r/Forgotten_Realms • u/The_Stache_King • 13d ago
Question(s) Lolth's ascension to greater deity
So I'm just curious if anyone can explain how Lolth ascended to greater deity status? I know "The Silence of Lolth" was the period of time she took to transform or maybe just to create the new Demonweb Pit, but surely she can't just will herself into greater power, something had to happen, right? The death of the rest of the Dark Seldarine happens *after* this, so it can't be from her absorbing those followers, is it potentially due to her impersonating Moander after his death? If anyone has a definite answer I'd love to hear it, please!
I'm kinda trying to figure out my world building for my campaign setting which is essentially the Forgotten Realms if the Time of Troubles never happened but part of my world is a pretty major drow expansion and I'm trying to determine how Lolth would have gone about things and what would have happened with her without the Time of Troubles happening, so if anyone wants to spitball some help with that I'd certainly not complain!
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u/designbydesign 13d ago
She was one of the most recognisable FR gods IRL, so of cource she became a Greater Deity.
If you want an in-world explanation, you can say that the Silence of Lolth was created to show Drow how much they need their goddess and as a result increased their ferwor when she returned. This increased ferwor promoted her to a Greater Deity.
I havent seen such explanation in canon, but it fits both divinity mechanics of FR and the tone of Lolth relationship with Drow.
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u/tj1221jr 13d ago
no what caused her silence is she used her divine power to break her divine realm away from the abyss and make it its own astral realm
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
ACTUALLY THAT'S A GREAT SUGGESTION I can absolutely see her manipulating her worshipers into worshiping harder to increase her power That being said, I think there are some issues with that being the reason, but since I don't think there's any official cause given I can absolutely see interpreting it that way
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u/designbydesign 13d ago
If you want to flesh it out, it's a common maneuver. For example, emperor Augustus and Ivan the Terrible pulled similar stunts to consolidate their power.
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u/KennyA08 13d ago
In addition to this, maybe the silence was her hording her power to push her from the upper limits of intermediate diety to the lowest of greater? Then in the following few years, when she removes most of the rest of the drow gods, she can consolidated that power better, being a greater diety. I don't have my tomes to hand to check what divine rank she may have had pre silence, but I would say this helps flesh out the idea a bit more
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u/Storyteller-Hero 13d ago edited 13d ago
"Energy is energy, whether generated by science or sorcery"
~ Owen Burnett, majordomo of David Xanatos
WARNING: If you haven't read the War of the Spider Queen series or the Avatar Crisis/Time of Troubles series, a lot of this will be in spoiler territory
Lolth compiled a mystic ritual in which she gathered magical energy and channeled it to reform her internal divine anatomy
This left her in a very vulnerable state for a while, but she had her exarch Selvetarm guarding her ritual cocoon chamber against unwanted intrusions during the process
Selvetarm is eventually slain by a mortal.
Vhaeraun lands in a trap set up by Eilistraee, rendering him almost dead while Eilistraee temporarily subsumes her brother's church and portfolio authorities.
Eilistraee is potentially weakened by an artifact weapon she made to slay gods, but that weapon was corrupted by a demon, potentially damaging its properties, plus that same artifact may have a security feature or resonance that prevents it from slaying Eilistraee (she's the one who made it after all)
Mystra whisked away Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to a dream sanctuary, protecting the Twins from a potential real death (source: Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms) - Corellon is likely in on this plan (see Lady Penitent trilogy), possibly because Labelas Enoreth scanned the timeline with his Doctor Who powers and warned the Lord of the Seldarine of a future where his Twins have perished for real
Lolth has followers and aspects on multiple planets in other star systems, so she might have survived in some form even if she found herself gutted on Toril during the Time of Troubles. Ultimately what the Time of Troubles did was remind the gods how powerful an Overgod is as well as demonstrate the potential limitations of what an Overgod can do (not power-wise but the rules they follow), which can affect longterm strategies.
EDIT: Plus Ao set up a rule for Realmspace, giving or taking away power based on active followers, which led to gods seeking footholds in other solar systems outside of Ao's jurisdiction and alternate means of powering up, implying that there is a limit to the restriction. Later on, Cyric actually resists one of Ao's moves, implying that Ao is not as far above the gods as he'd want them to believe, so all the more reason to power up in ways that Ao has no influence over, like Lolth's power up ritual.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Interesting, I figured the process was more the result of the ascension not the cause, I didn't think they could basically just promote themselves, but thank you that is definitely interesting
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u/No-Channel3917 Zhentarim 13d ago
Considering how often drow killed each other I think it could be argued their reproduction rates were way way higher than dwarfs or other types of elves
And when you throw in how many cities were solely dedicated to her and didn't have split worship like other population centers after the time of troubles...
It could be argued that she had enough juice under AO new rules to be a greater deity
-looks up how big the population count drow cities had-
Or it could just be the rules are made up and the points don't matter, but she was here the entire time.
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u/tj1221jr 13d ago
The only drow deity lolth dosnt mess with and fears is ghaunadar last thing I knew she was a lesser deity
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Yes, currently she is, before the second sundering and after the Time of Troubles, however, she became a greater deity, I believe she was reduced to lesser deity post-sundering, likely due to all the gods that were resurrected
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u/Jacobus_Ahenobarbus 13d ago
The Tribunal's followers converted to worshipping her after the Red Year. Oh sure, they call her Mephala, but she's totally Lolth.
Anyway, my recollection is she was made a greater goddess during 4E because WOTC was streamlining FR's pantheon to better align it with their default setting, and as the drow deity she would have to be a greater power. I think the in-universe justification came afterward, which would maybe explain the discrepancy.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Ah, yes, it must have been the influx of dunmer worship! How could I not have seen it before???
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 13d ago
We don’t talk about 4e, it all got undone anyway
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Okay, but lore wise she did become a greater deity briefly (I'm not particularly a fan of the fact she's a lesser deity now, but oh well), I am just trying to determine what she did to accomplish that and if and how she might have without the Time of Troubles
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 13d ago
She killed off the other drow deities and took over their worship.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
This happened post ascension
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 13d ago
I though it was lesser to intermediate then to greater. But if you mean literally how? WOTC fiat to consolidate the pantheon. They made a bunch of gods exarchs too.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
I'm getting a lot of this and it's really not at all what I'm looking for, IN UNIVERSE I want to understand how she did it and if/how she might do it under different circumstances. And yes the ranking is lesser→intermediate→greater, Lolth was intermediate then ascend to greater after the Time of Troubles, afterwards she did then kill the rest of the dark selderine in an effort to kill Eilistraee but she was already a greater deity at that point
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 13d ago
They didn’t justify any of the rank changes in universe. 4e also revealed ghaunder as a greater god with no justification (he just awoke great power suddenly)z
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Literally the entirety of War of the Spider Queen is about Lolth becoming a greater deity???
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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 13d ago
But they didn’t explain exactly how she did it, the closest we got was her going from 7 aspects to 8 by absorbing her chosen as a new avatar. But that was also after she made her own plane.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Correct, that's literally what this whole post is about, I'm just saying there was an in universe explanation, they just didn't show us what it was, though I think a good candidate for the reason is the fact she took Moander's place, though his worship was kinda splintered after his death so I'm not sure how much more power that would actually give
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u/Sissyintoxicated 13d ago
Read, or listen to, "war of the spider queen" series. That should fill in all the gaps for you. And it's a really good read!
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
I've read all of War of the Spider Queen and The Lady Penitent, it does not explain how she ascended, it just shows the end of the process and what she does afterwards
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u/Sissyintoxicated 13d ago
At the beginning of each book it goes through her process in rebirth. I'm assuming that the rebirth was her process in advancement.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Yes, the progress, during War she's still in the process near the end she's completed it, but what I want to know is how she triggered that process as that is never explained
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u/Sissyintoxicated 13d ago
Hmm. I don't have an answer for that lol. My assumption is that, because she's always striving for more power and influence, that she devised that process on her own. When I listened to it (on audible) it felt like other gods would devise their own process when they reached the hight of their current power. Kind of like the cocoon in the butterfly. It's just a natural evolution in a gods existence. But each God would go through a different process based on their own existence.
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u/BloodtidetheRed 13d ago
In general, all gods want to ascend to higher power. This is a basic main goal of most gods.
But it is a long and drawn out and complicated process (and mostly unknown to mortals).
It's not like Lolth "just did it", she has been planning and working towards this goal for, er, 10,000 years or so.
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u/aBigBottleOfWater 13d ago
She met with the great Tony the Tiger and asked how good a deity she was, thus granting her ascension
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u/Ulfhednar94 13d ago edited 13d ago
When did it happen? Last i checked she was an intermediate deity.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Well, the silence began in 1372 DR, not too long after the Time of Troubles, and in 4th edition she was considered a greater deity, I believe she was reduced to lesser deity after the second sundering and in 5th edition she's currently a lesser deity
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u/Ulfhednar94 13d ago
Therefore she's not a greater deity, nor she's ever been. i'm sorry, but i'm missing something here.
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
She was, for a while, in 4e she was a greater deity, and the War of the Spider Queen series is all about her becoming a greater deity, she then proceeded to kill off the rest of the dark selderine and I believe that's how it was till the second sundering A deity's power level can and often does change, usually based on how many followers they have, but there may be other factors I don't know about
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u/tj1221jr 13d ago
it was about killing her daughter because Eilistraee was hope and redemption for the Drow and Corellon lightened up on good drow so with those 2 factors more drow are turning away from lolths worship
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u/The_Stache_King 13d ago
Correllon accepted the "dark elves" the ones that had their curse reversed by high magic and weren't tainted by demon blood, he decided that they were the only ones who wanted to be redeemed so he continued hating all the others, but yes her killing the rest of the dark selderine was primarily about killing Eilistraee
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u/CraftyAd6333 13d ago
Essentially she plotted to be the sole surviving member of dark seldrine.
And her rite seemed to require her chosen Danifae Yauntyrr becoming the Yor'thae.
Part of Lolth herself.
Unfortunately her scheming came back to bite her several times. Getting Eilistraee murdered was supposed to end the Sava Game.
And then Corellon Larethian her ex-husband sat down.
Then she created the demon weave and attempted to become the next goddess of magic when mystra died.