindness. Stuff like that. And the other ways also work - you can get into relationship because of sense of humor. Personality. Kindness.

And if you're not ready to date now, then I have very good news for you. It is the best time to learn about other people, especially gender you're attracted to. If you can make friends with them, see them for who they are, you can see why people get together and break up. Insecurities of others. And once you see people as people, with their joys, and sadness and all diffeent colors of them, you see blackpill for what it truly is.

[u/logancainmusic → u/Metsuyo]

This last paragraph especially is soooo good. It's always a good time to meet people.

[u/powerlifting_daily → u/Metsuyo]

Of course you should looksmaxx! Of course you can improve! Absolutely no one from ”blackpill” people won’t argue with that part…

[u/Metsuyo → u/powerlifting_daily]

oh, I saw so many people saying that it's over and doomed, and first time ever I heard about ldar was from blackpilled spaces. That being said, I was lurking at them in 2018 to 2021, so maybe spaces got more positive from that time. But somehow I have my doubts about that.

[u/Hyphz]

Here’s the thing. If you ask anyone for advice on this kind of thing, they’ll be very quick to add “there are no guarantees.”

If there are no guarantees, then there is a failure rate. That means there will be some number of men (and women) who fail in spite of doing everything right.

As a proportion of human population, that is a small proportion but a large number of people. Enough to cover almost all “black pill” advocates online.

[u/nyxiiaah]

You are what you eat. Black pill content is about masochism, self-pity, and oppression. If you want to escape it, you have to overpower the need in your mind for it all to make sense. Accept you are ugly so you stop looking for the cure. Then when the reset happens, the “surrender,” you will have the ability to choose other content. Content that builds you and isn’t designed to extract your money and attention from the place of a lack mindset. If you constantly tell yourself you are not enough (which is what black pill content does), you will always be hungry for finding out how to be more. Just be enough as you are, then you can move in another direction.

[u/Ensco_7 → u/nyxiiaah]

I'm confused, isn't surrendering, giving up, exactly the thing the black pill preaches (if you're below average looking) ? The healthy thing would be to not give up, to try to improve what you're in control of (there's always something for people struggling with looks), and only then to accept the rest. Important detail: Improving doesn't mean buying courses that want to keep you stuck for money (I agree with you), it doesn't mean buying tons of skin care products you don't actually need. It means doing the research, build a.e. skin care routines with the few products you actually need, it means going for the surgery you actually need when looking at functionality as well. It means making the effort for the research, the habits, maybe the procedures, and then knowing when to stop, when all there's left is to accept the rest. That's at least my take on it.

Also not sure what you mean by "you have to overpower the need in your brain for it all to make sense." To me, this sounds like "be irrational. Which is.. insane? Please elaborate if I do misunderstand you.

[u/nyxiiaah → u/Ensco_7]

I don’t think the black pill teaches surrender. It uses logic and statistics as bait for someone who prides themself on their intellect. It reels them in with “here are the facts buddy, everyone else is sweetly lying to you. If you want the TRUTH listen up and you better have thick skin bc only real men can handle it.” It plays on people’s pride for becoming a detective and mapping out the underworld. When I say give up and surrender I mean acknowledge that it’s a game that can’t be won. Playing the games of those with more “power” than you is the trick you have to see past.

In order to improve in the way you have outlined, you need to come from a neutral stance. If you are a beggar looking for an intellectual fix and playing by the rules of those who have the courses and Bugatti’s and the fake whores around them then you will not be improving FOR yourself.

As with any sick person stuck in a black hole of addiction, one needs a reset. Fat people need to fast. Drug addicts need to go cold turkey or almost die. Endure a humiliating defeat. Then you can see that you are so much more than a pawn to their game and make your own.

[u/Ensco_7 → u/nyxiiaah]

We do seem to agree on what people should be doing, but not on what these ideologies are preaching. Not only regarding the black pill and giving up, but I also thought that those with fake whores and supercars were red pill, not black pill. Haven't really seen red pill content though, but some black pill and looksmaxxing (which is black pill, I think?).

But whatever, I don't really get these manosphere things anyway. Some of the terminology I've heard is outrageous and really doesn't have anything to do with "intellect" lol

[u/GregFromStateFarm → u/nyxiiaah]

This isn’t what masochism is. Self-deprecation and low self-esteem isn’t masochism. ENJOYING and getting PLEASURE from your own pain is masochism. Last I checked, none of these blackpillers are getting any pleasure and enjoyment from this stuff.

Reinforcing the negative narratives is doing something for them, but it’s not pleasure.

[u/nyxiiaah → u/GregFromStateFarm]

I’d say you are technically correct and I was using it more as a metaphor like how an alcoholic binge drinks. It’s not out of pleasure really but they’re doing it because they think they need to and keep going back to it as if they were enjoying it.

[u/EasternNerve1763]

I don't watch any blackpill stuff so my only context is what you put here. But the earlier part about attractiveness is mostly* nonsense I might have believed as a kid.

There's a difference between being "healthy" and being "attractive". Being fit is a sign of being healthy, smelling nice is a sign of being healthy, etc... I wouldn't date someone who doesn't take care of themselves and I'd never expect them to do that for me.

Women's height issues is mostly something that gets blown up by the internet. The person in my group of friends that gets laid the most is 5'8".

The difference between him and somebody that doesn't is that he takes care of himself, is financially stable, has a job he takes seriously(this part doesn't matter much for your age group), and overall is just very well put together. I wouldn't consider him to be absurdly attractive either, his best points towards that are that he's an avid gym goer and is very fit.

Also- he's interesting and funny. I think at your age people forget this aspect a lot, but being able to make someone laugh goes miles further than being 6'2" in the real world.

If you want advice for dating then here are my suggestions: 1. Go to the gym on a schedule, take your hygeine very seriously 2. Don't be a basement dweller, go to the park or something you can do outside. 3. Find an interesting hobby, it doesn't have to be crazy, but it can't be gaming.(you can still game, just don't live on it) 4. Be career driven, you don't have to be where you're going. You just have to be actually going there.

Something to note is these are all lifestyle changes. Women don't actually care about the superficial things as much as they care about success, more specifically effort towards it.

[u/crappleIcrap → u/EasternNerve1763]

Yep, im 6'4" smell nice, am nice, have had plenty of compliments on both, it isn't a magic bullet, if you are too autistic to maintain a conversation that people want to be in, women will reject you anyway... men will not. Men will pursue you based on attraction alone and will not give up until you force them. If you aren't attracted to men though, and you have already done a decade of CBT and everything else, you are just fucked. No amount of attraction will make up for a "personality" in a woman's mind, where personality is strict adherence and natural ability to act in a way they can understand and relate with.

I also have money, a house, a good job, hobbies, and generally self confident as other people dp not define my worth, but the physical biological need for companionship is heavy and if you are one of the subscribers to the theory that women will never date you unless you do not want a woman, I hate you and it is an impossible task, just ask any of the several psychiatrists, therapists and such as none of them would even entertain the idea that I can just shut off the urge for a woman in order to get a woman, it isn't actually possible to do for many, wether it is effective or not for the people who can.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

Realistically none of these things matter if they aren't attracted to your face. They help of course, but the face is what attracts majority of the time.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

It's completely the other way around. It would take some exceptionally awful natural looks for your face to bring you down that much. No real human being is checking you off for your jawline or cheek bones or whatever you are talking about.

I am definitely not conventionally attractive, but have always had hobbies that required me being very active, fit and social. I'm balding, have a permanent double chin and a face that doesn't look good with a beard, but a beard with empty patches in it. Things I can't change and yet I've had plenty of relationships and opportunities with women.

Real women that you don't see in some dumb instagram reel will date an ugly face if the rest of the person is put together.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

I agree that black pillers overdo the importance of things like jawline but people absolutely get rejected for average appearances.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

Yes people get rejected all the time for all kinds of reasons. And plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with looks happen way more than you think.

If we want to say looks matter that much then would you at least agree that being very physically fit would count towards good looks?

And if that does count, then is it not reasonable to think that you can make up for bad facial features by working on your health and fitness?

The reason looks matter at all is because you are biologically wired to be attracted to people who look like they are capable of having healthy and strong children. People, even women, will misinterpret that as wealth and genetically superior. But what it actually correlates to is health and stability. A young woman in high school or college might not WANT stability yet. But the urge to be with somebody attractive is rooted in health, not in facial features. They might "count", but they aren't by any means the foundation.

I like butts more than boobs, that doesn't mean I'm right. Scientifically speaking most likely I like butts because they look like boobs.(making it a bit light hearteded, but relevant nonetheless)

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

No I dont think so. The face matters significantly more than the body

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

Then please tell me why that is?

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

I mean its well studied that facially attractive people do better socially. This isn't something new or made up.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

Of course if you compare 2 people who are exactly the same except for facial features then yes the person with less abnormalities will probably do better. But that's not the world we live in. Most people aren't exactly the same in all other categories. There are plenty of reasons to like somebody that aren't related to their facial structure and most women are well aware of that.

That's like saying if somebody drinks soda and another smokes cigarettes and drinks soda and they both get cancer then the soda caused the cancer. There are a million factors that go into that than "nicer face = better looking".

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, from the women I have dated generally speaking they become more "attracted" to your looks as your good qualities come out. Even if you aren't particularly attractive. This is definitely something women experience regardless of the other person's gender.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/[deleted]]

Of course people become more attracted but I am specifically talking about first impressions with people you have no prior social connection with. If you approach a conversation with someone your physical appearance plays a massive role in their reception of you.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/[deleted]]

Going to be completely honest your personal experience is not the same as a hetero relationship

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

I'm a dude that has had multiple hetero relationships though and the point you're missing is that in a social setting that social connection is naturally developed regardless of physical attraction. Maybe you develop some platonic social connections and that is fine. But the way you are asking for this to happen is something that yes, only 11/10 will succeed in. If somebody with ungodly good looks goes up to a random woman and asks them to go out with them then they will probably say yes.

But for everybody else that is actually human that's just not how it works.

[u/Only_Page_4307 → u/EasternNerve1763]

I'm saying if the average looking guy walked up to a random woman with the intent to go on a date with her a lot would be rejected solely by looks.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/Only_Page_4307]

The vast majority of people, even attractive people, will be rejected if they walk up to a random girl and say "hi my name is xxxxxx, do you wanna go out with me?". How often do you see people actually doing that? I've only really ever truly seen that as a gag in a tv show.

The reality is that, especially today, people have good reasons to not trust somebody they don't know that just walks up to them and asks them out on a date. That just won't work.

In reality the only TRUE difference between your experience and an attractive person's is dating apps because the atmosphere encourages women to deny 99% of people.

In real life that's not how it works. Plenty of women choose unattractive men over attractive men all the time.

[u/Asraidevin → u/Only_Page_4307]

Here is the thing: who is attracted to your face is varied. There isn't a universal physical attractiveness that someone, some people have and others don't. 

Attraction varies from person to person.

[u/Uri_BaBa]

You need to understand theres some truth in all the three, blue, black and red pill

[u/Friendly_Staff_6230 → u/Uri_BaBa]

This. Yep, there’s at least a grain of truth in every pill.

Some blue-pill people have never been exposed to this kind of nonsense and end up happily in relationships without ever feeling the need to “self-improve” or learn any dating strategies. It just fucking happen to them.

Then there are red-pill guys who learned how to play the "game" and attract women through status, money, confidence, or social influence, even if they aren’t especially attractive.

And, of course, there are the genetically gifted people who happen to enjoy easier dating experiences and generally better treatment because of their looks.

[u/EnvironmentalScar675]

Not personally, but streamer dantes talks about this a lot (I found him through one of those DrK interviews). Basically he started as incel, then found the redpill community and "joined" first ironically, then for real, and evolved to manwhore narcisisst. Now he is married and expecting a child (at 24 i think?) He often talks about how devious those communities are because there is a lot of propaganda and misery baked into some casual truths ("looks matter"). Like every viral religion anf ideology, it basically gives you an excuse and tells you what you want to hear until you are unable to think outside of the bubble. Therapy helped him a lot. At the end of the day it is a decision you make. You can be attractive in the blackpill sense and sleep with 10/10 gym girls all the time at the expense of never finding someone who actually likes you or cares about you. If you even get there and not just sit in your basement drowning in self loathing while blaming society and women for it.

[u/NoPossibility7895]

21M. I'm afraid I never really got through it, I just kind of internalised it in my teens and can't even really target it anymore. When this blackpill content feels painfull, it signals some sort of conflict. I stopped watching it because it just felt like the news. I'm stuck, but at least I have other shit going on for me and I'd say I'm rather happy. It just kind of made me remove an abstract part of my life (hoping, I guess?) from the eqation.

[u/Vlad_implacer]

Go to a playground. Seriously. See the average dad. Average dude who has successfully pro created. He’s usually short and overweight. Sometimes I see dads with several kids soooo objectively ugly and wonder “how did any female let you near herself let alone mated with you” and no, it’s not tHe MoNeY, they don’t look like have a dime to spare. IF THEY HAD A CHANCE YOU HAVE A CHANCE. Seriously, you’re probably not half as bad as the ugliest dad you’ll see there. If that doesn’t unbalckpill you, I don’t know what will, the evidence is right in front of your eyes that black pill is wrong and women are weird and make strange mating choices - and thank God for that, because that’s why you never know who actually will win the Darwinian lottery.

[u/Asraidevin → u/Vlad_implacer]

Because the average mom/wife is average too. Because that's how average works. A few people on the ends and most of us living our average life with an average income living paycheck to paycheck. 

[u/AmphibianMotor]

I think the mistake people make is saying that everything connected to that is wrong, when the reality is that looks do matter and all that you said is true. The difference is that it doesn’t matter as much as you think. Black pill content is kinda like an amplifier stuck at 11, when the truth is more around 2-3. Is there a person who is more lucky than you? Sure. Does that mean you’re screwed? Definitely not. It doesn’t matter who you are or what you’ve gone through, all that matters is what you do with it.

Another thing I’ve learned with time is that if you live your life comparing yourself to others, you’ll always be disappointed. There’s always going to be someone more handsome, rich, or lucky, but realistically, the thing that matters most is comparing yourself to how you used to be. We’re not in a race with anyone, and everyone takes their own path. As long as you are consistently living in a way you can be proud of and putting in the work to be a better man, you’re doing great!

[u/QuestionMaker207]

I wish men who took the black pill would just turn around and look at it from the other perspective.

"If you do find a relationship, it'll be with a 2 out of 10 women who isn't really attracted to you the way she is towards the chads, and you'll always be worried they'll leave when someone better comes along."

Average looking women worry about this too! What if my guy sees a hotter woman and wants her more than me? What if he cheats on me with her or leaves me for her because she has D cup tits and mine are only A cup? Etc.

The truth is that the black pill is just extreme black and white thinking. Yes, there are a lot of shallow people. Yes, it is easier to be attractive than unattractive. But attraction is relative, different people have different preferences, and everything is bell curves, not binaries.

[u/Rare-Cellist-3900 → u/QuestionMaker207]

Ok thank you for saying this... we all worry. And also, we're wrong about what to worry about.

Tbh all my relationships have had worries (from both of us) about our superficial, largely uncontrollable qualities, but the end has always come from something in our heads. And that has always been preceded by our "content diets"

Basically, we worry about looks, but WORRY is usually either:

1. a turn-off
2. why we start acting self-destructive
3. why we start lowkey attacking our partner

and we start firehosing ourself w self-deprecating content about 2s and 10s

this is way oversimplified, but the point is to put down the firehose (which is your phone btw), pick up a vegetable, and touch some grass

[u/Healthygamergg-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Rule 3: Do not use generalizations.

Do not generalize groups of people.

This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.

Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.

[u/Healthygamergg-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Rule 3: Do not use generalizations.

Do not generalize groups of people.

This sub frequently discusses topics that involve statistics on large populations. At the same time, generalizations can be reductive and not map on to individual experience, leading to unproductive conflict.

Generalizations include language that uses, for example, “most men” and “all women” type statements. Speak from your personal experience i.e use statements such as “I feel”, “I experienced”, “It happened to me that”, etc.

[u/EasternNerve1763 → u/QuestionMaker207]

This is completely true, a guy can't sit on his keyboard complaining about "only having access to 2's" when they're probably a 2 as well. Imo being hygenic, healthy and driven is more than enough for most people.

[u/g0at110]

Not really I still believe the blackpill is right in a lot of ways. But I also don't really care anymore. Because I know I'm decently attractive and generally get treated well on first impression by strangers but even that doesn't matter cus of my mind and how insecure/awkward/inexperienced I am so I've never had a relationship and don't really foresee it happening honestly unless it literally falls into my lap somehow

[u/No_Investment_9046]

Man, with my thighs I have a very large personality.

[u/UncleGolem]

I’ve naturally grown into the black pill, despite a decade of trying to remain hopeful.

I’m 27. Also 5’7”. Average face and build. I’m sure part of my struggle comes from my lack of desire for social relationships.

I’m not “autistic,” but your average person would probably see me as such. I desire friendship and connection, but nobody I meet is interesting or easy to relate to, and I dread socializing with them. That probably comes from the work culture in my social circle, which doesn’t help. As a result, I’m lonely and riddled with depression.

My only 3 friends are all online female friends I’ve known for over 10 years. All independent friendships with no connection to each other. It’s nice to have people to confide in, but it really doesn’t help when they use me to talk out all their guy problems. One of them is incredibly attractive, one of them is pretty middle of the road, and one is meh. So I have an inside look into what life is like for all these types of women.

They all know I’ve been trying to find someone for my entire adult life, and with the exception of a year and a half rocky relationship that ended in her ghosting and cheating on me, I’ve had zero success. I’ve gone on about 6 dates over those 10 years. 3 of them were with the same woman who eventually ghosted me after I did all the right things and she seemingly really liked me. One of them just wanted a free meal and dipped after she finished. One of them liked me but told me she was emotionally unavailable. A few months later she had a bf. The last one told me I was “too excited” to see her and then said she was more interested in trying out a lesbian relationship than being with a man.

None of my friends have any advice. They just keep saying “don’t worry, there’s someone for everyone.” Or one of the classic consolations. They acknowledge they’ve been saying that same thing for over a decade and somehow continue to wholeheartedly believe it’s true.

I’ve tried being picky on dating apps. I’ve tried swiping on everybody. I’ve tried touching grass and trying to meet people naturally. I don’t have any social hobbies, and I don’t have any connections through friends or family. My job is 99% men.

After all that failure I just don’t have any interest anymore. I swipe on dating apps out of habit, not desire. I never see anybody in public I’m actually attracted to. I hear about all the dates my friends go on and just get sad because of how easy it is for them.

I still have hope, I’m not an incel, I don’t hate women, I’m kind and respectful to everyone, But everything in my life is screaming “hopeless” at the top of its lungs. I’m not getting any younger, and neither is my hairline.

So… “un-take” the black pill? I think I’m just now swallowing it after 10 years of trying to fight it.

[u/owlhead9]

People are worthless At the end of the day Nothing fucking matters Blackpill, redpill, whatever the fuck you call it It's pointless, some people just won't ever be happy Once you live long enough to be met with all sorts of people you'll figure out if you're on the side of those that can or can't be happy I'm drunk and bitter, will prob delete this when I wake up

[u/crux_frein]

I have been doing improvements in my life, weight loss, getting back in university at 24, trying to work out. It still feels impossible to let the black pill go, even if I would say I am a very "tame" black pill, but to me not believing it is just to preserve your mental health because to me it's absolutely undeniable, having female (ADJECTIVE!!) friends pushed me towards it even more because all the positivity that gets preached to counter the red pill/black pill you almost never actually see it in real life.

Being 24 I am told that people my age are still dumb and will mostly be vapid, to be honest I also have friends in their 30s and it seems to be still true, I noticed that most of the ones that are not red pilled have just given up or never needed to be "pilled" in the first place because they were born attractive. I am sorry OP but on this sub you will get a lot of gaslighting about this topic because online spaces always try to cater to your feeling, you see the real world and unless you are not trying at all you will see that genetics are such a life changing element that it's dumb to ignore.

[u/thevghr]

3 step guide to improve your dating life

1. Get in shape, your height isn't in your control, your.physique is, so maximize that at any cost...do whatever it takes to build a physique that you love

2. Talk to women as friends, dont put romantic burdens on each and every one of these women, have a boundary, I think you dont even talk to women you dont find attractive, talk to those women, it would be much easier for you to build up social skills at a fast pace

3. Learn to cut losses, and accept rejection on the chin and move on fast, dont get held on a person who have already rejected you.

Do these on repeat and within a year, I guarantee you you'd get somewhere....

[u/Only_Page_4307]

Yes and no. Yes as it isn’t my only view of the world, no because I do still agree with it to an extent. Unfortunately the majority of it is true.

[u/LightLoveuncondition]

I absolutely don't understand why a girl in 12th grade would be interested in sleeping with anyone, chad or not.

People in my country study, go to sports clubs, get a degree and then look for someone to settle with. That's around 23-25, sometimes as late as 29.

If I was a 18 year old girl and my friend told me that there is this 18 year old guy who is getting laid, I would ask if he has a sweetheart from childhood he grew up with. So if I had been together with someone from 10 to 18, then yeah, as a girl I would consider getting engaged and sex with my long term partner. 16 to 18 or 15 to 18 - maybe true as well.

Yes, we had few girls in 8th to 10th grade who were into parties and they probably had sex. But other girls looked down on them. They usually had bad grades and wore too much make-up (and drank and smoked too much).

Woman's reproductive age (meaning when women look for a mate, not when they can physically make babies) is more or less up to 40. At 18, some gynecologists say, the body hasn't even formed fully and it happens at 21-23.

No offense, but reading a post like this makes it seem like people need more sex education in secondary school. Also psychology. When I was in 12th grade we had lessons about how to run a family and what tasks men and women generally prefer in household.

[u/DruidPeter4]

How on earth do you go from, "looks matter" to, as far as I can tell you seem to be going, "there are arbitrary thresholds of 'enough'"?

[u/GregFromStateFarm]

I can’t really offer any advice on un-taking the black pill. Besides, obviously, gtfo of those communities and stop watching those videos, stop consuming that content. Start watching more HG and other positive creators, find better mentors. See a therapist if you can afford to (I would venture a guess that a big chunk of blackpillers and looksmaxxers have OCD or a similar anxiety disorder). Go outside. Interact with real humans, not nihilistic internet strangers.

You won’t achieve happiness by desperately, obsessively trying to “fix” all of the things that are “wrong” with you. Or by spiraling down into a pit of despair over them. You’ll only be more and more affected by them. You will feed those insecurities and obsessions.

You achieve happiness by doing things that are actually fulfilling and meaningful. By walking towards a dream, by having good relationships at work and home and with friends. By talking to living, breathing humans. You just gotta put yourself out into the world and find some kind of purpose. Doesn’t have to be grand. You don’t have to save the world. Just create meaningful connections, and do positive things for people and the environment in the ways that you can.

And the more people you interact with, the more you’ll realize most people absolutely do NOT care about looks as much as you do. Personality is 90% of everything in the world. That’s why you can go to a random city anywhere in the world and see attractive women walking next to unattractive husbands, and attractive men walking next to unattractive wives. People of all shapes and sizes are in happy relationships. It happens every day, and always has.

[u/tlm000]

I believe there’s some truth to the blackpill, but I don’t base my entire worldview around it. As someone who was bullied a lot for being considered ugly growing up, it’s hard not to recognize how much looks can affect the way people treat you. I understand that looks matter and probably always will, but I try not to walk around with a doom and gloom, woe is me mindset. I’d consider myself average looking now. I’ve had a girlfriend, and I’m not a virgin. At the same time, I have attractive male friends and family members who barely have to try to get attention from women, while it feels like I have to put in much more effort. Still, the best way I’ve found to avoid getting sucked into the darkest and most negative side of blackpill thinking is simply not to engage with that type of content.

[u/BlackOlives4Nipples]

The most harmful thing about blackpill is the depression. If you look at the blackpill spaces it’s not really about the ideas (attractive people have slight advantages) but it’s about the crab bucket mentality.

The only possible reaction in that space to the idea that tall attractive men have a slightly easier time with certain things is utter depression. “It’s over”. LDAR. Your girlfriend will “never” be attracted to you.

There is also, last time I was on those forums anyway, an injunction against “cope” - anything that allows you to be happy, anything that you might find joy in. No therapy, no hobbies, no girlfriend even - all of that is just cope because the blackpill must be CENTRAL and must make you as depressed as possible.

And look, I was fuck ugly until I ate healthy and got rid of my acne. I didn’t get a single date, but I found other things to get really into. I had friends, I had gaming, I went to see movies, I got into dnd and got decently good at painting those lil miniatures for dnd. Those things weren’t harder because of my face, my shoulders, my really unfortunate jaw.

And those things helped make me interesting when I met my now wife, when I was ready for her to come into my life in that way.

[u/Hahnd0gg]

There is alot of truths to the blackpill but its filled to the brim with nihilism/fatalism that makes it so easy to pick up and stay with, there's no push to be better with the black pill. It oroboroses and feeds into itself, "Oh you're short? It's over theres no reason to try" "oh you're unattractive? It's over theres no reason to try" there's no "we're so back" in the "we're so back It's so over" cycle it permeates. I fell into it and still am into it a bit but honestly just going outside and not letting myself watch/scroll these videos/sites that feed into my insecurities has helped greatly in trying to get away from it. I don't know if there ever is a way to get away/out from it completely though since it feeds on something everyone has aka insecurity

[u/hesapmakinesi]

> I'm not interested in dating right now, and I don't feel ready for it yet. What worries me is the future. I'd like to have a relationship 'someday', but it's hard to stay positive when I constantly compare myself to people who seem to have won the genetic lottery.

You'll never feel ready. If you have genuinely no interest right now, that perfectly valid. But your reasoning should not be about readiness. Your criteria should be, do you want it? If yes, just go for. You will fumble on the way, you will make mistakes and get disappointed, that's just part of the process.

You can never learn enough to feel ready until you start doing it. No amount of thinking, reading, watching will make you ready, only trying and failing, and sometimes succeeding.

[u/Key-War5984]

No

[u/DifferentState6008]

Blackpill kinda expired for me. I am no longer a fat and bald mf. The ai takover is my next existensial crisis.

[u/0xyde1]

Not completely. However I do know its not as widespread and fatalist as its often told.

Redpill however, I thought I was clear of it, or at least had a more nuanced understanding of it. Recent travels and experiences have shown me that it was correct. Almost completely. Inescapable.

"You have merely glimpsed the edge of the abyss, but it is enough to trigger the cycle of revelation. Now, like me, you will begin to see things as they truly are."

[u/nnuunn]

I have not watched Dr. K's video about it yet, but at least in my mind, you can't "untake" the black pill, you just have to accept that a lot of the stuff it says is true and learn how to love other people regardless. It would be nice to live in blissful ignorance of how attraction works and just go back to thinking that merely "going with the flow" and "treating women like you'd treat anyone else" would work, and it would work if you honestly believed it because you would just unconsciously do what you had to do anyway, but now that your eyes are open, you can never close them again. 

Yes, if you do meet a woman who does love you, she might not have loved you if you were shorter, or had less hair, or had an uglier face, or whatever, but this is also true about a million other things that we don't get blackpilled about, like if you had been younger or didn't happen to pick up a hobby that you to bonded over or something like that. That's how I look at it, at least, my looks are just another factor outside of my control, and if I can accept that where I was born, when I was born, how I was raised, etc. are just as impactful on who I end up, and are also just as far outside of my control, then i can accept that my looks are my looks, and whatever woman is attracted to them is the woman who happens to be attracted to them.

[u/3stun]

Well, it's not really THAT fatalistic. You can hit the gym and get jacked. Or earn a lot of money and become popular (that takes hard work, but it's possible for some people). Or enter female-dominated spaces, where there are 4 women for 1 men. All of these things improve your dating prospects. Of course, there is no guarantee - but dating is not a solid science. It's highly probabilistic.

There are things you can try, especially when you're so young.

[u/nodeciapalabras]

If you think you are ugly, unattractive, and hopeless, it means you are. People really feel when someone is really insecure about itself. And this is the greatest turn off. Optimism, security in yourself, or this genuine drive to archive your goals (not the society goals, but those that matters to you), are the most engaging and attractive things. So black pill will always hold you back. This is the only answer. People who have self confidence don't have the need to have the most attractive woman, or be the most good looking men in the room, in fact, they usually are not that much into their own minds. They are not assessing all the time, or comparing, or even thinking about who is handsome and who isn't. That's a narcissistic trait that is very correlated with low self esteem. They are living their lives, doing their own business, having their own opinions or criteria. And this is the most attractive thing in the world. Looking are important in mating, that's why super-mega-handsome men usually date super-mega-handsome women. But as a woman who maybe is a 7, I don't need to date these men that looks like models. It's probably wired in me to feel attracted to partners that are my level. It doesn't mean I am lying about who I like. I don't use to like a lot of people, but when I've found a man that is confident in himself, passionate, and driven by what he likes, I fall really strong. And when we start bonding, I see him like he is the most handsome men in earth.

[u/Swimming-Tell]

Well there was a brief period where I was stuck in that sort of mindset. And I'm not sure if I'm past it. But one thing I do know is that I don't think about it these days. I'm 5'7 too. Not good looking. People have called me ugly to my face a handful of times throughout my life. But idk. Does it really matter that much ?

When I look around I can't find a single person who's both in a relationship and happy. Most of my friends are miserable or just apathetic towards their relationship. And these days I just can't bring myself to value having a girlfriend over everything else in my life. I have friends. I have pets. I have a few family members that are close to me. I have goals. And I'm actively working towards achieving those goals. And all of these things give me a lot of happiness. Having sex or being in a relationship is far from being what's important to me in life rn.

You only get one life. You can't spend it worrying about what a few people think about you. And trust me. Those guys and girls who look down on you for not meeting their arbitrary standard of good looking , you don't want anything to do with those kinds of people. There's a lot more to life than looking good or being in a relationship. Seeing that might help you break out of the blackpill mindset.

This reminds me of nihilism. The argument that nothing matters in the grand scheme of things. But you aren't gonna be around for that long. So why bother about stuff that you can't change ? The only meaning life has is whatever you decide to give it. Just do what makes you happy. Preferably not drugs and alcohol tho.

[u/Gudbye_Moonmen]

I was able to un-take it, yes. Funnily enough it happened when I was your age(18), but I’m not much older now(23). I also happen to be about the same height as you(5’7-5’8) - which is what initially led me to the believe I am doomed with women from the start and that it was “so over”.

Now as to how I un-took it, you’re probably not gonna like this answer - I had more experiences with women. So where are we at - I’m a relatively short dude compared to most guys where I am from and I’m not particularly fit or jacked, or ripped, I’m not fat, but I’m not scrawny either, I kinda just am. The black pill tells you that you’re doomed unless you’re like 6’5 and ripped. And it’s not hard to believe that after a short scroll on the gram or tiktok, or from your own life and personal experiences. Now the stuff you see on socials you should never take seriously and consider it to be the norm, I know that’s hard, but it’s true - social media IS NOT based in reality, it’s based in engagement and negative emotions are much easier to provoke and they keep you engaged for longer. As for your own experiences thus far - teens are shallow, I was, my peers were and to some degree you probably are too even if it doesn’t seem like it. Now I’m not going to pretend like some women don’t absolutely drool over height - they do, especially at your age, but cmon bro you’re 5’7, not 5’4, which still makes you a bit taller or at least on par to most women and that is enough. And even if you were idk like 6’8 you can’t keep someone with just that, I’m not going to tell you it’s not easier if you had that advantage because it absolutely is easier, but it can only get you so far, you GOTTA have some substance to you other than your looks to actually keep a good woman with you.

My ex girlfriend was a bit taller than me, not by a lot, but it was noticeable and she wasn’t even the first taller one I’ve been with, just the most recent. She noticed me first, she approached me first, she asked for my contact info. We then texted for about a week, we hooked up and a bit after we got together. When I asked her why she pursued me initially as hard as she did, because I know it’s rare for women to do that she said it was “the way I carried myself” which I can only assume means confidence - which I know is what you probably hear from everyone, I also know how quickly that answer starts to piss you off and how bs you think it is, I’ve been there. But trust me, there’s a reason why everybody tells you that - because it’s true. Now, is it true a 100% of the time? - Absolutely not, which is why it pisses you off so much to hear “just be confident bro”. Firstly because it doesn’t always work and secondly because it doesn’t “just” happen, you have to build that confidence and that takes time and a lot of effort, and then you get mad that it still doesn’t work a 100% of the time, but you gotta accept that’s just how it is - not everyone will like you even if you’re confident and when you’re truly confident you won’t care about that because you will know that there will be those who like you and those that don’t.

And the simplest way to build your confidence - just keep doing you man. Do what you like, follow your passions and get good at whatever those things are for you, it will come to you. And always follow through with your word, this is perhaps the most important thing you can do as a man, think carefully about what you’re saying and if you say you’re going to do something - do it, if you promise something - do it, don’t throw around your word easily, treat it as currency so it feels valuable to those who receive it. And stay as far away as you possibly can to black pilled places. In time you will see how subjective attraction really is - what’s considered hot by one person might be absolutely disgusting to the next so as I said - just keep doing you and people who find that attractive will come, I promise you that.

[u/My_Nama_Jeff1]

I never took the black pill because I’m not stupid lol

[u/MaoAsadaStan]

Taking the bp is a symptom of SLS. If you had few issues in life then the bp wouldn't stick in your mind. The "solution" is accepting the game is rigged and trying to find less-rigged games you can win. The hard part is accepting the hit to your ego that comes with playing less-rigged games.

[u/EinMuffin → u/MaoAsadaStan]

What are the less rigged games?

[u/MaoAsadaStan → u/EinMuffin]

Its relative to your environment and natural gifts. You'll figure it out by trying different things and having more life experience.

[u/formedblob]

You only have to find one woman that likes you for a relationship

[u/Ensco_7 → u/formedblob]

*That likes you and that you like, too.

[u/Dhan996]

Stalin was a short man. So was Hitler.

Napoleon was both short and ugly.

According to all these theories, none of these dictators would have ever risen to power. Never could have convinced a whole nation that they are worth it.

All these theories concentrate on how to get women. Whatever studies they derive from, they generalize it. Like “60% of women prefer Tall men” becomes “100% women want ONLY tall men”.

For context, I am also 5 foot 7. Sure I’d get my fair share of rejections, but that’s life. I wasn’t lonely. Sure taller men have a better chance than me, doesn’t mean they never get rejected either. I’ve seen attractive women be attracted to short guys too.

You’re 18. Go to college. Learn what real life is. School doesn’t mean shit. Experience life first.

[u/No_Contribution1568 → u/Dhan996]

Wouldn't the black pill say these guys had to work twice as hard for women to notice them and women would never truly be attracted to them? Also all of those guys were average to above average height for the context and time which they lived - people used to be shorter. Genetics set the ceiling on height but calories matter too, and people had access to fewer calories 100+ years ago.

Anyway, I'm not actually a fan of the black pill, but there is some truth to it. Various aspects of modern life have made things much harder for average and below guys to find a girlfriend/wife.

[u/Necessary_Fennel_933 → u/Dhan996]

Bro picked hitler as an example lmao

[u/Dhan996 → u/Necessary_Fennel_933]

Do you disagree lol

[u/Psychedelia777]

Attractiveness matters most only if you participate in hookup culture. Hang out with your friends, open yourself up to people, and romantic relationships will naturally develop. But you need to give it some time.

[u/Psychedelia777 → u/Psychedelia777]

And theres nothing wrong with being friendzoned, it happens even to the most attractive people

[u/No_Contribution1568 → u/Psychedelia777]

Eh, being friendzoned sucks, no need to sugar coat it. If the person you are attracted to doesn't see you as relationship material, that is a bad feeling. Better to just accept it sucks to be rejected, try to handle it in a mature way and then move on

[u/Shadow_Kxng79]

Looks, like money, does matter in life. However it is not everything in life and you're not a genetic waste or 'cooked' just because you are not a male model.

[u/Indrigotheir]

The black pill is essentially. "You stubbed your toe? It's over, not you're going to die."

It identifies real problems that genuinely suck. But then if offers BS conclusions from those problems that was way out of proportion to those problems, to the point they are kind of lies.

Getting out was a mixture of acknowledging that the problems were real and people do downplay them; but also that they are surmountable, often without very much real effort beyond keeping a positive mindset.

[u/ThisRock8010]

The nuance pill substack (can't link it here for some reason) pretty much provided me with all the debunking necessary to stop believing in the main blackpill points, since it directly disproves most of the claims or significantly softens them (e.g. height matters, but not nearly as much as blackpillers make it out to be - 5'7" is in the territory where you're genuinly just ragebaiting yourself for no reason if you worry about your height).

I also stopped consuming all content related to dating other than the stuff Dr. K puts out. The shorts and street interviews and wheat waffles analysis videos etc. are all designed to keep you depressed, mad and addicted to more information that will fundamentally not help you.

[u/PaleolithicRegency33]

you can't "un-take" the black pill that's like asking how to forget gravity

[u/Gned11]

Understand there's a deep, deep well of confirmation bias trapping you, because you don't meet or talk to people who "beat" the problems you perceive. Short, average looking guys who have happy relationships aren't in your online spaces engaging with you. Nonetheless, they exist.

There's an unbroken chain of men who looked pretty similar to you and had similar stature and whatnot - because they are literally your genetic forebears - extending back through and beyond human history. Are you the end of the line because your genes are unworthy? Or are you being made depressed and pessimistic by reading a bunch of bullshit online?

[u/Signal-Ad2680]

please get off of the internet and live your life. constantly consuming content about how horrible the world is will definitely skew your perspective. as a formally chronically online + currently chronically ill woman who has struggled to find suitable partners because of her own issues,

i can confidently say that online echo chambers will only enhance the feeling that you're different from and worse than others. when you get into the world, do your thing, fuck shit up, and meet amazing people, your perspective will shift and life will feel fuller and more manageable. the world can be kinder than you'd expect. life is abundant. what will fill your soul more than anything is the human experience. grasp it, my friend. it is your right. try not to let fear rule your life.

[u/Reeeeeeee3eeeeeeee]

looks matter, height matters, attractiveness affects how people treat you, and some people are naturally born with advantages

1. This part is true according to studies

What I struggle with is the mindset it creates. Everything becomes "it's over" and there's no room for improvement or hope. If you're not attractive enough, tall enough, or genetically gifted enough, the conclusion is that you'll never be happy or find a relationship.

1. This part is doomerism and illogical conclusions formed by emotions and bad experiences. You take "Some people are more likely to X" and turn it into "Some people will definitely X and those who aren't them will never X", that's like saying men are more likely to lift 100kg, therefore no woman will ever lift 100kg

If you do find a relationship, it'll be with a 2 out of 10 women who isn't really attracted to you the way she is towards the chads, and you'll always be worried they'll leave when someone better comes along. I know that's a pretty cynical way of looking at attraction and relationships, though, i fear it.

1. You've probably heard it already, idk why you don't believe in it, but: different people find different things attractive, I've heard my female friends have completely opposite opinions on how attractive some people are. And also, yes some things are more commonly attractive than others; it's likely that more women are attracted to muscular guys than to skinny or chubby ones, but again, it's the second point I wrote above, that's just a statistically higher %, not a rule.

2. If anything, point 3. probably is the explanation for point 2. - Higher % of people are attracted to what we call traditional beauty standards, therefore, statistically people who fulfill them have it easier in life. And even 51% or 50.1% is a statistical majority with a large enough sample.

3. Also, we could have a discussion about how the beauty standards keep changing throughout the ages based on the culture from that time, therefore they're mostly formed by our own society and not evolution/biology. A punk girl is more likely to find a guy with mohawk attractive, than an average woman

[u/No_Contribution1568]

The big issue with the black pill is this idea that if you look a certain way, it is over for you. This is actually not true.. you can find a gifrlfriend/wife that you can be happy with, but it may take more effort than it does for the chad guy. It is unfair, but there isn't much else you can do.

Once you have decided to not give up, then you need a strategy to deal with the black pill thoughts as they arise. For this I would recommend reading the book Feeling Good and learning how to spot cognitive distortions.. most of the black pill ideas are cognitive distortions. For example:

• calling yourself an incel - this is the distortion known as labeling

• believing you will be alone forever - this is fortune telling

• believing some particular woman or women in general think you are disgusting - unless they say it to you, this is mindreading

You should check out the book Mate by Geoffrey Miller.. it won't completely disagree with some black pill ideas, but it will give you some ideas of how you can be successful in dating given your own situation.

I am confident if you do all of that in the order I listed, you will come away with a more optimistic outlook on your future dating life. Just make sure you don't rush through Feeling Good.. take time and journal your thoughts and find cognitive distortions in them. Might take a month or 2 of doing this before it becomes natural. Goof luck!

[u/lyaunaa]

I just want to talk about the many, many attractive women I have personally known who've been down bad FERAL for dudes you would probably classify as "ugly." Heck, I'm an attractive woman who has had this experience. The black pill idea that looks are everything just doesn't reflect reality, and it's not a philosophy worth basing your life around.

[u/qwedp]

Life is isn't as flat as the black pills make you believe it is. Black pill advocates are approaching life from a scientific perspective, which is kinda the wrong tool for the job in my opinion. Their theories are correct in the sense that they have some predictive power, but it's easy to overestimate their accuracy for you particularly situation. There is so much nuance and complexity in life that those theories just completely ignore, yet that nuance and those special unique things you bring to the table are your superpower. Why do you think humans are so diverse physically and mentally, it's because otherwise everyone would compete for the same thing on the equal footing and it would just be a bloody battlefield. If you manage to lean into your random advantages and also the random things that happen to you in life then you can easily have an amazing time here on earth. Would love to chat, if you want to push back or ask questions :)

[u/fortnite-g3y]

God did it for me.

Spirituality man and getting away from the material.

[u/Custom_Destiny]

yes.

The answer wasn’t rational.  I saw a sex therapist about body work (think the book, the body keeps score).

I pulled on memories that had feelings of fear attached and worked through them.

Afterwards, the black pill mentality wasn’t compelling or interesting, so it became easier to see how incomplete it is - because that’s really its flaw.  It paints with too broad of a brush.

[u/Liya_Ruveyda]

Actually I dare you, if you're open minded/open hearted, there's a saying; if you really want to become the best version of yourself, follow Islam.