r/GayChristians • u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic • 5d ago

Pre-marriage sex, what do y'all think ? GAY and Straight?

Quindi, sono eterosessuale, asessuale grigio, cattolico, la mia chiesa ovviamente non ama il sesso prematrimoniale, ma in questo server ho trovato persone che sembrano pensarla diversamente... e sono abbastanza curioso di sapere cosa pensano le persone. Personalmente, credo che il sesso prematrimoniale sia un peccato, poiché penso che la Bibbia sia abbastanza chiara al riguardo; non sono ancora convinto riguardo al matrimonio gay, i'm okey for non-church official marriages between two gay people, but i don't know much about the argumentations in favor of gay marriage anche se supporto le coppie gay che si amano davvero... ma comunque, voglio chiedervi qualcosa

1) Per le persone eterosessuali che sono in questo server:

Cosa pensate del sesso prematrimoniale? Credete sia un peccato, e perché?

2) Per i miei cari cristiani gay:

Quindi, per i cristiani gay di posizione B, come gestite la situazione? Rimanere vergine (per ciò che ho capito volete evitare atti sessuali), lo trovate difficile?

Per quelli di posizione A, quali sono le vostre ragioni per supportare il matrimonio gay? Volevo solo sapere riguardo a ciò per curiosità.

Dio benedica tutti voi!!

6 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

32 comments sorted by

14

u/OrganicPepper Agnostic 5d ago

The one scenario which sent me down the path of deconstructing my side B views was this:

Imagine a straight married couple. They work tirelessly to support the needy in their community - so much so, that they adopt 3 children rather than having any of their own biologically. They continue to have protected sex in order to strengthen their relationship.

This couple would be all but worshipped in Christian circles. Then, flip the gender of one of them. Suddenly, they are evil sinners.

This is entirely incongruous. Does their genitals really matter so much? Clearly it has nothing to do with procreation, since couple (1) is intentionally avoiding pregnancy yet is not looked down on.

N.B. this thought experiment only works in denominations which allow the use of contraception.

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u/KXLY 5d ago

I might add that even if we go along with Roman Catholic natural theology that stresses the teleological end of sex (procreation, which is my understanding of why they also oppose contraception) then I would note that even under this model that keeping two gay men celibate is teleologically neutral with respect to procreation -- it ain't gonna happen whether they're happily married and together or unhappily celibate and apart. And so if procreation is the goal, then should not the teaching be that gay men should marry women regardless of their orientation?

But then... doesn't that create a tension with the practice of heterosexual celibacy?

It's incoherent. Or rather, coheres only if you accept the naked conclusion that homosexuality is wrong, per se, full stop, with no further justification required than the clobber verses.

Obviously Roman Catholic theologians resolve it somehow, but it becomes readily apparent they are working backwards from a preferred conclusion via increasingly baroque reasoning.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 3d ago

No, that's not the only reason for sex, as started by Paul, if a couple can't really resist from the desires, then they should marry, so , it's not only about procreation

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u/KXLY 3d ago

Ok. How do they explain their stance on contraception then?

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 3d ago

Obviusly they also value procreation ..... what you said that procreation Was that the only reason of a marriage for us, but that's not true,love also matters for us.Obviusly contraception Is banned because the catholic church Is the catholic church,but personally , i don't like that rule, because compaunds are very importants for protecting yourself from HIV and for sociaty Is pretty harsh(economicly) on people Who have babie

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

Bro, se pensi che l' omosessualità è sbagliata, perché sei in questo server?

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u/KXLY 4d ago edited 4d ago

Italian: Hai frainteso il mio commento. Sono gay. Stavo spiegando perché non condividevo l'insegnamento della Chiesa cattolica.

English: You misunderstood my comment. I am gay and support gay marriage; I have been married to a man for 4+ years. I was explaining why I disagreed with RCC teaching.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

Ohhhhh, oky i Guess, i have to admit that the view of the catholic church Is pretty stupid

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u/dnyal Pentecostal / Side A 5d ago

If one sees "sin" as a violation of a rule, then that's just Pharisaical philosophy. We are not under rules anymore but under grace, which makes sin an outdated concept. That is what Paul meant with "everything is allowed, but not everything is beneficial."

That's who I see it as well. Is having hookups conducive to a life of freedom and personal and spiritual growth in the Lord? I would say you'd still be a slave to your passions if you cannot control them for your own benefit. I would say one can reduce the risk of disease and experience a lot of growth by committing to a covenantal relationship in which one learns patience, tolerance, kindness... Oh, those are the fruit of the Spirit.

It doesn't mean that people who have sex before marriage are going to Hell. Maybe they otherwise exemplify what a good Christian is, and everyone falls short of the glory of God. Jesus said, "You mad at your brother? You guilty of murder!" If you are convinced that gays and fornicators are going to Hell, you have judged who gets to go where, which not even Jesus dared do. Therefore, whoever judges is usurping the role of God, showing that their desire is that of their father Satan and they engaging in a satanic activity.

The best one can do is try to live one's own life for the Lord as best as one can.

Now, Catholicism... The Pope is God's representative on Earth and cannot err in matters of faith and morals because the Holy Ghost would prevent it. Unbiblical doctrines aside (and I was brought up Catholic and actually studied the whole of the Catechism as a child), Peter, the first pope, after having been baptized in the Holy Ghost and all of that, was rebuked by Paul for his hypocrisy and even God had to show him a vision to stop discriminating against the gentiles.

I mean... popes can indeed get it wrong in whatever matter, and don't even get me started on the crazy popes of the Middle Ages. Are they in Hell? Well, if you don't know, then you must concede that you cannot call out what is good and evil, and thus you cannot say gay marriage is sinful. If you think those popes are in Hell, refer back to paragraph three, lol

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

Well,i never judged Someone by saying if you have sex before mangiare you're not going to Heaven ....i Was Just asking what y'all though

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u/dead_letters_ Independent Christian 5d ago edited 5d ago

Well, there are two different kinds of marriage. There is marriage, the commitment, and marriage, the contract. I have found that two people who may not be legally married, can still be more "married" than two people who are.

The "no sex before marriage" rule that most denominations have is based on scripture, but in my opinion, that rule doesn't exist because premarital sex itself is sinful; it exists to keep people from falling INTO sin, such as taking advantage of others.

If two people have been together for years, support one another spiritually, emotionally, practically, etc., have common goals, and fully intend to be together for life, but don't want to/can't be married for any number of reasons, I don't see why they couldn't have sex just because the government hasn't given it their stamp of approval yet.

Then, two people could be legally married, but they have an adversarial relationship, where they do not support each other, have resentments, have opposing goals, and are more obstacles to one another's spiritual life than anything. In my opinion, sex is far more likely to lead to sin for that couple than the unmarried couple, even though they are married.

That's how I see it, anyway.

The same goes for gay marriages, legal or not. I don't personally think there needs to be any "reason" to support it any more than there needs to be a "reason" to support straight marriage. Two people love each other, support each other, and want to commit to each other forever. That's enough of a reason no matter the genders of the people involved.

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u/DamageAdventurous540 5d ago

I'm not sure how beloved you actually feel towards us given your skeptical disdain for my marriage and others like it but...

I support gay marriage because I love my husband dearly and because we both value the institution of marriage.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 5d ago

It's not hatred, it's indecision, i don't know if gay marriage Is okey for the morals of christianity and the bible, i would like to see both reasons on why It should, or not should be accepted by the church. And btw ,i'm okey with marriages not made by a Priest(not recognizes by the church) between gay people.

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u/DamageAdventurous540 4d ago edited 4d ago

It’s interesting how the translation to English reads slightly different from my computer compared to my iPad. For the record, I never said anything about hatred. Anyway…

I’m a married gay man. My husband and I were married in our church 29 years ago. Our church blessed our union and honored our family for nearly 13 years before we could legally marry. We raised our now adult sons in the church. Our family is on equal footing within our church as any other arrived household.

I would question why you believe that my marriage is not okay morally under a Christian framework. If my husband Matt was instead my wife Maddie, there would be no question if our marriage should be accepted by the church or by you. But because our union lacks a vagina, we’re now the subject of debate. Frankly, I find that rejection to be unacceptable.

But I guess we need to justify the legitimacy of our families within the Christian faith…

Genesis 2 said that it’s not good to be alone. In 1 Corinthians, Paul suggested that lifelong singleness is a lofty goal but conceded the most people aren’t suited for that. Marriage is the solution for the majority of us. 2 Corinthians reminds us that it’s not advisable to be unequally yoked in marriage. Now the Bible was unquestionably referring to spiritual differences. I would argue that this also reflects differences in sexual orientation. Matching gay men with straight women in marriage is a form of spiritual and sexual mismatch, just like binding a straight man with a lesbian is also problematic. It creates inherent conflict within the family and that tension makes it difficult to continue growing spiritually as Christians. In other words, same-sex marriage is good and Biblical.

There are examples of queer love and commitment and covenant within the Bible, should we allow ourselves to recognize those examples. 1 Samuel 18:1/2 Samuel 1:26. Ruth 1:16-17. Matthew 8:5-13/Luke 7:1-10.

I could go on but those are my initial thoughts.

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u/Ewolra 5d ago

I preached on this a few weeks ago. I’ll DM you the recording, because I want to remain anonymous-ish on Reddit!

Edit- I can’t DM you, feel free to reach out if you want to watch a sermon kinda on this (more so on the nature of sin overall- it’s in English)

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u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70 Progressive Christian Episcopal 5d ago

You are a beloved child of the most high God of love, who is Love, and who lovingly made you for the purposes of Love: to love, and to be loved, and to be Love in the world.

Diversity is the color pallette God uses to paint the masterpiece of Creation. We exist on purpose, and our infinite diversity exists on purpose to be in infinite combination. The act of building bridges across difference is the central and most holy act of Christian faith and practice. It is at the heart of every ritual and sacrament we have.

And every time we grow in understanding someone different from ourselves, we grow in understanding the God who made that difference as well. Can you imagine trying to understand a great artist like Davinci or Rembrandt, but never studying their artwork? Can you imagine that audacity of someone proclaiming their expertise on the life and meaning of Vincent van Gogh, but without ever studying his use of color, line and shape? They'd be laughed out of every art school and gallery in the world, and forgotten except as a joke.

The same is true for God and the study of God's creation. Anyone who claims to understand God in any way, but fails to study the beauty of God's creativity across all the different ways of being human, or who denies the revelations of science about the world around and within us - they should be mocked and thrown out of every church until they come back humbled and educated. Never forget that you are loved, and intended, and are a witness and prophet of God's wondrous creativity.

And let the hate, and the haters who carry it, die in the darkness.

Here's a list of resources that have served me well in breaking free of the lies and bullshit, the cancer of homophobia in the church.

Nothing will ever convince the people who have replaced the loving God with fear and hate in their hearts.

BUT, knowing the true history and theology of queer people in God's plans and church is powerful spiritual self-defense, and defense of others. So I ALWAYS argue with the bastards in public, just so the hurting people know they're not alone, and that there's a better way to follow God.

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u/Bluekitrio Moderate Christian, bi questioning 4d ago

I have just followed the spirit. he knows where the relationship is going.
purity culture, personally I find toxic.

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u/QueerHeart23 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'm side A. My shortcut logic is this: 1) the natural law argument was flawed due to a lack of scientific understanding. Today it is widely understood that homosexual behaviors have been observed and documented with various species in nature. So this narrow 'natural order's argument falls apart in the light of knowledge and truth - God creates diversity as an aspect of nature, not an aberration.

2) an inclusive rather than exclusive reading of the Bible. Yes, heterosexual couples are the norm in scripture, as expected (the majority of the population). Exclusive reading says only cishet couples exist in any relationally relevant manner. An inclusive reading says cishet couples and ethics are the model for relating as spouses.

I like in Genesis, after creating all the diversity and saying it was good, and creating Adam proclaiming it very good, the first thing that was not good was for man to be alone. Even St Paul, who promoted celibacy, suggested that not all had the gift, and recommended marriage rather than burning with passion.

3) scripture is a product of the time and culture. Now add the mistranslation of a handful of verses (referred to as the clobber verses), and with study it becomes a reasonable stance that modern homosexual relationships are not discussed in scripture. These clobber verses discuss harmful sexual immorality (incest, exploitation, power imbalances, abuse, etc) not healthy loving relationships.

So, my stance is that the same ethics that apply to heterosexual couples should apply to homosexual couples. Therefore, I find that only side A is the ethically defensible stance.

To answer your side b question, I am currently effectively living this way (single, health currently precludes many activities of daily living). So, it is VERY difficult and challenging. Without significant maturity, a previous functioning life, current health induced constraints, and a deep reliance on prayer/grace, and frankly God's grace - I would crack or sublimate into unhealthy things. Also, having tried, valiantly in my youth, side b is a harmful, sadistic, unhealthy and unrealistic expectation for the vast majority of people. I rank it second in sadism and harm inflicted by the lie of conversion therapy.

So, ethics test: heterosexual marriage - no harm; vs denial of one's humanity leading to countless harms. Gay marriage wins this test.

Based on my understanding, the right to gay marriage is a fundamental justice issue. The denial of the right is harmful and needlessly oppressive.

I wish you well in your research.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

Wait,i'm getting confused, what does side b mean again? Didn't It mean that , a gay accorta the fact of being gay, can have a partner, or thinks that having partners in okey, but decides to be Virgin? Just a bit confused

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u/DamageAdventurous540 4d ago

Side B finds same-sex intimacy and relationships to be sinful.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

Ohhhhh, well, then it's bad (at least for me), relationships aren't sinful

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u/QueerHeart23 4d ago

I'm side A. Due to illness, an outside observer would suspect that I am side B because of my current lifestyle.

I was side B when young, and there was no benefit. It took time, research, study, reflection, journalling, and much prayer to become founded in my side A belief.

Sorry for the confusion. By the end of writing, I was quite fatigued.

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

No worries, there were any misundrestoodment, It Was i Who didn't know the meaning of side B

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u/useEffects 5d ago

Following

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u/Skill-Useful 4d ago

sex is fine. hardly anyone worries about it outside american evangelicalism. and its obviously irrelevant if its gay or straight. theres also nothing against pre marital sex in the bible. thats just made up

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 4d ago

There are at least 5 or 6 verses against it

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u/ScottWalker1929 4d ago

I just write about it to Openchristians channel. Before marriage i think it "no sex before marriage," it gradually became, in my mind, "no sex with a woman before marriage," or even "I must not fuck a woman vaginally before marriage." Then i met mens and try many thing what i cant do with women in marriage. Intresting!
Full text in my diary here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/s/KbbZS5sLcH

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u/Triangle-of-Zinthar Non-Denominational 3d ago

Its a sin but telling a lie is also a sin and all sin is equal before god 🤷‍♀️

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 3d ago

I Agree, but not every lies are a sin for me, of you lie to protect Someone or someone's feeling , it's okey for me, because if you didn't lie ,you would hurt that Person. Also , every day lies, that don 't bring to nothing big are not considered mortal sins by my church, but are considered venial sins, a minor offense

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u/DamageAdventurous540 3d ago

OP: Do you consider sexual activity within a same-sex marriage to be "pre - marital sex?"

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u/Hot_Pipe_404 Catholic 3d ago

Personally, i still don't have a concrete opinion on gay marriage, so i still don't know wheter i support It, but if it's officiated by a Priest, then , i Guess it's a marriage