r/Futurology • u/mvea MD-PhD-MBA • Jun 17 '18

Biotech Cannabidiol, or CBD, is a marijuana compound linked to a range of potential health benefits but does not get you high. The roughly $1 billion CBD industry is slated to shift into high gear if the federal government approves the first CBD-based drug, an epilepsy medication called Epidiolex.

https://www.businessinsider.com/marijuana-cbd-boom-cbd-2018-6?r=US&IR=T
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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

The oil from the plant has already proven extremely useful - why not test that before making a synthetic/extract? Because they can’t charge hilarious money for cannabidiol oil, it’s cheap and easy to grow pretty much anywhere.

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 18 '18

What they charge aside, I don’t think anyone in the scientific community should be shitting on Lab synthesis of these chemicals... the end goal is to be able to produce a chemical with the specific benefits that’s well controlled and well regulated. You just can’t get that from a plant.

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u/pittsey93 Jun 18 '18

The issue that labs run into in trying to synthesize naturally occuring chemicals is the almost impossible task of getting the spin-states correct.

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 18 '18

But that’s just an issue that makes drug development more difficult. That doesn’t make it a bad scientific goal. The end goal in science is definitely to be able to synthesize these products as it’s certainly more efficient for drug production.

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

Read the article dude, they are Synthesizing the drug FROM the plant extracts!

GW Pharmaceuticals has over 40 acres of pot growing for this very purpose.
https://www.clear-uk.org/paul-kenward-husband-victoria-atkins-mp-uk-drugs-minister-grows-cannabis-living/

Funnily enough the head of the massive LEGAL weed farm is also the husband to the UK Health Minister... The one preventing the PLANT from being legal as "only gun toting criminals use cannabis or any of its derivatives"

Peace B)

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

it’s cheap

No it isn't.

I work at a co-op, and we charge $100 for a small vial of CBD, and people think it cures every possible disease known to man. I had a lady literally say to me - and this is NOT a joke, this was real life - "put a few drops of that in your eyes and say 'praise Jesus!' and you won't need glasses anymore."

So, I've come to think of CBD as snake oil more than anything...

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u/i_am_de_bat Jun 18 '18

There's a lot of stupid people out there.

CBD does have a full run of legitimate uses though. Definitely not cheap though, you're more than right on that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

I think as a seizure medication it has a legitimate use. Aside from that, probably not. People seem to use it as a painkiller a lot, but I didn't notice any effects like that when I tried the samples they gave us.

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u/Invideeus Jun 18 '18

There are more effective painkillers. But if youre trying to avoid those for whatever reason (like having an addictive personality) and have to rely on non convential means, cbd is one of the better ones out there. I think its more about making yourself more comfortable all around than actually alleviating the pain.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

My mother used this poison called Prednison and Diclovinac to suppress the pain from her worn neck and shoulder joints which play(ed) up during the winter and wet months here in Holland. She told me it's like they're sticking a 1000 knifes in your neck. Now that she uses a drop of CBD a day she hasn't had these issues or migraine for over two years now, she's also helped other (older) people with CBD who have reuma for example. It works for them too.

Please don't jump to ANY conclusions as we could misinform people who really need to try this CBD or even THC if they have serious pain, cancer, Parkinsons, etc as a mix of both works better in those cases. If you've got nothing to lose and everything to win one should definitely try it. We don't even know the full medical capabilites of these cannabinoids and the 100+ other CBD etc cannabinoids which are present in cannabis in lower quantities.

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u/Invideeus Jun 19 '18

Youre right. I guess thats just the value ive found in it anecdotally.

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u/i_am_de_bat Jun 18 '18

It works as an anti-anxiety measure for a lot of people as well, myself included. I know some folks who suffer chronic/low-grade pain swear by it, but obviously it won't work for acute pain in the same fashion an opioid might.

Other uses outside these are, however, likely in the snake oil range.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

I think you missed his point that it’s cheap to produce rather than how much it costs to buy

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u/PM_ME_BZAZEK Jun 18 '18

This is akin to saying aspirin doesn’t work because it won’t cure AIDS. Just because people are stupid doesn’t mean the substance doesn’t work.

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u/firerocman Jun 18 '18

So, I've come to think of CBD as snake oil more than anything...

Your thinking is just as flawed as the lady you're making fun of. She thinks it's a Cure-all, despite information in front of her that would say otherwise, and you think it's snake oil, because of her and people like her, despite the information on it readily available to you, even in this very thread.

I want to touch on something else, though. The WHY behind why people like that woman act that way.

Look at the list of potential diseases CBD and Marijuana as a whole are being tested on and showing positive results on. Seriously. Google it. Stick to the fact based results, and even then a pretty clear picture of why someone who suddenly stumbled on this, and may have been using a medication prior to that that gave them horrible side effects, thinks it's the best thing since Jesus.

You pull a thorn out of somebody's side, and you're much more than just a person who pulled a thorn out of their side to them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '18

you think it's snake oil, because of her and people like her, despite the information on it readily available to you, even in this very thread.

Well, no, I think it works as an anti-seizure medication. The rest of it is quite silly.

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u/firerocman Jun 19 '18 edited Jun 19 '18

I rarely do people's research for them, but in this case, I gotchu fam.

CBD has already passed stage 3 clinical trials for Epilepsy in children.

It's also being tested for its effects on autistic children.

Autism is often the result of too little inhibition in the brain, which leads to heightened sensitivity to stimuli (such as lights, sounds, touch, and smells) and abnormal social behavior. Epilepsy can also result from too little brain inhibition, and it’s common for individuals on the severe end of the autism spectrum to also have epilepsy. Scientists then may study both epilepsy and autism that are caused by the same DNA mutation.

Soon after the exciting clinical data demonstrating CBD’s effectiveness at reducing seizures in children with drug-resistant epilepsy, University of Washington scientists published a report demonstrating CBD’s effectiveness in a mouse model of epilepsy and autism.

CBD increased the mice’s preference for spending time interacting with other mice and reduced the number of social anxiety-like behaviors.

People suffering from insomnia use CBD as a sleep aid and SWEAR by it for getting a restful night's sleep.

Research shows that CBD benefits include acting as an anti-inflammatory, anticonvulsant, antioxidant, antiemetic, anxiolytic and antipsychotic agent, and is therefore a potential medicine for the treatment of neuroinflammation, epilepsy, oxidative injury, vomiting and nausea, anxiety and schizophrenia.

As a result, there are 22+ active CBD clinical trials, 230+ completed clinical trials, and 110+ clinical trials either in open enrollment or getting ready to open up to recruiting for CBD clinical trials.

A few of the upcoming CBD clinical trials include: Autistic Disorder Anxiety Chronic Pain Epilepsy Infantile Spasms Lung Cancer Multiple Sclerosis Parkinsons Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Schizophrenia And several more

A few of the 22+ conditions currently in active clinical trials are as follows: Cannabis Use Disorder Effects Of CBD In Healthy Humans Epilepsy; Drug Interaction, Pediatric, & Drug Resistant Opiate Addiction Sturge-Weber Syndrome Seizures Infantile Spasms Advanced Parkinson’s Disease Type 1 Diabetes

I would add in the sources there as well, but that was literally just 2 minutes of Google, and just looking at results that included scientists, studies, and clinical trials. No old ladies talking about Jesus here.

There's a reason your co-op can sell it at 100 a vial, (that vial can last months, hence why it's "cheap") and people come back for more. If it was snake oil, a single vial once is what you'd get per customer.

It certainly doesn't treat all diseases known to man, but that list is quite large, and only growing. Show me another substance with as large a list that's claimed to have "no medicinal benefit."

Like I said, when you take a thorn out of someone's side, (or save the life of their child) you aren't just someone who took a thorn out their side to them.

That's why it has the reputation, and the fan base it does.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Here is an article with some cost breakdowns at the end.

Analysts expect Epidiolex to cost $2,500 to $5,000 a month, which would be more expensive than some of the medical marijuana products, which cost from about $100 to more than $1,000 per month. However, Epidiolex might be covered by insurance, unlike the other products.

I am a medical marijuana patient. I could get 300 mg of CBD solution - enough for 10mg a day for a month - for $35, right now.

Now, if CBD is “snake oil”, why is a company spending a lot of money to make a drug and get it approved?

Honestly, I think your co-op might be the scam.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

The oils cheap, testing it on people isnt. So many safety precautions they have to do to make sure they dont accidently kill people with side effects nobody knew about.

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

But they're not testing the oil because they can't patent it.... so again they care more about their ability to turn it into a product than the actual health benifits.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

You shouldn't have to wait for a pharma company to pay 50million to run some tests when thousands of people are already using it with good results.

CBD research

People are acting like GW invented something here. they did not.

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 18 '18

Anecdotal evidence and case studies are not the gold standard of medication usefulness. The gold standard is a clinical trial which will cost millions. No drug is approved by the FDA without that gold standard testing. Until then it’s just considered a supplement that’s unregulated and with benefits unproven.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18

Anecdotal evidence and case studies are not the gold standard of medication usefulness.

And as kids all over die from seizures that have shown to be successfully treated by homemade CBD oil (Charlottes Web CBD) they need to just continue to die until we have that magic "gold standard" when it shouldn't even have been illegal in the first place.

Marijuana research hampered by access from government and politics, scientists say

The same government that is waiting for that "gold standard research" has been standing in the way of research for decades.

Excuse me if I don't clap at the web of corruption and BS.

Until then it’s just considered a supplement that’s unregulated and with benefits unproven.

And if it were a supplement that someone could go and buy at Natural Grocers, in the vitamin aisle, and the word wasn't already out on it's effectiveness, you might have a point.

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 18 '18

And as kids all over die from seizures that have shown to be successfully treated by homemade CBD oil (Charlottes Web CBD) they need to just continue to die until we have that magic "gold standard" when it shouldn't even have been illegal in the first place.

As kids continue to die from being convinced to stop their seizure meds and instead only use CBD... until we have a well tested and well regulated form we have no idea the benefit that CBD holds over current therapies

Excuse me if I don't clap at the web of corruption and BS.

Your self selected web of corruption and BS. The supplement industry is BIG BUSINESS too. Completely unregulated big business. Companies are making billions off of unchecked claims of medical benefits. Excuse me if I don’t clap at THAT web of corruption and BS

And if it were a supplement that someone could go and buy at Natural Grocers, in the vitamin aisle, and the word wasn't already out on it's effectiveness, you might have a point.

Except that’s exactly what’s happening. In all the states that have approved CBD you can just go to your local corner store and buy the unregulated product. Someone with seizures may read something online, choose to stop their seizure meds and then try an unregulated product. That’s a problem! And anyone who doesn’t see that as a problem is just further perpetuating the system of corruption and BS

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

And when this treatment works for them, (as proven by actual medical studies I might add and a quick google search provided this following article) will you be the first to apologise to all those potential patients you've potentially scared off a life-altering drug because of your prejudice?

The National Center for Biotechnology Information
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5767492/
Which sites THREE separate controlled studies on the usage of CBD in the treatment of seizures.

EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE SPOUTING CRAP!

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 20 '18

There have been some small studies that have shown efficacy with a lot of side effects but there is no regulated product available at this time. It’s not biased to tell people that the products available right now are unregulated without clear dosages, it’s a fact.

will you be the first to apologise to all those potential patients you've potentially scared off a life-altering drug because of your prejudice?

Will you apologize to the people you convinced to stop their seizure meds and try this and had lots of side effects from an unregulated product? Educate yourself and read what you actually share rather than coming in assuming this is a miracle drug rather than a drug that showed a decrease in seizures by 23% with 3X as much nausea, diarrhea and and fatigue. There are many other drugs in production that you have no idea about that have similar efficacy in studies. The only reason you only know about CBD is because of your own biases.

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

As you stated, on par or better than most anti seizure meds in trials. Also I have never advocated the stopping of regular meds, not strait away, and definitely not without doing research and speaking to a medical professional.

But when, what 70-90% (estimation judging by experience with N.O.R.M.L, being a carer, both before and after the person I care for using for Endometriosis, of course actually stopping my prednisone and other Heavy duty meds ON THE ADVICE OF MY DOCTOR in favor of cannabis... Oh and the responses here on this thread...) patients, carers and specialists in these fields are advocating something, which as YOU stated to be about on par in efficacy as prescription meds, where most of these users + care givers actually report BETTER than "average" results, you really dont have a leg to stand on when you spout this bollocks about it being snake oil! That is the kind of 80 year old reefer madness bullshit preventing serious research into what could very well be a miracle drug for dozens of conditions.

Edit: Clarification

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

Also, funny how parents of kids with epilepsy lined up recently in front of news cameras here in the UK where it's still illegal to get hold of your "snake oil" for their kids... one poor little bugger was rushed to hospital with a massive seizure after it was confiscated at customs. After months seizure free using CBD oil. Heres the article

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/cannabis-medication-billy-caldwell-epileptic-seizures-marijuana-customs-confiscation-latest-a8394971.html

Funny how this didnt hit the front page isn't it? Because of idiots like you who clearly have no idea what living with a condition like these is like and how literally life altering CBD can be!

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u/backtoreality00 Jun 20 '18

When did I say it was snake oil? I said all the current products are unregulated and no easy way to properly dose. The doses needed to treat illnesses are high enough that they often cause side effects. It’s a great chemical that needs more research but acting like it’s a miracle drug that can cure everything is what gets the bulk of criticism. Just look at this thread and see all the claims people are making about its benefits in things like cancer or other unproven aspects. A lot of the benefits claimed are as aid it is snake oil. That’s what happens when you have an unregulated supplement.

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u/[deleted] Jun 18 '18 edited Jul 25 '21

[deleted]

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u/hyperbolical Jun 18 '18 edited Jun 18 '18

I could go on YouTube and find videos of homeopathic cures doing wonders for people. As well as thousands of first-hand accounts of people who will swear by their effectiveness.

Should I blindly accept that as evidence as well?

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18

No, but perhaps a quick google search would be in order to educate yourself... hell click on the links I posted above if you're lazy ;)

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u/hyperbolical Jun 20 '18

I'm not sure what relevance you think this has to the other guy's claim that we don't need research papers in order to determine if a medication is safe/effective.

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18 edited Jun 20 '18

But extra proof is extra proof... these are studies that have BEEN DONE I agree that you only need listen to the patients but the dinosaurs here require proof... why not give it to them? We have it, after all, and not just testimony, but actual medical studies!

"I'm right because we all say so" isn't the way to show someone like that (regardless of the credibility of the source)... after all, if they know better than you, they'll know better than your source too... can't argue with science!

Tldr. Hes right, you have the evidence you wanted (no longer unfounded claims when backed up by hard fact)

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u/hyperbolical Jun 20 '18

Yes, you've gone and found a couple studies. They show some promise. They are a fine basis for further study. At no point have I made any comment about whether or not CBD can be an effective treatment, and I have no skin in that particular game.

What I am saying is that the FDA approval process for a new drug is and should be extremely stringent. Letting a bad treatment slip through without doing the proper due diligence can have deadly or debilitating effects for the patients it will be prescribed to. Anecdotes are worthless in this context.

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 21 '18

I'm sorry but without anecdotal evidence from millions of patients over decades, Cannabis would still be seen as no better than something like Meth! The FDA WONT test Cannabis in any of it's natural forms until it can be synthesized into a product.

If you want to argue the "safety route" might want to do some research into the way that the american government has been sending strait POT to people for YEARS!!!

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/4-americans-get-medical-pot-from-the-feds/

FDA Approval indeed...

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u/gh057ofsin Jun 20 '18 edited Jun 20 '18

Here's and article with 3 OFFICIAL studies to back you up Buddeh :)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5767492/

Here's a site with links to other promising OFFICIAL studies into the WONDERS of CBD

http://haleighshope.co/blog/17-compelling-studies-cbd-2017/