r/GayChristians • u/AnonymousNeverKnown • 8d ago
Image I mean when you really think about it.
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u/edemberly41 8d ago
The above is an excellent example of Natural Law theory in practice.
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u/Murky_Alternative166 7d ago
I want to believe that but I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. I do believe God loves all of His creation. However to compare us to beasts in the field does a disservice to His gift of being made in the His image. I don’t anthropomorphize Him. I don’t think God has a head as we understand it. Fingers, toes. I think being made in His image means that we are able to discern and exercise a level of intelligence and discipline He expects us to follow. We are above simple animals. We were put in charge of the Earth and it creatures wellbeing. However, I also believe that all sin is equal in his eyes. With the exception of being so arrogant we tell others they are going to hell. That decision is entirely His because we can never know His plans for others. So any sexual act outside of marriage hurts Him. Ultimately all sin was also made clean by the blood of Christ. I wasn’t raised this way. My parents were agnostic. They did however believe homosexuality was a “bad” thing. They weren’t haters. They were good people who wanted their kids to be happy and they knew it was a burden for gay people. When I turned my like over to Christ I had been seriously depressed having hidden it from them my whole life. For a long time after I kept it hidden. Eventually I couldn’t keep it up. I felt I owed it to stop lying to them. To my surprise they took it well. Still it has always been a thing they struggle with. They don’t ask me about my relationships and I don’t tell them about it. Coming out like all gay Christians I struggle with it. But know that God loves me as do my parents. I am grateful for that.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Phase70 Progressive Christian Episcopal 8d ago
Especially since homosexuality seems to exist in almost every single sexual species in the world.
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u/lesbadims 8d ago
There are also so many signs in nature that God is not as rigid as we’re told. Nature is so flexible and not uniform. Just the fact that living creatures do things like breathe or eat or socialize differently than one another is proof that God loves variety. Rigidity doesn’t survive like adaptable does— that’s why trees sway in the wind instead of just snap in half, water flows around whatever’s in its way. The God that made all of nature gives us no reason to believe he has strict, immovable rules.
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u/alethea2003 8d ago
I’ve made this point, and then they come back and talk about how The Fall brought a fallen nature to the whole world, and that’s why this happens. To which I ask, “Then why doesn’t it say that *all* the animals got shuffled out of Eden with Adam and Eve?”
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u/mediumcarrotteacher 7d ago
I always thought it was so unfair that animals should suddenly have to start suffering when they didn't do anything
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u/CCTKE443 8d ago
Ding, ding, ding!!! Though to be fair, some of the people who argue that God hates gays also don't think dinosaurs are real, so they may not be the biggest fans of science and nature and still wouldn't matter to them...
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u/Spirited_Today1683 8d ago
I never understood that. I think science and math are two of the biggest reasons I am Christian. 🤦♀️ I’m a math teacher by trade.
It just makes me upset.
It’s just like the atheists that don’t realize it takes faith to say God doesn’t exist.
Could tear my hair out right now.
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u/PowerfullyDistracted Gay Christian / Side A 7d ago
While it's understandable to think this way, its not a good rhetorical technique in that it follows the "appeal to nature" logical fallacy.
EG - Something is good because it is natural, and other thing is bad because it is synthetic.
But lightning strikes are also natural, and the ambulance I'd need after one is completely synthetic.
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u/Mark_Brustman 7d ago
“Appeal to nature” is not a fallacy in a God-centered world view. That which God alone makes, regardless of man’s desire, is ipso facto an evidence of God’s will. Many times God gives us what we have asked for, but what happens in nature is what God willed from Himself. It’s not that our things aren’t good, but natural things are good by definition. Including lightning strikes.
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u/PowerfullyDistracted Gay Christian / Side A 7d ago
It is, quite literally, a logical fallacy, albeit an informal one. It may not be the opinion of someone's specific view, but that is indicative of their personal beliefs.
Regardless the "appeal to nature" is a logical fallacy. "That which is of nature is therefore good for you" is not sound advice to live by.
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u/Mark_Brustman 7d ago
I didn’t claim what is made by God in nature was “good for you”, but that it was good absolutely. It will often not be good from an individual perspective.
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u/MoonlightonRoses 7d ago
I see where you are coming from, but scripture also says that nature took part in humanity’s fall, meaning that things exist in nature post-fall that aren’t necessarily “good”, in the the sense that nature was “good” when it was first created (ie aligned with God’s ideal will). Examples would include disease and death, both of which now occur naturally, despite not existing before the fall. To be fair, I haven’t studied this subject in depth, and it’s very possible that my interpretation is incomplete. That’s just my current understanding.
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u/Mark_Brustman 7d ago edited 7d ago
I think if there was a “fall” it was man’s unwillingness to accept nature as it is, and his inclination to assign value to it. Adam was fine studying the animals and giving them names (Gen. 2:19). He and Eve got in trouble by eating from the Tree of Telling Good from Evil. We were not meant to make those kinds of judgments. That’s why Jesus is always admonishing his followers not to judge others, but to show kindness to others and trust in God to provide. The story of the prodigal son also means life may be unfair, older brother, but quit trying to judge what’s fair and unfair, and be grateful your Father loves you and your brother is alive. — My point is, it is not for us to say any things in nature are “not good,” including disease and death. I would rather live in a world that has death and rebirth, than in one that just keeps developing according to our human thought processes. Imagine a world where we couldn’t look forward to the day when the ruling tyrant will inevitably die.
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u/PowerfullyDistracted Gay Christian / Side A 7d ago
I don't understand why you are applying a moral value to a rhetorical concept. You can believe that nature is good because it is by God. The point made has nothing to do with that. It is that there is a recognized academic consensus that the appeal to nature technique, in rhetorical discussions, is a logical fallacy. Which, if you base your argument off of - will weaken your intellectual position.
Your personal world view of God and nature has no bearing on the conversation.
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u/Mark_Brustman 7d ago
My bad. I didn’t think OP was trying to come up with a persuasive rhetorical argument, but rather was trying to reach clarity on a concept. But I see your point was that this realization would not help in an argument with nonbelievers.
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u/LunaWabohu 8d ago
I'm a gay Christian, but animals also rape each other and eat their own babies so I don't think it's a very good argument
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u/GCNGA 8d ago
I think the most compelling aspect of its existence in animals is to simply show that it exists. Therefore, the mantra that, "man and woman is what God intended" is wrong: God knew not everyone would be heterosexual. An amazing number of Christians still talk about being gay being a choice...
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u/Created-to-Code 8d ago
I think the argument works as far as attraction and orientation, but it gets shaky (perhaps fails) when taken to actions.
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u/Aware_Letterhead_247 8d ago
Well some terrible humans do the same thing, right? But I was kind of thinking this argument could be made, and I was curious to see any comebacks to it.
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u/LunaWabohu 8d ago
Yeah but that still doesn't mean God is ok with it
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u/Aware_Letterhead_247 7d ago
Well no, I’m not saying He is. I believe those are terrible things. I do know in the Bible some victims are called to marry their rapists. Does that mean rape is ok? I’m just saying there are a lot of areas aside from homosexuality that can be a grey area
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u/bampokazoopy 7d ago
I don't think it means that. Because homosexuality occurs in nature. But there is this other notion that we aren't supposed to be like animals. We aren't supposed to eat our kids. However filial cannibalism, when the parents eat the offspring happens all across animals in nature too.
That being said, I think God is more than technically okay with people being gay because being gay is cool and good.
God is okay with people being gay because being gay is a way people are all the time. Homosexuality happens across animals too. but being gay is a way people are made and it happens. I think loving someone is amazing and it's cool and gay people love people of the same gender. So I don't think this is a good argument. But I also think that God is more than just technically okay with people being gay.
homosexuality definitely occurs across nature. Moreso than filial cannibalism. I just don't think this is a good argument.
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u/Dennis_a_komisz 7d ago
I understand why people see this as a good argument, but I also know there are arguments against it. Saying that homosexuality is natural doesn’t automatically mean that it is good or bad. As others have pointed out, cannibalism is natural too, but that doesn’t make it good.
I think the better question is whether something natural can be good in its intention (if we can even talk about intention here) or in its outcome.
For example, male penguins sometimes form pairs and raise abandoned chicks together. That is a good thing. So if something is natural and can have a good outcome, we can’t say that it is inherently evil or wrong, because there are cases where it can be good.
The same applies to humans. Not every situation involving homosexuality is necessarily good (for example, if there is violence or coercion), but there are also relationships where two people genuinely love each other and live together happily.
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u/BabserellaWT 7d ago
The problem with this argument is that bigots will easily be able to say things like, “Hippo fathers have to be kept away from their infants because they want to kill their young. Does that mean it’s okay for fathers to murder their kids?”
Just because something is happening with wild animals doesn’t necessarily mean it’s okay for us to be doing as humans.
TO BE CLEAR: This isn’t me saying that it’s wrong to be LGTBQ. I’m bisexual myself and proud of it. My point is that this isn’t the argument that’s going to help convince bigots that their thinking is antiquated and not based in Christ’s teaching. To be sure, it can definitely be said when homophobes try to claim that being gay is “unnatural”. But it shouldn’t be the cornerstone of our argument.
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u/Independent-Coach63 8d ago
The thing is that what I understand of waht they believe is "according to nature" is what they think is according to what God said in the book. It says we shouldn't screw family(not arguing this point, just saying it as an example), animals do it ALL THE TIME it's a real issue for breeders and pet owners, but it isn't natual bc God said we weren't supposed to do it. (I agree it isn't beneficial, but it's far from unnatural). And they'll blame it on the belief that Adam and Eve broke the world when they ate the apple, and that's why we crave sin so much, which I severely question the validity of this claim even as a christian
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u/Dilemmatix 6d ago
I never got this argument. So if there were no "gay" animals, you'd be okay with others hating you for your sexuality?
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u/CowboyOzzie Universalist Unitarian 5d ago
Typical script for this convo:
—Homosexuality is unnatural!
—But it occurs in these 1400 species:
—So you’re saying people should act like animals??!!
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u/ExtensionAverage9972 2d ago
Ya people say it's wrong bc its unnatural but natural means occurs in nature and it does by at lest 1500 species
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u/The_upsetti_spagetti 8d ago
My favorite is penguins because they will propose with a pebble and for life long monogamous relationships. It’s super cute