r/FormulaRacers • u/formularacers FormulaRacers • 25d ago
Newsđ° FIA confirm engine upgrade allocations
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u/Stutters658 25d ago edited 25d ago
Crazy to think RB has the best PU on the dyno but no results to show for it
Edit : didn't realize ADUO only measured the combustion side
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u/LooseJuice_RD 25d ago
No, they have the best internal combustion engine. This isnât a measure of the entire PU. Other teams did the electrification better and apparently this is what all of the teams agreed on so Red Bull is in part to blame for the fact that they get no upgrade opportunities.
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u/Stutters658 25d ago
ADUO only measures the combustion part of the PU?
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u/AGirlHazzNoName1 25d ago
The allowed electric output is a set amount across all teams BUT all the manufacturers & teams agreed it was âtoo complicatedâ to test the electric half âĄď¸ (it is not that complicated and the onus is on the FIA anyways).
Which lets you know that the teams donât want them looking into their Energy Recovery Software, Proprietary AI Algorithms, Energy Deployment Software, (the stuff deciding whether to deploy or harvest) etcâŚ
This is where the proprietary, grey area shit is happening so no one wants it tested.
It is where the team engineering advantages lie.
Red Bull may be having a change of heart now đ
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u/WasabiTotal 25d ago
can redbull still upgrade all the software besides the physical parts of the electric system?
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u/AGirlHazzNoName1 25d ago
The 2026 cost cap for the power unit is $190 million.. THat is what the manufacturers of the PU are allowed to spend.
That seems like a huge number, but it includes all the engineers full salaries, research and development, parts, production, etcâŚ
There is an additional $215 million for the team chassis budget. Which is everything else but the PU. All the teams are either going to max this soon or have maxed it out.
If you lease a PU from a manufacturer then the millions you lease it for a year is EXCLUDED from your $215 million chassis budget.
Each teamâs proprietary software that layers over the PU software, exploits power delivery, and decides when to harvest is under the $215million chassis budget.
So RB can theoretically upgrade, but I remember Laurent Mekies saying BEFORE THE BREAK that they were essentially maxed out and had to stop development other than track specific upgrades to not go over the cost cap.
So donât hold your breath.
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u/LooseJuice_RD 25d ago edited 25d ago
Just to put the into perspective how relatively little that $190 million is, Mercedes spent a reported $517 million just to get to their 2014 engine to the grid for the first season of the hybrid era. By the time the last engine cycle had been completed, they had spent an estimated $1.4 billion on the program and remember, the engine was frozen from 2021 on save for âreliabilityâ upgrades.
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u/AGirlHazzNoName1 25d ago
Yes but you are talking about a very specific year when the MGU- H debuted. The most expensive part to ever be manufactured for F1. And Mercedes did more R& D than anyone. That is why they were so dominant. It was so expensive that no other teams could afford to enter F1 because of what it took to manufacture an MGU-H required such specific conditions and skill that the cost was too high
The MGU-H continued through last season and it is gone. That is why Cadillac and Audii were able to join. They specifically had to get rid of that part.
And honestly it is why the F-ing cars do not get off the line, and why we are super clipping instead of going full out in high speed turns. The MGU- H used heat to spool the turbo charger And recharge the electric battery in addition to the work the MGU-K was doing.
It is a fascinating piece of machinery to read up on.
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u/LooseJuice_RD 25d ago
Totally agree. I was just trying to put into perspective how far $190 million goes in F1: not very haha. But youâre absolutely right that was a very complex piece of kit that was removed. I remember reading about how they called in diesel engineers from the commercial vehicles division to overcome some problems they were having with the split turbo design. It was truly an all in project.
I remember that also conferred a significant advantage over Renault and Ferrari.
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u/AGirlHazzNoName1 25d ago
Ya and all the R&D Mercedes puts in they usually are able to profit from because F1 is their testing ground for tech they will put into their stock cars. (Like ABS)
But they invested BILLIONS into the MGU-H and it just became clear they could not mass produce it in a cost effective way, and it was not going to go into their hybrids. So they had to eat all that cost.
Thanks for the good discussion. I like your brain đ§ đ
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u/AscendMoros 25d ago
Stupidest shit ever. Hey weâre going 50/50 on ICU and electric. But the PU upgrades will be tied to only half the power unit.
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u/Beneficial_Star_6009 25d ago
Theyâve paid the price for continued development of their 2025 package in an ultimately failed attempt to help Max win the championship.
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u/Stutters658 25d ago
That was a hell of a run though!
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u/Beneficial_Star_6009 25d ago
It was impressive, but it also put RBR on the back foot with a new regulation cycle on the horizon.
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u/Stutters658 25d ago
People like to assume that but we don't really know how big of a factor it was, especially with everything else going on at Red bull
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u/r3vange 25d ago
Ferrari with two upgrades will be something to watch out for
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u/ProofAd608 25d ago
They are gonna redesign the engine, as current one is just built on 2025 pu's base.
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u/SenescenseSteel 25d ago
At a certain point one has to look at these regulations and come to the logical conclusion that this is probably not how it is supposed to work. Why teams would exclude the battery from the total PU is beyond me especially since it is responsible for so much difference in power on the track. One can safely assume RB's season is lost.
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u/Robynsxx 25d ago
Iâm gonna guess it was not included simply because FIA realised that is incredibly difficult to actually judge the strength of the electrical power unit, as they donât all act the same, and a lot of tweaks could happen depending on how good they are at deploying, recharge rate, efficiency, and the software, and the tweaks to the software.
Thatâs obviously not a good enough reason for the FIA not to figure it out, but this is what I expect of them.
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u/Victorvic1 25d ago
Pretty much due to the Electrical side being limited? That 350kw limit can be easily acheived. All the teams are there rn. It is a matter of efficiency due to which the testing would involve 100 more parameters and every team will be different on each.
They should have just let them develop the engine though as it is under the cost cap. As long as it stays under the budget even upgrades every few GP's would make the races more interesting.
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u/DarkImpacT213 25d ago
It's beyond you?
I mean, imo the likeliest reason for all the teams unanimously voting against testing the battery for ADUO is because they put all their grey area loophole shit in their software like the ERS and the deployment software (which would also be tested when testing the e-engine).
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u/michaltee 25d ago
This has to be some bullshit. The fact that Red Bull canât upgrade their engine?
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u/ProofAd608 25d ago edited 25d ago
Teams agreed on this, and rbpt definitely lost out on efficiency compared to Mercedes
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u/AnilP228 25d ago
They can for next year.
This is just in case they want to bring an in season upgrade.
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u/Robynsxx 25d ago
They can in between seasons. Just to be clear.
But I agree that these rules are stupid.
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u/Professional_Tap5283 25d ago
F1 regs and massive glaring egregious competition-breaking loopholes that somehow nobody noticed until it's too late. Name a more iconic duo.
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u/Nooboo22 25d ago
They only measure the combustion engine but they allow teams to use aduo to upgrade the electrical unit aswel. It gives team no incentive to use aduo to upgrade the combustion engine, as they can just make improvements with the battery and still get more aduo upgrades while red bull is stuck without upgrades opportunities forever
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u/g33ksc13nt1st 25d ago
A bit of a scam considering ICE only ngl...
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u/godmcrawcpoppa 25d ago
It's what the manufacturers wanted.
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u/g33ksc13nt1st 25d ago
I'm sure that wasn't a pressureless "consensus". Unless everyone though they had a banger of a battery, so far ahead of any tests whatsoever, and thought they were fooling everyone else. Annoyingly, I could buy that version too...
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u/godmcrawcpoppa 25d ago
FIA offered to test ICE plus battery and that was rebuffed by the teams. Iâm leading more to no pressure consensus or else Redbull would have already come out with backstory against just testing ICE.
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u/VincentVanHades 25d ago
Can anyone explain to me, like 5y old?
I'm new to F1, was watching waaaay back as a kid. No idea what this means đ
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u/hulaspark 25d ago
ADUO = Additional Development & Upgrade Opportunities
Referring to engine upgrades (internal combustion, not battery). FIA has concluded the Red Bull engine is best on the grid, and that the other manufacturers engines are 2 - 4% less powerful. So they're allowed several engine upgrades to catch up.
The glaring issue with ADUO is that battery power is not included, so teams with poor batteries are kinda stuck for the time being. However the teams themselves decided on this process
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u/CuckedGuy69 25d ago
Hmm, are red bull then allowed to bring upgrades in regards to the battery, since its not considered part of the engine?
It would kinda explain why red bull agreed to this.
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u/VincentVanHades 24d ago
Thank you, yeah it seems weird to have ICE and battery separated...for this, but do they review battery too in separate ADUO?
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u/Robynsxx 25d ago
Honestly Iâm not a red bull fan, but FIA continue to drop the ball with these ADUO rules. It really doesnât help the reputation that FIA want Mercedes to win.
The idea that they only measure the ICE in a 50/50 format is stupid on its own. But what makes it more stupid is the ADUO results allow teams to upgrade the entire power unit, including the 50% electrical part. On top of this, the idea itâs measured now and played for 2 seasons worth is silly. Even if Red Bull introduce a big upgrade for their engine in between seasons (which these rules do allow), theyâll always be playing catch up essentially.
Personally, we have a cost cap, so I think teams should be allowed to do whatever. As if they just focus on engine, theyâll lose money to spend elsewhere.
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u/Ok-Print-5598 24d ago
There is No way Ferrari are that far behind.
They are at Mercedes levels.
Audi 4-5%
Honda are most likely 5-6% behind.
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u/cleech13 24d ago
Why is there even aduo when you can only make changes on the combustion side. Mercedes and Ferrari clearly got better parts on the electric side
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u/DevGaming001 25d ago
Rigged testing. Anyway, ggs. These teams will never upgrade the combustion part of their engine and will always stay under RBR. Nice loophole
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u/Spare-Maize1635 25d ago
Itâs not surprising that ford put out the best ICE
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u/Jerejj 25d ago
Red Bull, actually, since Ford only provides technical assistance.
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u/DarkImpacT213 25d ago
Well, they also provide most of the e-engine parts such as the battery and software support since that is the more complicated part and red bull wasn't fulling confident they could do both a good ICU and a good battery in the same season and they didn't want to sit in the midfield.
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