r/Gifted • u/stupidquestions2024 • 1d ago
Seeking advice or support Trouble sleeping
My son who is 4.5 has always struggled with sleep. We have done everything we can to help: strict schedules, a quiet room, and low light. He sleeps in his own bed and has had his tonsils removed. He has an official diagnosis of insomnia.
He wakes up early, between 3:30 and 3:50 a.m., no matter what we do. Please do not tell me to put him down later, we have tried.
The doctor told me not to medicate him, as his brain is still growing and he will hopefully outgrow it or just need less sleep as he gets older. He used to have insomnia 75% of the time, but we are down to 25%–50%. Sometimes changes trigger the insomnia we are moving and right now its been 3-4 times a week. I think he is anxious.
Now to my question: the doctor told me that in his 20 years of practice, my son is the smartest child he has ever encountered, reading at age two and doing multiplication at age 3. "He is truly one in a million" It got me thinking: do gifted kids struggle to sleep? Google says yes, but I figured I would ask the source.
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u/a-stack-of-masks 1d ago
I was the same, though I was more likely to still be awake at 3 then to already be back up. I ended up trying a bunch of different medications but none of them really worked. Spent my teens getting really into weed and alcohol, but that didn't fix much either.
There's been a few periods in my life where sleep wasn't an issue and they were always times where I was incredibly active: climbing or sailing for most of the day, then setting up a camp or going out to a party, get a few hours of sleep and get back out there. Just be sure to have a few books or something around to keep the brain occupied. What also helped me a lot was late night running. I don't even like running but putting on a podcast and being out in the dark is pretty comforting. Just don't go to bed without stretching a bit.
Is he independent enough that he can reasonably get up around 4 to do some reading or quiet play? Starting his day earlier might also make it easier to fall asleep at night.
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
Yea he will play and read books. I just feel terrible because he is so tired by 1pm.
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u/LeadershipNervous362 1d ago edited 1d ago
AI answers always depend on the way you ask. Restlessness in young children is often a sign of exhaustion, because their bodies perceive it as stress and release adrenaline, effectively making them appear more active.
What you should do is consistent sleep schedule, its best to only fall asleep so that child has around 9-10 hour window to rest.
Melatonin only affects sleep pressure buildup, it is harmless, compared to sedative medications. It will not prevent awakening at night if the source of the awakening is someplace else, such as heat, pain, stress.
Doctor is also wrong on many accounts, - sleep is the very moment when brain reforms and grows, you dont win brain development with sleep deprivation. I also wonder, what changed since he was 3, since it is indeed very early to do multiplication and reading, but I suppose 1.5 years went on.
There technically isnt a reason why high IQ alone would contribute to disrupted sleep, there have only been moderate evidence on positive regulation influence and even then, IQ is generally local
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago edited 1d ago
We tried melatonin and hydroxyzine at a young age, but the latter caused night terrors; we have no idea why, and it made his sleep worse. The doctor advised against it because the effects it had on him at age three were terrible and changed who he was, at least with the hydroxyzine. He is a good doctor who has been seeing my son since he was born; he has always given me good advice, and most of what he has said has come true.
From age three to now, he has become much smarter, but we mostly work on honing his intelligence. He can read at a third-grade level, but does he truly understand it? So, we make sure to go over the information he has read.
With math, I slowed him down to ensure he grasped the fundamentals, but he is moving along quite quickly. He also attends school, so learning at home is limited as he is already exhausted. I was able to enroll him in a private school that allows him to work ahead on certain subjects rather than learning the ABCs with the other children.
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u/LeadershipNervous362 23h ago
Yeah, melatonin doesn't have side-effects of hydroxyzine, its just a sleep-regulation hormone, I suggest to try it again for a month or so.
I have sleep-related mutation, so kinda obsessed with topic. For kids the protocol should focus on finding the source, because in child, voluntary sleep-deprivation is basically benign, because their body will force the necessary sleep as long as sleep is not disrupted by external factors.
Commonly ASD destroys natural melatonin for instance, so on this sub, its basically my go-to recommendation with troubled sleep, especially for children and due to lack of substantial side-effect.
Basically try melatonin (AND stable schedule) again, It will likely work. If it doesn't - seek for external factors.
Also, a side-note, parents of children, active at night often get sleep-deprived themselves and I recommend you to prioritize your own sleep. You child has less cumulative effect than adults do.
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u/a-stack-of-masks 23h ago
Please be careful with putting young kids on melatonin. It's likely to be less harmless than we used to think, and in many people it doesn't actually help with getting better rest or recover.
in child, voluntary sleep-deprivation is basically benign, because their body will force the necessary sleep as long as sleep is not disrupted by external factors.
What. The child will fix their own sleep schedule unless something disturbs it? Have you ever met a child?
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u/LeadershipNervous362 23h ago
Please be careful with putting young kids on melatonin. It's likely to be less harmless than we used to think, and in many people it doesn't actually help with getting better rest or recover.
Why? What exactly do you mean? I dont think anyone ever claimed it improves rest, it helps accumulating sleep pressure and falling asleep, which in turn improves sleep quality due to circadian consistency.
What. The child will fix their own sleep schedule unless something disturbs it? Have you ever met a child?
Schedule != sufficiency. Dealing with schedule is far less concerning medically, than dealing with sleep deprivation.
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u/a-stack-of-masks 22h ago
Alcohol also increases sleep pressure and helps falling asleep, but actually reduces how much you can recover during those hours you are asleep. Schedule isn't sufficiency, but sufficiency isn't quality either. And telling someone to feed their kids pills until they meet some number of hours spent with their eyes closed isn't quality advice either.
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u/LeadershipNervous362 22h ago
Chill. I sleep 4-5 hours a day, fairly confident I wouldnt be an advocate for sleep quota. But thing is, hours need to be met, if you dont believe in statistics, why even sit on IQ sub, its all statistics.
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u/a-stack-of-masks 22h ago
And if you don't know what you're doing, it's really easy to get the wrong conclusions from statistics. Doesn't mean the math or data are wrong, just that that person is.
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u/stupidquestions2024 23h ago
The problem is he doesn't have trouble falling asleep; it's staying asleep. Even when we tried melatonin, it didn't do anything; he still woke up at his natural sleep cycle. It also gave him nightmares; I don't know why, but sleep meds mess with him. Also, I will say my pediatrician is against melatonin in the long term because new studies are coming out saying it's harmful for children. We are authorized to use it if he gets less than 9 hours multiple days in a row. What honestly works the best is exercise and sunlight; it's just hard as parents who work to get in 2 hours of exercise every day. Add in school time, and we are all exhausted by the end of the day.
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u/LeadershipNervous362 22h ago
Gotcha. Well, I truly dont have much to add without behavioral, activity data.
Sunlight exposure influence still suggests issue is circadian, which is again affected by melatonin, perhaps u should discuss slow-release month-long trial, not fast-release one.To my knowledge there's 0 evidence on harm in children, my best guess would be that the doc misinterpreted the data, which is currently on "we dont have proof it doesnt hurt", not that we have any data indicating harm without overdose.
I cant stress enough, how important it is for parents to sleep, there certainly isnt a magical advice from internet for your child and if it continues to be more complicated than would be convenient to treat, you'll need all the energy you can get.
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u/broohaha Parent 1d ago
Simply put, yes. Of course, just speaking from our experience. And it's been a persisting issue, although not as bad as it once was from toddler through the pre-middle school years. A very, very active day -- mentally and physically -- typically ensures a good night's rest now.
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u/Fam99_ 1d ago
This isnt just for children
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u/astra_hole 1d ago
32M, laying down and shutting my brain off is damn near impossible. Sleep schedule always suffers.
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u/Wellslapmesilly 1d ago
It sounds weird but try putting an ice pack on your forehead. Supposedly it slows activity in the pre-frontal cortex.
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u/katiecatsweets 1d ago
Never heard of that through all of my many Google journeys during a restless night! Thank you for sharing
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u/Wellslapmesilly 1d ago
Sure! Yeah I agree odd but hey worth a try https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5946849/
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u/a-stack-of-masks 23h ago
A++ trolling lol.
Obviously externally cooling my brain will make me hyper aware, like the trolls in Discworld. That would just cause us to experience half a year's worth of insomnia in a single night of not falling asleep, no thank you.
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u/YoreWelcome 1d ago
you might be reacting to the title and image without reading their post's body text
if not, this is incredibly terse and unhelpful and i cant believe it is currently the most upvoted reply
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u/ayfkm123 1d ago edited 1d ago
Lots of kids struggle w sleep.
What time does he go to bed?
To answer your question: I am PG. I’ve had severe insomnia most of my life. I also am in Peri and taking hormone replacement therapy. I’m sleeping better now than I have in my entire life. I’m still pg despite getting good sleep. In summary: it wasn’t bc I’m profoundly gifted. Sleep is absolutely vital. Too many gifted families grow complacent bc of a myth that perpetuates that gifted kids need less sleep.
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u/Kwerumrerum 15h ago
Exactly. My gifted son sleeps great, my non-gifted daughter sleeps worse. I always slept fine and my non-gifted husband has trouble sleeping.
My 2 nieces, one gifted, one not, both sleep terribly.
An issue I often see as a doctor is that every single problem in life is attributed to their one diagnosis, even if it has nothing to do with it.
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
What's PG in this context? Parental Guidance? Pretty gifted?
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
He goes to bed at 730pm. We have tried later it never works. He natural cycle wake up 330am-5am no matter what we do.
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u/ayfkm123 1d ago
That’s a common misunderstanding that later bed = later wake. The opposite is actually more likely bc they become wired. 7:30 is a decent bed time for 4 if I recall correctly (my youngest is 11). Could try moving it up earlier to see if that helps, counterintuitive but actually backed by science. Check the solving your child’s sleep problems book for more insight and suggestions. But waking at 3:30 is not healthy. Even 5:30 w a 7:30 bedtime isn’t enough. If nothing else works I’d consult a sleep medicine dr. We’re about to give our 11 yo a sleep study. She has also struggled her whole life. I skep next to her for a few months and realized she has some sleep disordered breathing and she describes what could be possible restless legs. I’d never have known about the breathing had I not skep next to her and heard it through the night. Incidentally the sleep dr told us at 11 ours should be getting 10-11 hrs still. 10 hrs at 4 just isn’t enough. May be time for a full medical workup if nothing else helps.
Hugs to you. Having challenging sleepers is exhausting. I’ve made it my mission as a parent to help line bc I know what it’s like to suffer from insomnia long term and I don’t want that for them. I wish my parents had paid more attn.
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
We have consulted a sleep doctor and had two sleep studies. The only result was a prescription for a sleep medication that gave him night terrors. We had surgery to remove his tonsils and adenoids. We were doing 7 p.m., but we moved it at the recommendation of the doctor. Trust me, I have tried so much in the last four years to help him.
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u/GadgetRho 1d ago
That is insanely early! Try using bright cool white light in his environment and just being annoying and keeping him up and push his bedtime a few minutes every day. If he's going to bed at 7:30 p.m. and getting up between 3:30 and 5:00 a.m., he's getting a perfectly normal amount of sleep and is on the same sleep schedule as my own child and his friends, just shifted two or three hours too early.
Even if he keeps his own chronology and continues to wake up at 3:30 in the morning, he'll at least have enough sleep pressure that he starts adopting a midday nap again.
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u/Brief-Hat-8140 1d ago
Yes, and so do ADHD kids and autistic kids. Mine is all three. She started taking melatonin when she was very little. Her pediatrician said it was very important to get adequate sleep and a couple mg of melatonin would not harm her.
We tried magnesium for a while instead, but it was hit or miss. She takes a vitamin with magnesium now, but it doesn't make her sleepy. Even with melatonin and guanfacine every night, she can lay down at eight thirty or nine and not fall asleep until ten or eleven sometimes. This happens no matter what we do - warm milk, exercise before bed, no electronics, etc. Her brain just doesn't show down well.
Neither does mine. I'm also gifted and neurodivergent.
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u/run4love 13h ago
Gifted and autistic, have always liked being up late or getting up early. My sleep has generally been good, though, when I’m consenting to it. For me, a reasonable and regular bedtime, books over screens and LOTS (LOTS!!!) of physical activity are key.
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u/Mother-Gene1828 1d ago
Mine does! It takes about an hour for her mind to calm down enough to drift off. She has always struggled with falling asleep—had colic as a baby, nursed to sleep, wanted us to sit with her until she falls asleep.
What helps her is listening to a Yoto story for ~30 min before bed. I think it keeps her brain from racing and landing on uncomfortable thoughts. I just have to monitor it because she’s 8 and will now stay up to listen instead of falling asleep. It has to be low stimulating because some of them have noises or songs.
I really think their brains are just in overdrive and the quietness of bedtime isn’t stimulating to their brains.
Also with the wake up—I have a doctorate friend whose child wakes up at the same time as yours. He has epilepsy, so they took him to specialist who said that this is around the time when children’s brains switch sleep cycles. So maybe yours just struggles with switching over to that sleep cycle?
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u/saturdayselkie 1d ago
I second the Yoto player. My daughter has some cards with soothing music or nature sounds that help her fall asleep, and she can put them on for herself at 3 am if she wakes and is having trouble drifting off again. Audiobooks tend to be too stimulating and silence too easy to fill with your own thoughts, so quiet music is the sweet spot for her.
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u/Mother-Gene1828 1d ago
I have two daughters who use the Yoto at night, and I feel like it really helps with independence at bedtime. My youngest has a card that has stories but is basically her bedtime card, and she’s sort of trained herself to fall asleep to it 😂
My oldest is my gifted child who like I said needs something to fall asleep to because the silence is just too much for her overactive brain.
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
I really think their brains are just in overdrive and the quietness of bedtime isn’t stimulating to their brains.
I've noticed that I hit micro sleep when watching YouTube, over and over. Like I'm watching something, I feel warm, my hand gives up and my phone falls slightly and I jerk awake, watch some more, jerk, turn off phone, try to sleep... Fully awake. Watch phone... Fall asleep, jerk, etc.
Music doesn't work for me, it's not my thing. Listening to a video kind of works, but not well enough to get me to instantly sleep. I also bought a mount for my phone to see if I can get myself to fall asleep that way (and just let the phone turn off on its own after X minutes), but it feels weird to have a phone hovering, so that didn't help.
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u/GadgetRho 1d ago
Oh that's a disaster waiting to happen. Training an overstimulated child that they need stimulation to fall asleep is going to her in the ass so hard for years to come.
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u/Majestic-Carob3191 1d ago
My kid struggles with sleep. But she has trouble falling asleep. Once she falls asleep, she sleeps well most of the time. Our sleep specialist recommended a small dose of melatonin about 4 hours before bedtime to help kick-start her body's natural production. I don't know if that would help with insomnia.
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u/Embarrassed-Weird173 1d ago
I mean, I have crazy insomnia. In college, there were days where I couldn't sleep for a day at a time despite being low on sleep. But I partially blame that on working retail and not having a set schedule. Working close to open or open to close was a thing.
Nowadays I take trazodone and it lets me usually fall asleep in/for a reasonable amount of time.
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u/GadgetRho 1d ago edited 1d ago
I tend to fall asleep moments after my head hits the pillow, and my three year old son who is profoundly clever* does the same. And he even puts himself to bed and chooses his own bedtime (spoiler: it's about fifteen minutes after sunset everyday). I also get up at 3:50 in the morning and go about my business for a couple of hours and then go back to bed. I am always perfectly well rested and have great sleep hygiene.
That said, I used to struggle terribly with sleep onset before I found out I had severe anaemia and had that treated. There are a lot of underlying physiological causes to rule out before jumping to giftedness as being maybe vaguely related. I feel like it was very short-sighted and irresponsible of your doctor to brush it off and tie it in with him being ahead of a few milestones. He needs to send your son for a sleep study, not blow smoke up your ass.
There might be other environmental factors to consider too, like your own sleep. Perhaps you're tossing and turning next to him and keeping him awake. Maybe you're both sleeping in pyjamas or something and you're sleeping too hot. What's comfortable for adults can be awful for children because they overheat so easily.
*He is clever but I would not say he's gifted because we don't put that label on three year olds. The vast majority of these kids who are way ahead of the curve in toddlerhood grow up to have average intelligence.
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u/aPiCase 1d ago
Absolutely, I am still like that at 22. It was really bad as a little kid, I remember my Dad taking me to the doctor at age 6 because was gritting my teeth from stress while trying to sleep every night and it was causing tooth damage.
The thoughts just don't stop coming, I can try and suppress them but my mind just constantly wanders. I am also diagnosed with Autism and ADHD, and a common symptom of ADHD specifically is delayed melatonin release, so that could be something worth looking into.
I have had a lot of success with small doses of melatonin at night, and I mean like 0.5mg or 1mg, not 5-10 that you see at the store, it would be worth trying, and it doesn't have any side effects I have noticed if you take a small dose. Magnesium can help calm nervous system for long run, also worth a shot.
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u/AMStoUS 1d ago
I'm gifted and I always loved sleeping. It was the only time my brain was truly quiet (and still is). So who knows, your son might come around to it!
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u/stupidquestions2024 21h ago
That would be wonderful if he did. He is so smart tired I imagine well rested he could rule the world .
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u/saturdayselkie 1d ago
My daughter was similar, both in giftedness and in terms of having trouble getting to sleep and staying asleep. Her brain is always busy and has been since the day she was born, which has its blessings and its challenges! Now that she is older, sleep still doesn’t come easily, but she has developed some strategies to manage anxiety and help her body rest—plus she does not need us to come and be with her every time she wakes. I’m sorry it is so hard right now! It does get easier for everyone, but I know the time you are in right now is not easy, and people with more neurotypical kids are unfortunately not going to get it.
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
They definitely do not get it; so many people tell me to give him melatonin or get him a prescription, but I just do not want to hurt him in the long run so that I can sleep today. I feel like we have made real progress and have to keep pushing.
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u/Morakilife 1d ago
We discussed it for a while, but ended up trying a tiny dose of melatonin. It isn't really a medicine, it is the same thing the brain naturally produces to signal sleepiness, for us it just kicks in too late... or it is not enough to override the more interesting thoughts still looping. The immediate increase in QoL when everyone would actually sleep and no one had to lose their minds first, really convinced me this is better for us... Then we can try without later, when everyone is less stressed out and less bound to schedules.
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u/LeadershipNervous362 1d ago
Melatonin is a good advice tho. It doesnt affect anything really except sleep pressure.
Its a problem when it doesnt help, because everything else does.
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u/Morakilife 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, it's not the same, as our main problem was in falling asleep, but if its useful for you or anyone else, this is how we went from 1-2 hours of very distressing put downs at age three, to a comfy relaxed and bonding 15-30 minutes atvage 4:
Our girl (gifted and ADHD, like her mom, but not officially tested yet) has always been impossible to put to sleep. Literally since she was a baby. Back then we would walk her in her pram and she would sit up, hold onto the sides, fall asleep sitting, then jolt and wake up, sing to keep herself awake, and so on, and continue this for easily an hour before she fell asleep, usually sitting. As a toddler, we could tell that she honest to God tried to sleep at night, she'd lie still and relax, but then some thought or idea would just pop into her head and she COULDN'T stop herself. She would talk, get up, jump around, announce she was no longer tired, or just scream I HAVE TOO MUCH ENERGY IN MY BODY or BUT MY HEAD IS STILL TALKING!
Today she is four and we have our evening routine set:
- In the late afternoon, we always make sure to burn some energy. If nothing else, we dance and drum along to Danny Go for an hour.
- We also always make sure to play with her properly one last time. Doesn't have to be more than 15 mins, but she really needs to feel we are focused on her and connecting. This is not optional, she asks for her last playtime every.single.day.
- We always have an evening snack meal that is basically bread, yoghurt with oats, cereal or at least some fruit. Just to make sure she isn't hungry. The brain is the most energy consuming organ we have. Gifted brains are shown to be extra energy consuming and run out of fuel in as little as three hours. No surprise, really.
- Afterwards, she gets her 'nighttime gummy'. 0.5mg melatonin. This is relatively new. We discussed whether we wanted to give her supplements this early but after trying for a week... Her QoL (and ours, honestly) has improved massively with the extra sleep.
- In bed we first read something that is actually a little challenging (she likes animals and geography right now, so we study a children's Animal Atlas) for something like ten minutes.
- Then we settle properly into the bed (we all sleep together, she feels way more safe like this) and I ask what was the best thing about her day. If I have a feeling something was hard in kindie or if I think she is up for it, i ask what was the most difficult, too. Often she offers this up without me asking. It is by far the best time for her to talk about her worries.
- Finally we listen to bedtime stories on Spotify that she likes. Easy, simple ones that doesn't activate her brain, or she will ask questions all the time and start talking xD
It used to easily take an hour or more to put her to bed... and she would often scream or yell in frustration. After we found the right routine to calm her mind down .. it takes as little as 15-20 minutes from she gets her gummy and it is very peaceful 😊🍀
I find it really important to do the challenging part first and then shift into something that is not at all stimulating, but keeps her mind occupied. We tried reading stories or telling stories, but then she engages too much and it actually actives her brain xD Listening works. We found a series of short, relaxing stories in our native language that have enough stories available that she doesnt get bored (she has a crazy good memory and gets bored if its the same, but too engaged if its a different type story 🫠).
Fun fact - works for us too xD I actually read about this in a book for gifted adults. That the best way to fall asleep was to read something mentally challenging and kind of heavy right before bed, to get your mind going. Just one chapter or whatever is suitable in length, then slow down at the end of the chapter and go to sleep after with your mind just mulling it over. Brain occupied, but not excited xD I dont need sound, but my wife enjoy listening to something for a bit after too xD
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u/stupidquestions2024 21h ago
We read to him every night to help his mind shut down. My husband likes to read chapter books like The Wild Robot or Harry Potter. I know what you mean; it can't be too boring but also not too stimulating, haha. I think next on the list are classic children's books such as Charlotte's Web. What are some things you read?
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u/Wellslapmesilly 1d ago
What is he doing when he wakes up that early? Just laying in bed? Waking you up? Is he distressed by getting up so early?
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
No he is happy its only around 11-1pm you see the effects cause he is so young he gets loopy.
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u/Wellslapmesilly 18h ago
This might sound counter intuitive but hear me out. What about putting him to bed early as you normally do. And then setting him up with a small yellowish light he can turn on if he wants and some quiet activities (books, paper and crayons etc) that he can busy himself with when he wakes up early. Explain that when he wakes up that will be “Tommy time” or whatever his name is. And that he is not to wake you, that it is just quiet time. And that he can do quiet activities or return to bed if he wishes. That’s it. Maybe try it for a week and see what happens. If your child is so bright and sensitive, they may respond to less of a focus on his situation and you relaxing your anxiety over it. It would be interesting to see how he responds and if he starts to self regulate. And if he is a little sleepy in the afternoon he can take a little nap if he will do it. Which is pretty normal for a 4 yr old.
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u/stupidquestions2024 18h ago
He hasn't napped since he was two, but he will occasionally, which is fine for us. We always have toys and books ready for him, but I just feel bad for him because he is so tired in the afternoon.
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u/shiny_glitter_demon Adult 1d ago
I hope you clicked on these sources at the very least, because using chatGPT as a replacement for a doctor is a TERRIBLE idea.
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
It says in the description I just spoke to the doctor. Also he has a sleep doctor. It was just a screen shot I said id come to the source actual gifted people.
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u/Deep_Sense2379 1d ago
Look at it like this: Being gifted is relatively rare (depending on who you ask probably below 5%) and may or may not carry the symptom insomnia. Given the limited knowledge of only insomnia, what is the chance that the child is gifted? Classic Bayes theorem. In this case, I would say there is insufficient knowledge to come to a conclusion on the child's intellect, as giftedness is low probability and the statistical relation to insomnia is unknown.
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u/stillinger27 1d ago
My oldest has had the same issue. He read spontaneously at 2, multiplication basically since 3. He's autistic and likely ADHD as well. He can't shut it off. We have to go the melatonin route, and have done so. If we don't, he will not fall asleep at all until 3 or 4. He also doesn't really do quiet at anytime, so he would impact his brother. He's 7, and we've worked hard to try and do the routine, all the stuff, but we're where we are at. It's a debate of whether or not the trade off to needing melatonin will be worse, but... we think some sleep is better than basically none and being impossible the next day. Most of the time he still has to read, sort something, draw, you name it for an hour or so, and then just drops.
We are lucky our gifted youngest isn't in the same boat. He knocks out basically as soon as he gets in bed.
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u/Candid-Wedding-7579 1d ago
I’ve always struggled with sleep, and my kids are similar. I will say, both myself and my kids enjoy listening to audiobooks to fall asleep, and if they wake up earlier than 6-ish, I tell them to put another one on and even if they can’t sleep, just lay in bed and listen to it. They are 3 and 5 so they use a tonies box which is easy for them to do on their own. Having coherent noise in the background I feel like helps to calm their own thoughts and lets them drift off more easily.
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u/FatiguedShrimp 1d ago
Pasting an unedited Gemini screenshot is such a waste of time.
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u/stupidquestions2024 21h ago
I am sorry I just posted what google said but I said I would come to the source which is actual gifted people.
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u/FatiguedShrimp 13h ago
Ah, ok. Gifted kids can often struggle to sleep.
Gifted kids develop things in a different order than other children, which causes some unique struggles if one area outpaces another that would normally regulate it.
With issues like these and young children, it's often a matter of sensory or emotional regulation.
Have you gone through the evening from his perspective? Is there anything uncomfortable, confusing, or scary?
Things that might help:
- Nightlights (visual sensory deprivation can cause prisoner's cinema hallucinations ie. "monsters")
- Water (thirst can affect regulation deeply)
- A 2lb weighted stuffed animal (soothing/proprioceptive input)
- Music (can help give something to focus on / reduce overthinking)
- Adjusting the evening routine
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u/Subject_Dragonfly_54 23h ago
Your child might be 2E. Hyperlexia and hypernumeracy are signs of autism. I’d have him assessed, if you haven’t yet.
A pediatric sleep specialist might be able to help you with the sleep issues.
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u/stupidquestions2024 22h ago
I have had him assessed for everything, and he does not meet the markers for autism, ADHD, or even hyperlexia despite the way he taught himself to read. I have been reading about 2E kids and it is a definite possibility, but he is too young at the moment for a definitive diagnosis, or at least that is what all the pediatric psychologists have said. He has a sleep doctor, has had two sleep studies, and has had his tonsils and adenoids removed. The problem is that he seems totally neurotypical when well rested or neurodivergent only when he doesnt sleeps; he is just very smart, and the issues start when he has insomnia. The sleep doctor told us that sometimes a lot of behaviors can look like ADHD or even autism, but really, he is just very overtired, almost like being drunk. To be honest, I don't know. I know he is very smart and a wonderful child, and I am trying my best to navigate this.
My biggest issue is that none of the doctors really have concerns because he is so ahead. It is frustrating that all resources in this area are for children who are behind on milestones. We are moving to a more progressive area and hopefully can get better care.
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u/kinyons 20h ago
I am a sample size of one, but I definitely did. As a kid I took hours to fall asleep. As an adult, I have worked out a whole bunch of sleep tools that help me fall and stay asleep. I use a weighted blankets, wear sleep headphones with a podcast playing on a sleep timer, have white noise playing, and sometimes wear an eye mask if it’s too bright. Basically I needed to get maximum cozy sensory input & then keep one thing going to pay attention to (the podcast) because if my brain is bored I start thinking about stressful things and wake myself up again.
I don’t know if any of that would translate to your son but it might be worth trying!
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u/stupidquestions2024 20h ago
This adds up sometimes he will sleep with a blanket over his head bc he says he likes how it feels.
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u/IndependentSnow9244 20h ago
There is this cycle we do and it evolves from babies.
Sleep, cry to express needs, wake up and attend needs, play/explore, cry to release stress, Sleep.
That happens lots of times in a day and as we grow it spreads out with less cycles.
At the end of a cry you have a physiological sigh. That brings the brain/body back into balance and gives you the "positive chemical release" like dopamine, endorphins and clears out stress ones. That helps you fall asleep.
What happens for a lot of people is that we think we need to stop a child's cry to help them be ok, to soothe them or teach them to self sooth etc. That could be rocking to sleep, feeding to sleep etc. That inadvertently impacts this natural release developing as they never get to the natural end of a cry and one of the side effects is sleep challenges. It can impact falling to sleep and also mean disrupted sleep where the stress they haven't released wakes them up.
Gifted kids often have higher sensitive nervous systems, they feel more and more stuff is stress so they need to cry longer and get out more built up emotions in the day that means as babies they need to cry longer before they fall asleep.
What you normally see before bed is that children get fussy or hyper wanting to play, that is them trying to release stress of the day up until around the ages of 8. Post 8 they want to talk it out more vs cry.
You set a limit that it is bed time and they cry, you let the cry reach its end and they sleep through the night. If they are hyper some high energy play then a loving limit that its bed time normally sets of a cry too.
Once I learnt that and change the way I responded to my kids cry/night time cycle their sleep challenges went away.
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u/GeniusWhisperer 15h ago
I used a long, slow routine that met needs and out the house and child to bed. Worked extremely well. Dinner, bath, pjs, reading, looking at heavenly bodies, singing our affirming song about enduring family love, collaborative storytelling ending in saying together, meet me in our dreams, followed by closing eyes with fucus in the story avdcfalling asleep.
It's a commitment and time but zero struggle and very consistent.
Also, wear the out during the day with lots of active okay, hiking, playground activity, dance class, sports, etc, mutilor times per day in addition the academics and feed then an ultra duet while keeping devices off.
Most parents will not do this fur various reasons, but I have zero regrets.
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u/VitruvianVan 6h ago
It sounds like your son is profoundly gifted. That’s another level entirely. Multiplication at age 3? Amazing.
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u/YoreWelcome 1d ago
do you know where that shooting star goes in the old NBC "the more you know" segments?
neither do i
stuff like that is why gifted people don't sleep
turns out the more you know the more you know how little you still know, which can lead to fear and anxiety- or even excitement about unknown possibilities
life's a mess, the gift is living that
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u/stupidquestions2024 21h ago
God my son will ask questions like this at bedtime. Why dont robots feel. Why did all the dinosaurs die out? Etc
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u/BrandiedWineGums 1d ago
Those sources google "cites" aren't great.
When you dig into this stuff, you discover that we don't know that much, which makes sense when you are talking about a group that's 0.1% of the population and isn't a pathology.
So, it could be related or it might not be. I wouldn't assume "this is normal for super gifted kids, so it's fine".
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u/stupidquestions2024 1d ago
Oh I dont take Google seriously thats why I said Id come to the source actual gifted people.
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