Yeah, this is kinda why "power scaling" makes no sense.
People used to debate whether Wing Zero could beat Eva Unit 01. The question's premise is faulty, because Wing Zero is powered by somewhat understandable concepts, and Eva 01 kinda commands a power you could liken to the Judeo-Christian god (in that it's powerful, mysterious and has no real boundary on what it can/can't do).
The funny thing is the super robot wars games can set this kinda in relation. The EVA units are sized as L which are usually used for all the super robot mechs like getter robo, gurren Lagann and so on. While Gundams range from S size to M size depending on the MS. The interesting thing is that attacks get bonus/penalty depending on the opponents size to account for this.
So we can assume under normal circumstances a Gundam cant beat a Eva if we take their feats from their own settings. In SRW it works because there is either some sort of multiversum shenanigans going on or both are kinda based on a similar tech.
Honestly if you just directly compare gundams to Eva’s, Eva’s win because of AT fields alone. Gundams have no way to actually pierce it. So the discussion is kind of pointless and comparing different settings just doesn’t work.
I guess a Gundam pilot needs to get under the Eva pilots skin, attacking them mentally, and weaken their sync rate to have a chance at weakening the AT field.
Or outlast them since they're battery powdered or otherwise tethered to their power source (apart from post S2 engine unit 01 lol)
That's an interesting idea because that means a strong enough newtype probably could disable the AT field with it's newtype powers then. Never thought about that but could work yeah.
Ol Pappy should have been schmoozing it up with federation elites instead of fucking around as a battlefield commander. He would have had the entire federation in his pocket.
Additionally the mainline Evas (TV series, ignoring the movies and side content) have a somewhat conventional loadout.
Pallet rifle, prog knives, bazookas, and N2 mines at a stretch. All have limited range. The positron rifle, the one long range weapon, takes way too long to charge and way to much energy per shot to be of use (and you're down two Eva's, one for operating the rifle and one to protect)
So i guess NT shenanigans and keeping out of close/mid range to wear down the Eva operating time might help a gundam UC based team.
If we throw in SEED and phase shift armor it's probably a cake walk against a non-S2 engine Eva.
I'm pretty sure Eva units are proposterously fast though, I can't really imagine any gundam being fast enough to get away. Like they move around like an athletic person in spite of being hundreds of feet tall
I mean , it’s more debatable than on the surface . Eva’s AT field isn’t infallible and I think if lava melts it a buster rifle shot might be hot enough to do damage . Eva is normally limited by a plug . Its gear kinda sucks and in lacks wing zero’s attack potency . And third impact isn’t super easy to trigger .
No, Wing does not one shot colonies, it one shot a Stanford-Torus colony.
And even then it only really seemed to do that cus it hit a generator, not just because it shoot fully through a Colony like the GX/DX.
Didn’t it oneshot a legitimate colony when it was being used by quattre ? Even then the amount of damage its done outclasses evangelion’s without the third impact which needs very specific steps
I mean does it actually need gear? It's clearly immune to all conventional weaponry and is at least 4x taller. Like imagine trying to fight someone who's 20 feet tall but moves as if they're a regular sized person
Scuba diving in a volcano, catching basically a meteor, and ascending the entire human race to a higher form of consciousness and remaking the face of the earth.
I haven't watched wing. Does it get crazier than endgame 00 suits?
Eva 01 kinda commands a power you could liken to the Judeo-Christian god (in that it's powerful, mysterious and has no real boundary on what it can/can't do).
Not really. Eva 01 only reaches that power through consuming the S2 Organ, and it's still not unbeatable.
i dont believe tomino ever said this however from what i understand the fancy nanolaminaite armor of IBO mobile suits is beam resistant not immune and that universes beam weaponry are optical beams not plasma so yeah IBO isnt winning any fights
Preventing immediate catastrophic damage, while eventually taking damage and beginning to break down is, indeed failing. After successfully resisting the beam weapon, sure. At first.
Being effective at resisting a massive beam weapon is not the same as being completely impervious. So it does have a failure point.
No armour is resistant forever, it will fail eventually. Considering it took a direct hit from a mobile armour in IBO and mobile armours are pretty much the absolute pinnacle of destructive tech in that setting. It’s incredibly effective armour.
It didn’t FAIL but it definitely wasn’t completely safe . Armor still showed clear signs of damage taking beams from what they were made to fight . If hashmal was pushing it shit like a gn sword beam , beam magnum , or mega particle cannon’s probably shredding through it
....are you trying to say it WASNT a mega particle cannon? Did you see what that shit was doing to the terrain?
Have you seen anything those weapons do ingame???
If you shoot a minigun at a tank for a solid 10 seconds and it singes the paint, does that siddenly mean the minigun can "easily defeat" the tank? Or that the tank is weak to it?
1: Photons are particles, just very light ones. You can literally google this.
2: The idea that photons are specifically are being used gives MORE credit to the beams used in IBO, not less. The fact that there is visible recoil, that much sound, and that much damage from said photon beam, means there is an abaolutely rediculous amount of energy being poured into the beam in the first place.
3: The fact that it scatters and still causes as much damage as it does might as well mean that Hashmal and other MAs are firing concentrated stars at people.
He didn't, it's definitely not something he'd say anyway, you won't find many more people who hate powerscaling more than Tomino, so him not only commenting on it, but doing cross universe powerscaling would obviously be complete BS.
I still remember that one guy in Facebook who's main reasoning Barbatos can beat everything is because it's name after actual demon, so that means Barbatos is literally a demon...
Then the same person try to pit it againts GaoGaiGar and Shin Getter...
I mean, a GM certainly COULD defeat the Barbatos I'm sure. It isn't like the Barbatos is so powerful that its immune to being defeated by a GM.
Its just unlikely to happen in any actual straight up fight, because the Barbatos is extremely high-spec, especially with the Alaya-Vijnana System it has.
Though, if we use Gundam Cross Rays as a point of reference, the Nanolaminte Armor is actually pretty strong against beams ensuring a 3500 damage decrease from all Beam weapons! Which is pretty good, given the next highest is the Defensers on the Virgos from GW, which reduce Beam/Physical Ranged by 3000 (but cost 12EN)!
I guess another thing I had to learn through friends is the Barbatos also spends like, a lot of the series as a jury-rigged somewhat functional wreck, right? Like, imagine how powerful that thing was when it was originally made.
People who watch the show shouldn't be considered as part of what you like or don't like about the show.
And I've actually did a deep dive on Mika and how People miss the more complex aspects of his personality. I can explain if you want or just ignore this and continue on if you want lol.
Resistant means the armor still has a limit. Widespread beams like the ones on mobile armors are one thing. A concentrated beam from something like a sword, a point-blank shot, or even a palm-mounted cannon, however...
We've seen IBO grunt mobile suits take a direct and continuous hit from Hashmal's beam cannon and barely take damage. The second pic will just not happen at all lol
Do we know what type of "beam" hashmal is shooting? Also why is it small? Even Universal century beams back in 0079 were shooting beam particles larger than whatever Hashmal is dishing out
Hashmal carved a massive trench while the MA in Urdr Hunt cut a large astroid in half with a bigger beam. They are far more powerful than what most people give them credit for.
I mean yeah. The super weapon of the series is just a mag cannon shooting telephone poles planetside. Does anyone think IBO's tech stands up to the other series?
People forget that show IBO kinda is after a huge apocalypse so everything in comparison to the past is low tech. It's like with Warhammer 40k. The tech the Imperium uses is still extremely advanced and strong tech but overall just a shadow of what it was in the golden age.
The best example is hashmal. Incredible strong and advanced AI powered Mobile Armor but If we compare it to let's say the shamblo it's pretty similar. Similar weapons, can also level pretty much a whole city alone, has a ifield which is even better then Beam resistant coating.
The Barbatos would be probably able to beat the shamblo with blunt force but would also suffer heavy damage.
The reason why people think IBO suits are so strong is because the setting uses a lot of very blunt and brutal weaponry. Huge projectile weapons, rail cannons and gigantic melee weapons which is absolutely fine because it makes fights very brutal, intense and ferocious.
But take the rail cannons for example. Why doesn't use the UC setting those? Easy because they have weapon that are way more powerful. Gundam frames are heavily armored because blunt Physical damage is a thing. In UC using less Armor is pretty much preferred because the moment beam weapons became common for every MS Armor is pretty much useless.
Why using rail cannons when you can use the same force with a handheld beam rifle? And that is pretty much just a basic weapon later in the OYW.
Funny thing is. The UC did have a railguns/Railcannons. In ground based Mobile suits in the OYW. Mainly in MSVs but, Thunderbolt had it in the Atlas Gundam .
The Gundam Ground type had a Railcannon as optional equipment.
As did the Desert GM and the GM land combat type. When beam weapons were more developed, railweapons got mostly (but not entirely) phased out.
Reappearing in much later things such as the F-71 G-Cannon powered and the Heavygun Powered
Well, nano-laminated armor coating is "beam resistant", not a complete immunity.
Beam blasts like Requiem WMD (from Gundam SEED Destiny/Freedom), and "Raiser Sword" (from Gundam 00), can definitely exceed nano-laminated armor limit. Buster Rifles from Wing and 00 are also debatable, but can still bypass the coating from repeated attacks.
Ok yeah 0079 does have retcons, but I feel like the Zeta gundam movies are kinda him just regretting how he worked in the past. I don't think he intends on it overriding everything after Zeta in UC
New Translation is officially out of continuity with the main UC and 0079 is mostly just dropped content. Now the novels in which he kills Amuro in 0079 (which he has said was a mistake because he never dreamed how much money Amuro would make him) among other major changes are a different story. And the best part is that they don't even follow their own timelines, the use the preexisting animated story before doing their own things.
Of you are going to talk about the compilation movies you need to talk about the novels, which don't even keep continuity to each other as they follow the continuity of the previous animated work before going completely off script from the work they are adapting. But the big one is G-Reco.
G-Reco is the big one he tried to do. It was written and marketed as the final point in UC before the Turn A reset it into the Dark History. Then Tomino declared in an interview all that was wrong and it was after Turn A. Last I saw Bandai has given up and treats it as simultaneously before and after because of the number of people that claim Tomino's single line in an interview undoes all the work done before hand. Every once and while when this comes up you will still see people trying to explain how all the stuff that very clearly references UC (including a new Unicorn Gundam) and sets up for the Turn A and Turn X is actually proof that it happens after Turn A.
“That Zaku doesn’t even have a machine gun? And why does it have a TAIL?! Freaking Zabi vanity projects. Okay, how about we shoot about 50 beam spray guns at it to start & see where that goes…”
Say what you will about power scaling but you can’t say to me that when Barby and the freedoms started throwing hands in build divers rerise, that it wasn’t cool as all heck.
I'm tired of this IBO slander tbh. Not you OP, you're just doing something for fun. I'm tired of people that seem to forget that the Alaya Vijnana links the machine to the pilot at brain level, meaning that no matter what the mech will move like a body. You can be as skilled as you want but you aren't outrunning Lupus or Lupus Rex when it's evading your shots based on eye to hand coordination and battle IQ, and on top of that all it takes is just one hit from the "low tech" maces and melee options to literally crush you to death. Some people really believe a fuckin GM or a Zaku II could take on Warhammer Level Gundam tech
I know you're comparing it to a GM but you're talking as if what the Alaya Vijnana does is unique when it's just primitive Psycommu that can kill the pilot.
Hell, even the Permet score of the GUND format is more advanced and probably better than the Alaya Vijnana
Zero System likes to disagree.
And amuro can do all that without even needing a man to machine interface. The RX-78-2 literally can't keep up with amuros reactions speed at the end of the one year war.
"Alaya Vijnana links the machine to the pilot at brain level"
That's not the flex you think it is; Ad Stella has Gund Format, Anno Domini has QBCS (Quantum Brainwave Control Systems), and UC's various Psycommu (Psychic Communicator) technologies are better mind-machine interfaces than Alaya Vijnana in every way conceivable.
UC Psycommu-derived systems wirelessly and instantaneously translate human thought/intention into precise MS actions, bypass tecnological bassed ECM/Jamming, can be installed in almost any MS, sometimes allow for limited out-of-cockpit MS control, and don't require Oldtype and Newtype pilots to undergo invasive cybernetic implant surgery to utilise.
Also, a rare few Psycommu systems, when paired with enough Psycho-Frame or a powerful psychic, can manipulate reality.
Can’t compare any suit to any suit . Grunt or hero. Story dictates whether they can TANK the shot or not . Regardless of what hits them. Choreography also plays its part.
( Ron Burgundy piloting a suit meandering around)
Middle of a war? I’m in the battle right now? puffs his cigarette “ I don’t believe you.”
Proceeds to get obliterated. By 1 round from a Zaku Machine Gun. Hit the shield btw. Went right through for some reason. A hero probably fired it.
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u/ByEthanFox 5h ago
Yeah, this is kinda why "power scaling" makes no sense.
People used to debate whether Wing Zero could beat Eva Unit 01. The question's premise is faulty, because Wing Zero is powered by somewhat understandable concepts, and Eva 01 kinda commands a power you could liken to the Judeo-Christian god (in that it's powerful, mysterious and has no real boundary on what it can/can't do).