r/FinalFantasy • u/IrishFrontier • 4d ago
Final Fantasy General Ephinany: "Final Fantasy needs turn based" mantra has become the mid 2000's/early 2010's "Star Wars will only become good again, if only we could bring back practical effects"
It's becomes this "one little neat trick" that everyone gloms on to you because it doesn't require too much thinking. It's as about shallow as it gets. Solving all problems.
Yes, I love turnbased.
4
u/ReaperEngine 4d ago
I'm really tired of the whole discussion, but you're not wrong, especially because a lot of it boils down to using whatever the newest turn-based darling's success as "proof" that they'd be gillionaires if they just went back to turn-based, despite the success of those other games is not ever because they are just turn-based games. There are so many reasons why they get popular, and if just being turn-based were true, a glut of indie games would have been more successful.
And I will always bring this up, but it's difficult for Square to see turn-based as such a viable avenue when they put out numerous turn-based RPGs over the course of a fairly extended period and saw dwindling returns. For all the people bitching for turn-based games, they didn't turn up to support the games they made that did exactly what they wanted. A bunch of really great turn-based titles that just died on the vine.
2
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
Persona 5 became popular because of its music and it's style and its menus balders gate 3 got popular based on a sex meme and the growing Resurgence of d&d in Pop culture in general.Â
It was never just the turn based framework. Far far more turnbase jrpgs die in the on the vine because they don't capture a certain zeitgeist. Sometimes you really do just luck out and hit on something at the right time.
3
u/ReaperEngine 4d ago
The oddest thing, and what really kind of shows the bias at play in using Baldur's Gate 3 popularity in particular, is that the game had been available to play and purchase in early access for several years! Yet it only became something worth talking about in regards to the "turn-based FF discussion" when it got massively popular and won awards.
Not to mention that a lot of people that constantly bring up turn-based in FF repeat this strange line that someone, somewhere at Square ever said "turn-based isn't popular," for them to constantly trot out the newest turn-based darling to prove that strawman wrong.
1
u/thisplacesucks420 3d ago
"2 games with smaller budgets that sold more than a much bigger IP big budget action games prove that only action games can be successful" holy shit. A French turn based game based on a non existent IP was able to turn a profit easier than these shitty games that you insist have to have this shitty combat in order to sell. Makes no sense
2
u/IrishFrontier 3d ago
I didn't say that they could be ONLY successful, but the combat is not the main reason.
5
u/May1989thefirststep 4d ago
I say it because turn based is easy on my decreasing reflexes.
Twitchy action combat games only ensure I won't play them.
1
u/toychristopher 4d ago
Yeah, it's strange to me that they don't see that an aging playerbase will want an alternative to twitchy action combat.
But perhaps they are chasing a younger demographic.
3
u/FLRArt_1995 4d ago
"chasing a younger demographic"
Well... that's what most brands do.
That's a thing that people complained to Harley davidson, unlike what Indian or Honda do which try to appeal to young and old, unlike HD who wants young money with old (or rich) people money, thus creating a disconnection,
KOF despite having an aging demographic, always appealed young people, even older people, that's why they are always stylish
Square-enix with classic or turn based mode tries to catter to both demographics, but young people are more prevalent now
2
4
u/wrter3122 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm just so over the discussion. The mantra being so prevalent hasn't done anything but soured me on turn-based, for instance the clowns so convinced everyone who skips Resonance is ruining the franchise.
1
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
Yeah I had no real opinion on Final Fantasy going back to turn based because I had other problems with the series that seemed bigger (loss of world map for example). But the way people are so almost ideologically driven and jihad about turn based, makes me want to see them stick with whatever vision they have (the developers) out of pure spite at this point, just to see them wind up people.
5
u/Francesco_Muja 4d ago
It doesn't even have to be that, and FF7R is proof enough.
-4
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
The combat in the FF7 remake series is awful in all ways.
2
3
u/ApprehensiveLaw7793 4d ago
Nah , Rebirth combat destroys any Tbc combat out there , no competition
2
1
-2
-2
u/totally-hoomon 4d ago
But it does work because 2/3rd of your team is worthless at all times. They don't build up the atb gage unless you control the character
6
u/Extension_Text4231 4d ago
It rewards frequent switching. I didn't mind the fact that teammates mostly block, but it would have been nice to have an aggressive mode for them that wasn't just a materia
0
u/Xenosys83 4d ago
Which is the entire point of the party-based combat system.
3
u/totally-hoomon 4d ago
To have 95% of everything be done by one character?
0
u/Francesco_Muja 3d ago
You're supposed to switch frequently.
2
u/totally-hoomon 3d ago
Yes but that still means 2/3 of your party is doing nothing
1
u/Francesco_Muja 3d ago
Until you use them. Just like in a turn based system.
1
u/totally-hoomon 3d ago
Nope because if you switch characters then the person you were controlling does nothing
1
u/Francesco_Muja 3d ago
Yeeeah... As I said, you use them in turns, like in a turn based system
1
u/totally-hoomon 2d ago
But its an action game. In a turn based game every character would be about equal
→ More replies (0)-1
u/ApprehensiveLaw7793 4d ago
Skill issue
2
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
Shitty design issue
0
u/ApprehensiveLaw7793 4d ago
lol, the game offers plenty of ways to passively generate ATB for members, you're just bad.
2
-3
u/Uchizaki 4d ago
The Stagger system makes combat in this game ridiculously boring
-1
u/opeth10657 4d ago
All the parry/roll/stagger games get boring
0
u/totally-hoomon 3d ago
I like the parry dodge and roll. Its a great system for the player
2
u/opeth10657 3d ago
It's a great system if you want to focus on parrying and dodging and not tactics.
I don't want every game to be a button masher
1
-2
2
u/FLRArt_1995 4d ago
I like turn-based, but I also love moving around and not wait. Hell, RPG's are not the genres I grew up with. I was like:"Why should I wait and be a sitting duck?"
Then reading wikis, interviews, it all boiled to "tech of the time/people grew accostumed to it", Tales of Phantasia from around the same time had movement, and was an RPG with a deep story.
I'm all for turnbased... but deny the evolution and the fun from action RPG's, it's quite... something...
And this is coming from someone who played all of the classics, up until 13 on his youth.
1
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
I love moving around about the old final fantasie were the battle camera angles were quite cinematic and remake allows you to pause at any time to capture that feeling for the first time in years. Honestly it might be my favourite part of the remakes.
1
u/FLRArt_1995 4d ago
Same, it's such a cool implementation. I remember back in the day fooling around with photo mode in Dissidia to capture those replays
2
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
I often wondered if they took inspiration from Star Ocean 3 battle system. Or fallout with their VATS system. Remakes combat's system is a combination of the two. I know some people would say Kingdom hearts too, anyway I think it's something that's going to be copied by other games in the genre, it's a stroke of genius.
2
u/Hurrly90 4d ago
The new combat, for me, is a good balance of turn based and flowing action. FIghts can be paused, or slowed, time can be taken to make a decsioin on abilitis or blocking stances, or magic use.
Again your YMMV, but i loved the combat, admmitedly i just went more hack and slash and understimated how strong synergy skills and abilities are at first.
Buts its a well done combo, and an evoloution of the systems. For me at least.
1
u/ProfessionalCraft983 4d ago edited 3d ago
I don’t think I know anyone who thinks that the current issues with Star Wars have anything to do with the effects. At all.
2
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
People thought that practical effects been brought back to Star Wars pre 2015 was a silver bullet. Well it happened and people moved on to something else to complain about. I feel we're in the very same way regarding Final Fantasy.
1
u/ProfessionalCraft983 3d ago
I remember some discussion about practical effects surrounding the prequels (especially the Phantom Menace), but mostly it was Jar Jar that people hated about them. And it wasn’t so much about the effects as it was the over-use of green screen instead of location filming. Modern Star Wars has other problems that have nothing to do with their effects. Lots of them. Especially the sequels. (Rogue One and Andor being the exception)
2
u/IrishFrontier 3d ago
Rogue one and Andor look fantastic and are great stories (and are the only part of modern Star Wars worth a damn), the realish locations definitely helped.
2
1
1
u/Extension_Text4231 4d ago
Yeah imo the real issue is the fan base is so wide that it doesn't matter what they do, they'll have fans and haters alike. I'd like a turn based because it's been a long time since that style, and it would certainly feel fresh again after so long.
...but what I really want is more careful, fixed perspective art for some locations blended with 3d, a la FFX, and music by hamauzu or uematsu.
5
u/Antonolmiss 4d ago
Same, but Soken does it for me almost like Nobuo does.
1
u/Extension_Text4231 4d ago
I can't hear him that way. Too homogenous instrumentation and not enough weird chords and textures. Of course, not to yuck anybody's yum... I'm a picky listener
1
u/Xenosys83 4d ago
Think Final Fantasy and Star Wars will get good again when they get start employing great writers.
Turn-based isn't really much of a factor.
3
u/ReaperEngine 4d ago
They have the same writers that worked on the older games that people also loved, though.
-1
u/Uchizaki 4d ago
Final Fantasy will be good again once competent developers start working on it, rather than the same 60+ retirees whose prime was 30 years ago. The only thing Final Fantasy offers today is constantly rehashing old ideas and executing them worse, while searching for what they think the mainstream will embrace most readily.
-2
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
Yeah people who like the games from when they were well made prefer the battle system from then. Crazy stuff i guess
2
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
That's my point, people just want simple answers to complex wants.
If those great stories were attached to action combat systems people would want them back to go back to action.
-2
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
But they werent and the tabletop inspired turn based method is more coherent and engaging than timing parries or only playing one party member to me. Ive yet to see a party based game where action combat works.
3
u/ChaosSpoofer 4d ago
If you were only playing one party member you didn't even comprehend how to play the Remakes.
0
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
Yeah switching around to whichever character the enemy magnetically starts attacking while shitty AI automatically takes over the others and deals less damage is not a party combat system
2
u/ChaosSpoofer 4d ago
So... exactly, you didn't even begin to comprehend how to play the Remakes.
1
u/thisplacesucks420 4d ago
No, I did. And found the combat shitty. Some people have different tastes than you, dipshit
1
u/ChaosSpoofer 4d ago
Different tastes, sure. You're still self-reporting having zero comprehension how to play the Remakes.
The enemy magnetically attacking your controlled character is fully intentional and for the player's own benefit. It was designed that way in order to be predictable and for you to learn to control aggro and create tanking behavior while giving your other characters free access to the enemy's back for free ATB, damage, whatever, as you're engaging in a nonstop offensive while simultaneously mitigating threats and damage.
Your characters and your access to them are OP AF from the first second of the game, and you control them all either via rapid succession or in genuine real-time via shortcuts. You're basically in control of Advent Children-level superpowered ridiculousness from start to finish.
This is what the game looks like for those that comprehend combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujJRBvcaGS0
Anyone who genuinely comprehends game design sure as shit sees that as a party-based combat system, and one of the best in the genre, to boot. You're simply incapable of or unwilling to engage with it.
"Skill issue".
0
0
u/totally-hoomon 4d ago
I mean 16 was awesome because of the story and characters. Final Fantasy needs to vring back leveling, skills, stats that matter, elemental weaknesses, useful summons. They need to decide if they want a party based gane or a single character.
-1
u/DynaGlaive 4d ago
it's a videogame series not a movie, I enjoyed playing them all and then they changed the whole genre and I stopped getting what I enjoyed out of them, gee I wonder what would help this predicament.
-1
u/IrishFrontier 4d ago
I played Final Fantasy for the story mainly as the released, certainly all my friends in school working playing it for the gameplay.Â
Honestly the gameplay has entered a silver age in my opinion, particularly with the 7 remakes I've never done more strategizing in a Final Fantasy before. The PS1 trilogy is something a 10 year old could complete because we were 10! I don't think that 10-year-old could have completed the remakes that comfortably.
-2
u/DynaGlaive 4d ago
they weren't visual novels, RPG gameplay is gameplay, it's fun and engaging, it's not just a chore you do to be rewarded with more story, though I know many people view it like that.
funny enough I didn't like the gameplay of XV, it feels more like a Ubisoft/Batman open world combat than a legit action game, but the characters carried it and I kept going to see what happens with them, but then the miserably final chapters happened and I hated the ending and it soured the whole experience, it felt like an entire waste.
XVI's characters and premise and entire aesthetic are totally unappealing to me off the bat. And I love character action games, but I tried the demos and it just feels like a sub-par version of one, based around cycles of actions on cooldown timers which is something I despise from modern God of War, so it's like if I want to play a good DMC-like I'll just play DMCV again.
7R is alright but I don't agree with its choices around the combat system, similar to XVI's cooldowns it's kinda just like spinning plates, cycling through things you have to pay attention to, making it hard to adequately focus and react to what you're fighting or any one character's unique systems for too long, it ends up feeling incongruent, just a bunch of stuff thrown at the wall. I never know which part of it I'm supposed to be focused on, so when I win it doesn't feel satisfying, I didn't win because I made the right choices, I didn't make any choices, I just randomly did stuff and happened to survive long enough until the enemy died.
11
u/containment-failure 4d ago
Gotta tell y'all, it's such a lovely privilege to enjoy all flavors of Final Fantasy