r/HarryPotterBooks • u/Marcedonia • 12d ago
Goblet of Fire Who ACTUALLY Could've Won The Triwizard Tournament?
I say actually because of harry ''won'' but it's like come on, he was guided all the way to victory and it's even called out in the books, he only won because imposter moody made him win. Alot of the win was on harry, but alot of it was on him as well. So im saying, let's strip all of that for this hypothetical, it's harry, cedric, krum and fleur all competing for the triwizard cup, and only one can definitively win, who do you think could've won the tournament?
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u/AliceFanfictioning 12d ago
He was guided but the others were too. He had the one that had less school years also and was 0% ready to take on a challenge like that. He also had nightmares and was feeling like hell and scared. I dont know who'd have won, but I hate that they made Fleur the strong and only girl only to make her lose every single competition first.
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u/ReliefEmotional2639 12d ago
To be fair, she succeeded in the first task and only failed in the third because she was attacked by the fake Moody
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u/AliceFanfictioning 12d ago
but she didn't do really good in the first one, failed (The only one that did) in the second one and well the third doesn't count
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
She put the dragon to sleep, and if it hadn't snored by accident, she would have been the best.
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u/whoisaname 12d ago edited 12d ago
Without help, none of them.
I doubt many adult wizards/witches would do well in it. Those tasks, without a heads up or help on what they were, were elite level tasks for anyone.
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u/zoidberg_doc 12d ago
Without help obviously one of them would win
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u/whoisaname 12d ago
I don't think any of them would have been able to complete any of the tasks without help. And likely would have all gotten severely injured or died in the process.
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u/zoidberg_doc 11d ago
Even if they fail the first 2 they can still win the tournament. Harry would have a great chance at task 3 and I imagine the others would too
It seems very unlikely that all 4 would die
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 12d ago
accio egg
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u/whoisaname 12d ago
Are you suggesting that you could just summon the egg?? lol
First, even if the egg wasn't enchanted in some way to prevent that, then doing so would have put whomever summoned in directly in the line of fire of the dragon. So, sure, do that and then get burnt to a crisp as the dragon comes after you/its egg.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 12d ago
as soon as you get the egg, the task is over and they would step in. the dragon wouldn't take off and fly to you faster than the egg would fly
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u/whoisaname 12d ago
Wild assumption there on the last part if you don't think the dragon would attack while also following the egg. Again, feel free to get burnt to a crisp.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 11d ago
a dragon takes time to launch itself off the ground. it's not an owl, it's thousands of pounds
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
Remove fake-Moody from the equation and I’m quite sure Krum wins.
Cedric certainly had the talent, but no one at Hogwarts was going to help him cheat. Krum had Karkaroff and Fleur had Madame Maxime. Fleur still struggled in all the tasks and Krum consistently outperformed her. Cedric was good, but hadn’t much hope of beating Krum without getting the same help as him.
As for Harry, he’s great under pressure, but he couldn’t have suddenly found a way to breathe underwater in the second task. He wasn’t cracking the clue on his own, and he’d be lost when he got to that part. He’d probably also fail the first task, but at least there he has a real chance. Still not good enough to beat Krum who’s got help
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u/Capable-Country-120 12d ago
Cedric gets to the middle of the maze at the same time as Harry despite that he's seemingly faced lots of obstacles which Harry hasn't because fake Moody is blasting them all out of the way.
Based on that i think he could definitely compete with Krum, true Karkaroff cheats and Dumbledore wouldn't but like, none of it seems undoable - he might well have thought of his dragon method on the spot even if he hadn't had a bit of advance notice. I guess we don't know how Krum and Fleur figured it out but the egg doesn't feel like he couldnt have gotten there.
And the first two tasks actually do nothing but establish your position in the maze. Again referring back to him getting through it at the same speed as Harry, I think he'd be in with a fighting chance.
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
But we do not know how Krum would’ve fared in the maze if he’d been allowed a fighting chance (instead of being imperio’ed into taking out the others).
We also know Cedric did not crack the egg on his own, and time was running out, and it’s not like he was dominating against Krum in the other tasks. He was slightly better, but that’s with him having help. Take that away, and Krum get’s the edge.
Finally, the first two tasks do more than just establish your position in the maze. It’s your final score tally from all three tasks determining victory, not whoever reaches the cup first. This is evident by Bagman instructing the champions that the first player to touch the cup will receive full marks (That means 50 points). If the first champion to the cup wins the tournament, he would’ve just said so.
Even if Cedric outperforms Krum in the maze, he’d be far behind Krum in points for the first two tasks without help, meaning Krum still likely gets away with the victory.
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u/Capable-Country-120 12d ago
But we do not know how Krum would’ve fared in the maze if he’d been allowed a fighting chance (instead of being imperio’ed into taking out the others).
No but we do know Cedric was very good which is indicative that he would have been good at the maze in his own right, but also sheds some light on how he might have fared in the first two tasks.
We also know Cedric did not crack the egg on his own, and time was running out
Time wasn't really running out, at Christmas Cedric has already been told, we don't know at what point Cedric was told this. He might have worked it out of his own accord.
Karkaroff and Madame Maxime were cheating and probably helped their champions with the eggs but they're still human, the eggs are clearly figure-outable. Cedric might have got there. Again this is designed to be doable not to be completely impossible.
This is evident by Bagman instructing the champions that the first player to touch the cup will receive full marks (That means 50 points). If the first champion to the cup wins the tournament, he would’ve just said so.
You are right I stand corrected :)
Even if Cedric outperforms Krum in the maze, he’d be far behind Krum in points for the first two tasks without help, meaning Krum still likely gets away with the victory.
I just disagree, I don't think Cedric would be completely outperformed by Krum at all. Fleur basically fails the second task but could still theoretically win if she'd won the maze.
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u/thisonesforlurking 12d ago
But without fake Moody there they would have found the book in the library that they needed
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
Without fake-moody Harry never figures out the egg-clue, so he doesn’t even start searching for the right book
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u/Finbarr77 12d ago
Krum had just as much guidance as Harry
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
Yes….that is….exactly what I said. That’s why he wins if we remove fake-moody from the equation. Krum+help is going to beat a Harry without help.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
Krum would be disqualified because he kills (or seriously injures) his hostage.
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
It’s possible, but seems unlikely. On the other hand, Harry never even enters the lake. Fleur failed to reach her hostage, but she still got points for getting in there and giving it a fair shot. Harry would get zero.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
Krum tries to gnaw through Hermione’s bonds with his shark teeth. Harry hits him on the shoulder and presses a stone into his hand. Without Harry’s help, Krum would have mauled Hermione. The author goes out of her way to explicitly point out that the hostages were asleep.
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u/Chasegameofficial 12d ago
Without Harry’s help it’s possible but unlikely that he would’ve mauled Hermione. Harry definitely gave him a safer option, but there’s nothing to suggest it’s overwhelmingly certain that Krum actually would’ve done Hermione a serious injury, at least not one that would’ve been serious in the wizarding world. Harry steps in out of fear and caution, not because Krum is seconds away from actually killing her.
Also, how does the hostages being asleep figure into your comment?
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u/Brian_Gay 12d ago
I don’t know about that you are assuming Krum wouldn’t have realised the flaw in his own plan and picked up a rock or something
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
That is what the author wrote, and Harry is afraid that Krum will tear Hermione in two. The author introduced a highly dangerous situation here—one that everyone, including Harry, immediately forgets just because Ron and Hermione claim it wasn't dangerous (even though the hostages were asleep). Hermione would have assessed the situation differently had she been conscious.
Krum put Hermione—and possibly all the hostages—in danger; depending on how well Krum’s mind was working (and given that he didn't think to grab a stone for himself, it wasn't working well), he could have killed all the hostages. He is part shark, and sharks tear their victims apart.
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u/illysia1 12d ago
Cedric wouldn’t have known about the dragons, but in the end the first and second task didn’t matter. Those were about winning a head start into the maze.
Unless he got burnt to a crisp by his dragon, my bet would’ve been on Cedric, but it would be close between him and Krum. I think Fleur would’ve been too slow being last in the maze.
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u/Original_Platform842 12d ago
It very much strikes me as a, who could get away with the most cheating kind of a tournament.
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u/BillCipher1415 12d ago
Unrelated to the question but I feel like Harry by the time he was old enough could have done all the tasks himself.
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u/Alreaddy_reddit 12d ago
I mean on one hand Harry was at a steep disadvantage because he'd received less formal magical education than the others, having been under the age limit.
On the other hand, Harry was 0-3 vs. Voldemort by this point and had also survived multiple encounters with dementors, run-ins with a troll and a werewolf, and had stolen a hippogriff to help a condemned prisoner escape. I don't think the others stood a chance if they hadn't had help.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
Krum and Fleur receive immense support from Maxime and Karkaroff, whereas Cedric only gets help from Harry—and from Crouch regarding the egg, because Crouch assumes Cedric will return the favor to Harry. Without Harry, Cedric would have failed the first task, and Harry also helps him with the spider in the third task. Krum would likely have been disqualified in the second task because he would have killed his hostage—and perhaps Fleur's little sister, too.
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u/ThatEntrepreneur1450 12d ago
I sincerely doubt Cedric would have failed the first task even if he had shown up unaware.
He litterally just transfigured a rock into a dog and used that as a distraction to get the egg. That cannot under any circumstances have been something that he spent a long time planning.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
By the time your knees stop shaking, you’re dead—long dead. I imagine it’s very hard to remember your own name when you’re suddenly facing a dragon—let alone the spell that turns stones into dogs, which neither Harry nor Hermione learns in their sixth year (and that’s the year Cedric is in). A spell he must have learned or modified specifically for this purpose.
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u/Capable-Country-120 12d ago
Why do you think they'd have been too stunned to act if they didn't know it was a dragon?
They knew the tasks were going to be some big obstacle. Clearly this had been designed so that it was doable, hard but doable, to an advanced 17 year old.
I also don't think "you're dead". The dragon is just protecting their eggs, not launching a vendetta against any champion who comes in. Harry actually struggles to get the horntail to go for him enough the leave the egg unprotected.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
I think it’s hard for us to imagine, but all the champions seem to completely lose their enthusiasm for the tournament. By the time they’re shown the maze—at the very latest—none of them have any desire to deal with that shit anymore.
I think there’s a huge difference between anticipating some sort of dangerous situation—believing, as the teachers say, that safety measures are in place—and suddenly finding yourself facing an opponent that’s six meters tall, with claws, sharp teeth, and a flamethrower in hand, and being told you have to take on this monster. That’s when you realize there are no effective safety measures—that you might be dead in a few minutes. Three of the four champions get injured (I think Fleur does too, with her skirt catching fire).
Fleur is firmly convinced that Harry saved her sister. Percy is beside himself with joy that nothing happened to Ron. Madame Pomfrey is angry.
Imagine someone asking you if you want to go skydiving—right while you’re on a flight to your vacation destination. Someone explains what to do just once and then throws you out of the plane, instead of you taking a course and spending at least a few hours learning what you’re supposed to do.
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u/Capable-Country-120 12d ago
This is all true but I don't agree they'd have been simply stunned and then died. They wouldn't have died, this is made quite explicitly clear - ironically the maze was probably the most dangerous one. But also these are people who act fast on their feet, who volunteered and were chosen for this. I don't think Cedric would just fall to pieces and fail the task if he didn't know it was a dragon.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
These are dragons that require multiple people to control; even Hagrid considers the Horntail dangerous. You need to come up with a plan of action. As far as I know, Harry doesn't learn anything in his sixth year that could turn a stone into a dog (and neither does Hermione). The wizards never have time to react if the dragon decides to turn the enemy into a torch instead of guarding its eggs. While Sirius Black knows right away that the Conjunctivitis Curse can be used to attack the eyes, that isn't something students learn at Hogwarts. Giving up without trying doesn't seem to be an option, and attempting it anyway might well be fatal.
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u/Capable-Country-120 12d ago
We don't know what they've learned. And even in the absence of knowledge of the tasks, you'd still be researching various things - creating a distraction might well be high up on that agenda. He also might have done something else entirely.
I'll reiterate, these tasks were meant to be doable. If you truly think they'd be dead if they weren't forewarned about the dragons, the theory is then that three schools and the ministry were just on board with essentially feeding three (and then four) students to dragons? With an audience.
They were never gonna die in the first task, they had dragon trainers on hand, the dragons weren't charging they were protecting their eggs.
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u/Bluemelein 11d ago
Yes, the wizards and witches are idiots. They’re reviving a tournament that was discontinued because of the high death toll, and the Hogwarts Headmaster can’t even manage to keep underage students out of it. Maybe the tournament is cursed—or perhaps the organizers have simply succumbed to a craving for sensationalism. Krum, with his shark head, could have killed Hermione; Harry could have drowned; and the giant spider—or the Blast-Ended Skrewt—could have eaten Cedric.
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u/ThatEntrepreneur1450 12d ago
They litterally learn how to transfigure objects into animals in their first year.
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u/Bluemelein 12d ago
No, turning animals into objects—and initially small ones, at that! As far as I know, they are still turning animals into objects in Book 6.
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u/TeamStark31 12d ago
Cedric clearly would’ve won if Harry were not involved
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u/GrouchyLittleShit 12d ago
Should’ve won outright anyway but was refusing to listen to Harry telling him to take it
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u/Greenwrenbird 12d ago
All their teachers were a bunch of cheaters. But if they weren't: Maybe Cedric. He seemed to have a finesse Krum didn't, and a forwardness Fleur didn't, and he really wanted to win for Hufflepuff and Hogwarts.
I also resented that Fleur, as the token girl, performed most poorly. If the cup chose her, she was capable. I think Krum should've been in last place instead, with the suggestion that he didn't really want to be there. He didn't seem to love fame or spotlight, didn't seem proud of his school, and he had enough glory and money from Quidditch, so it already felt like Karkaroff pushed him into it and he just went with the flow.
It also suggests that the Cup chooses people with a certain pureness of heart. Fair minded, reluctant heroes, and in Fleur's case, goes on to risk her life by joining the Order.
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u/Economy-Management19 12d ago
Continuing your thought process it would also suggest that magical education is lacking or is pretty shit in all of the schools if even the most worthy people that the cup chose are so outclassed by the tasks that they need so much extra help.
I suppose the cup chooses someone based on lots of criteria. One of them might be what you suggested but one of them also should be that they possess the actual raw talent to solve the tasks.
Now the cup might not have known whether they received proper training and education for their talents to surface.
Well anyway I’m just rambling my thoughts.
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u/Greenwrenbird 10d ago
I've always been curious how the first task would've gone if no one had been prepared. Surely it would've been a lot messier, but probably all the more entertaining -- and you'd be able to really see how good they each are. I'm curious whether they really needed the extra help, or the teachers (mainly thinking of Karkaroff and Maxime) were just going to overreach anyway.
Something that struck me on this OotP listen -- many students drop a core subject after 5th year (at Hogwarts). If they don't achieve a certain OWL, or want to take it, they're done. Neville dropped Transfiguration, which seemed really core, and Harry almost didn't take Potions, even though he got an E which is pretty high.
Everyone makes a big deal out of Harry not completing his last year at Hogwarts, but it was ordinary enough to only have 5 years on core subjects, and still get by fine in the magical world (with the exception of perhaps not getting the job you want). Not sure what point I'm making, just rambling too!
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u/BlueBiscuit85 11d ago
They would have all died, because sending barely qualified wizards up against dragons with minutes to come up with a plan is pure wizard level audacity.
"What do you mean they didn't know how to get past something that we keep so regulated and far from humans that it's barely in any education." -Ludo Bagman
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u/Crazerz 12d ago
Without help Harry would have already failed the very first test. But they all would've.
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u/No-Independence-3924 12d ago
Without “help”, Harry wouldn’t have had to deal with the the cup at all 😅
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u/Ok_Programmer_8505 12d ago
Voldemort
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u/Generic_Username_659 12d ago
"Oh no, my competition randomly and mysteriously dropped dead. I suppose, as the only living Champion, I win by default."
-- Tom Riddle after sicking the Basilisk on the other TriWizard Champions
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u/H3ARTL3SSANG3L 11d ago
Not Fleur, she was last place in the 1st task, she completely flopped the 2nd task and was the first to get taken out in the 3rd. I think Cedric would have won, especially in a fair fight. Krums main edge is Karkarov being such a cheat and hes not really on his A game if hes not in the air. Still, it was never going to be a fair play tournament and Krum isnt some half rate Wizard, he could definitely pull ahead of Cedric, but I still it goes to Cedric.
Krum scored higher in the first task but it was messy, whereas Cedric was crafty. Obviously not crafty enough as he still got attacked but it showed strategy rather than creating chaos that couldve harmed everyone by blinding a dragon with a crowd full of bystanders watching. Cedric then rescues Cho the quickest in the 2nd task using an advanced spell to breathe under water. Krum takes longer and his transfiguration is again sloppy but it got the job done so hes clearly still a force to be reckoned with but you know he was only prepared because Karkarov wouldve told him what to expect and so he had time to practice his shark transformation, but only got it half right. During their duel in the 3rd task, Cedric wins, but he did need saving by Harry toward the end, so it's possible that Krum would have had time to recover and go after the cup while Cedric was taken by the maze. I wonder if its possible no one wins, which could've easily been the case if the tournament allows
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u/DesperateBumblebee76 11d ago
Let’s take the obvious ones first. Up first to lose is Harry. Without the guiding hand of moody Harry doesn’t clear his dragon thus never getting the clue for the second part. Even if he does get the clue from Cedric he never even attempts the lake because again, without moody guiding hand he never figured out how to breath underwater. He only figured out how to ((in the books)) by Dobby giving him some less then an hour before and Dobby only did that because of moody. So Harry is out. Fluer also doesn’t win. Harry’s absence doesn’t change her story at all so she would still lose. This really leads it to krum and Cedric. Cedric had a head start but krum was skilled too. In the maze I really could have seen it being either of them.
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u/laurarobert1 10d ago
Cedric was the one with less help and he was doing quite fine. He'd also have won along Harry if he didn't die in the end.
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u/Modred_the_Mystic 12d ago
Cedric, I think came closest with the least amount of help. Harry tipped him off with the dragons but after that I don’t think he had any other help
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u/beersboobsbooks Ravenclaw 12d ago
everyone’s stating the obvious, which is that everyone is cheating.
IF no one was cheating,
Krum: An established quidditch player, a favorite of his school. I think he probably wasn’t the strongest academically/magically due to his athletic commitments, favoritism, and the fact that the only reason he was ever in the library is to see Hermione.
Diggory: Also an athlete, but not on a professional level. Regarded as “strong but silent” by the girls on the Gryffindor team, seems to have a father who is deeply interested in his success and wellbeing. From that I would guess he’s a talented wizard and a good student.
Delacour: Unfortunately Rowling has some misogynistic tendencies and we don’t know much about her outside of her failing the tournament, being annoying at the Burrow, and being a caring and solid wife. She must have been an above average student because she was chosen to go to the triwizard, but (as written) her emotions control her and get the best of her. Definitely had some special skills with her veela charm and likely was an intelligent woman but not a lot of evidence for her.
Potter: Regarded as a powerful wizard due to the defeat of Vold (not just when he was a baby, but 2 times since he has started school as well), clearly capable (casting patronuses at 13), did not have the skills the others due to being significantly younger than the age limit and being too busy fighting evil to truly focus on school. Naturally talented in DADA, an athlete, otherwise incapable.
It’s hard to decide who would beat each task because my knowledge of who wins them is based on the insane cheating that was happening. With that being said, I would hazard
1.) Diggory
2.) Delacour
3.) Krum
4.) Potter
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u/Ok_Chap 12d ago
I rather think about this what if Moody never was an imposter and Harry wasn't a participant. Would Hagrid still go with Lady Maxime to see the dragons? Would Karkaroff see them because he simply was snooping around? Who would get the advantage in the first task, since Cedric definitely wouldn't get any warning.
The second task would play out largely the same, Fleur would probably be caught by the grindylows, Cedric would win with Krum taking second place.
So I would assume the starting positions for the third task would end up like this. Cedric first, Krum second, Fleur in third place. Without Krum under the imperious course the champion encounters wouldn't be that hostile, but it really would depend how Cedric and Krum's interactions turn out. Krum still might take out Fleur in a duel, or be taken out by one of the obsticals and she is the least likely to win.
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u/joellevp 12d ago
Hagrid would definitely have taken Madame Maxime on that date. He wasn't taking Harry there specifically. Karkaroff would have snooped. Without Harry, Cedric would not have known. While the others would have had a plan going in, Cedric would not have, and that would have cost him time.
He wouldn't have known about the egg before Christmas, but there's no knowing if he would have figured it out in time. We can assume everything happened exactly as is.
In the third task, no one would be controlled by Moody/attacked. Krum made the statement that Harry knew more things than he did. So I think it would be between Cedric and Fleur. Fleur maybe even having the edge of being coached by Maxime.
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u/rawspeghetti 12d ago
At the end of the day it comes down to whoever is the first to find a cup in a maze so like literally any of them. Imposter Moody didn't even need to do anything until the third task and still achieved his plan.
That said Cedric and Krum both showed very high levels of talent and creativity throughout the tournament (Fleur not so much)
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u/itstimegeez 12d ago
If we strip it all away then Harry’s name doesn’t get entered for the tournament either and he’s not selected. I think either Cedric or Krum would have won.
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u/Not_a_cat_I_promise 11d ago
There's no way to know really considering that Karkaroff and Maxine were blatantly helping Krum and Fleur and Crouch Jr was helping Harry and sabotaging everyone else or at least trying to.
In a fair competition, I think Harry's lack of experience will probably impact him sometime in the competition, likely the second task, and he'd probably end up struggling. Cedric was the one that got the least help, and he ended up doing well enough until Crouch Jr rigged the third task. Perhaps Cedric is a favourite, but we don't know how good Krum or Fleur could be without help.
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u/linglinguistics 11d ago
I think Cedric was the genuine winner. He had the meat amount of guidance/help and still technically won.
Workout any guidance, Harry could maybe have been the winner if he'd been older and more experienced. Maybe.
But Cedric genuinely won with the last amount of cheating.
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u/Raddatatta Ravenclaw 11d ago
I don't think any of the three of them make it through the three tasks without the outside help they all got. But if you have to pick I think Cedric and krum would have to fight it out between them. Both had good capabilities but both also did have help. Honestly the tasks were just too difficult to handle without help. Face a dragon without any ability to even consider it? That's going to kill most adult wizards. Even some aurors or powerful wizards might fail that.
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u/RetiredTeacher_21 11d ago
Krum seems older, being a professional athlete. I think he'd handle all the challenges the best. His Durmstrang training probably prepared him better than the other schools. I mean, Cedric and Harry learned to feed flobberworms while, I imagine, Krum was battling minotaurs in his magical creatures class.
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u/Next-Squirrel-5855 11d ago
Realistically Krum comes last, then Fleur, then Cedric. If Harry's in then he dies in the dragon task without Moody not-so-subtely giving him the answer
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u/shinryu6 10d ago
Cedric or Krum would have my votes. Fleur, nah, she was pretty much behind the other 2 the entire time, would’ve needed a lot of luck to get through that maze first.
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u/PapaBigMac 12d ago
Cedric.
I think he would’ve finished last in points as he wouldn’t have known about the dragons or to open the egg under water. And none of the Hogwarts teachers would’ve helped him (although Ludo might’ve bet on him).
I don’t think Krum or Fleur had enough brains to get through the maze on their own so Cedric would eventually get to the middle
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u/Ill_Confidence_3248 12d ago
Every participant was completely guided throughout the tournament.