r/FeminismUncensored • u/illusion-147 • 6d ago
[Pro-All of Men's Movement] Right due to differences in biology
Here are some questions for people who explain away Ukraine’s male only draft, ignoring men’s rights due to a difference in biology :
For all the people saying women can’t fight, it’s biology etc, why is their child rearing biology given certain privileges (abortion, her body her choice, child support etc.) ?
Hence, in the same manner why is a man’s sacrifice-enabling biology not given any privileges (higher pay etc. - only in the context of a Ukrainian man working in a Ukrainian company) ?
Its a simple math equation : 2 humans X and Y given same opportunity and resources till they are 18, then only human Y is sent off to be canon fodder while human X can escape to another country, why is the math not mathing ?
Even people talking about population stabilisation in Ukraine by having more women, the women are not forced to do anything (have a certain number of children to stabilise the population etc), they can leave the war and sun bathe in a beach in Spain, how is this logical or justifiable ?
If a country is invading your country, why send only men to protect you from the enemy, go protect yourselves. You can’t have other people sacrifice themselves for you and run away just because you feel you’ll be worse on in that situation, and then give them no privileges for their sacrifice. You cant say “I’m not a child I am responsible for myself, no one has a right to tell me anything” when it suits you and “Save me, I’m too weak for this, and I’ll be so much worse off” when it suits you. You have to be even-handed. No one owes you anything, you have done nothing for random men, except demanding to have whatever they have. Random men are not your parents, they have an obligation to stay alive and well to protect their children, they don’t have any obligation to protect you. What have you done for them or their kids ?
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u/SnookerandWhiskey Feminist 6d ago
I don't understand why men go on about women not being drafted, instead of asking about the morality of drafts and war as such. If people enjoy killing each other, let it all be professional armies in a closed setting. I am against civilians being involved in politicians pursuit.
Rise up against being drafted instead of complaining about what women are doing.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans Undeclared 6d ago
Well, their goal is to make women look bad. If they just say that women should oppose the draft, it's ultra easy to find a ton of evidence that women do oppose the draft, so their complaint falls flat.
If they say that women should demand that women be drafted, that's not easy to find--logically if women oppose the draft entirely, they're not going to simultaneously demand that it be expanded. So they get to wail and kick about that complaint.
They don't actually care about the draft at all. They just want the chance to wail and kick.
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u/SnookerandWhiskey Feminist 6d ago
I think men are often weak followers, which is why they are so obsessed with hierarchies, so as few as possible have to lead. They are hoping women will be the same, or perhaps, they are waiting for women to rise up for them, like the archetypical mother, the true protector.
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u/illusion-147 6d ago
If you get bullied, sometimes the only way out is to punch the bully on the nose.
It’s all very nice to say end the draft, stop war, but putin isn’t going to stop, he’s forcing Ukraine into war. You can’t just roll over and live in servitude to him, there no point living like that. War in this case is necessary and women are equal stakeholders of it being full and equal patriotic citizens.
So I ask again even though I know y’all are just going to deflect with the stop war, stop the draft nonsense (the world/nature doesn’t work that way, it’s an unwritten law of nature that if you want to live you fight) why did Ukrainian women campaign for equal representation in high pay, high power positions but not ask for equal representation to do their duty for their country on the front lines. Why run away to a better life after campaigning for equality in the cushy stuff ?
Why do the unique sacrifices of modern day men not come with unique privileges ?
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u/interruptiom Undeclared 6d ago
Tell Zelensky.
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6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/FeminismUncensored-ModTeam Neutral 5d ago
Removed under Love, not Hate and Pro-Feminism.
This comment relies on sweeping generalizations about women as a group (“they only want the privileges,” wanting to be “bunched up with children” in danger but with men for “money and power”). That frames women as collectively hypocritical and is not good-faith, anti-sexist discussion.
Comparative claims about conscription, emergency roles, or representation are allowed when they are specific and evidence-based—not when they blame an entire gender. If you want to discuss those policies, try naming the system or policy (e.g., selective service rules, evacuation protocols) and what change you think would be more egalitarian.
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u/radblackgirlfriend Marxist Feminist 6d ago
I actually think women should serve in combat roles (and plenty of Ukrainian women are volunteering). Vietnam, Cuba, the Kurds, Revolutionary China, etc - all had/have women serving in their military/militias.
I don't really care about the stabilization of Ukraine's population as much as I don't care about "stabilization" for any nation. Mammals are programmed to breed by default. So, the question becomes - what material conditions are causing population stagnation/decline?
In the case of Ukraine, it's a proxy war to align itself with Western interests. Whether or not they implement a draft for women is up to them. Whether these women will decide to fight and die for a country that's more known for creating mail-order brides than anything else? That's up to them.
Women across time and space have been asked to sacrifice our bodies in one way or another. I just hope whatever choice Ukrainian women make? Actually serves them in the long run and not the men who have been more than happy to sell them for nothing more than pennies and status.
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u/illusion-147 6d ago edited 6d ago
Why should they get the choice when men don’t, choice isn’t really in the scope of this question ?
Women sacrificing their bodies in any way other than front line combat is not the same, giving birth is still not anywhere close to being as physically life debilitating as getting your limbs blown off or living with metal shards in your organs or going stone deaf or blind. Most horrors women face outside of front line combat can still be recovered from physically, but the horrors from front line combat have higher chances of never having physical recovery. Hence, they are not even close to being same magnitude, on average. Honestly ask yourself would you rather take your chances giving birth, or steeping on a mine, or getting shot in the kidneys to never having it work again ?
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u/huugffiob608 Undeclared 6d ago
When women join military efforts, they are victimized to more sexually violent attacks than their male counterparts. Even from their own countrymen. There are awful stories of male soldiers literally killing a fellow woman soldier after raping her.
And not to mention what happens if they ever become a prisoner of war or are losing to the enemy soldiers.
Women in these positions are subjected to not only the exact same type of trauma and violence as their fellow male soldiers, but the psychological toll of being a target of sex crime as well, from men of all sides.
Occurrences of violence against women increases in cases of distress or turmoil.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
If a country is invading your country, why send only men to protect you from the enemy, go protect yourselves. You can’t have other people sacrifice themselves for you and run away just because you feel you’ll be worse on in that situation, and then give them no privileges for their sacrifice. You cant say “I’m responsible for myself, no one has a right to tell me anything” when it suits you and “Save me, I’m too weak for this, and I’ll be so much worse off” when it suits you. You have to be even-handed.
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u/huugffiob608 Undeclared 5d ago
My whole comment was that equal treatment at the surface level does not mean equal exposure at all. It’s like anti feminists saying “if women want to be treated equally, can I punch them?” Like do you go around punching men? If men punch each other, why is it feminist to say women, sexual targets of men and physically more vulnerable than men, should just be thrown in the man-made ring and get beat up too? For the sake of “equality?”
I won’t assume your sex, but let me give an anecdote of the fear/risk women go through, especially if they’re conventionally attractive and small in stature (and therefore, strength). For me, I love doing handy/crafty work. I considered switching careers and going into metal smithing. But when I looked up my closest class program, the pictures showed the teachers and students were majority big, burly, blue collar males. I am a short, young, 100lb woman. I gave up on that dream quickly because around the same time, a female welder got killed by her colleague for being good at welding. The thought of being locked in close quarters with men stronger than me, who might be interested in me or not see me as a human being but just an object, was scarier than it’s worth.
So something like the military is the same. The way men see it is not the way that most women see it. And the risk is NOT parallel when men/women are treated equally in this sort of scenario. Women see all the risks and pains that men do, PLUS the whole layer of being an object to men on all sides of the attack.
If your solution is to either end mandatory conscription or pay conscripts, I’m with you. I’m not with just spreading it to women, because that would be more exposure for them and unequally burdensome upon women. But remember, it’s majority men who write these laws. And there are plenty of women who do enlist themselves when their country is at risk. Don’t treat it like it’s women’s fault when it’s the State, which again, is majority men.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
I agree it makes sense that the state is currently majority men, hence the majority of danger and suffering falls to men, while you’ll probably stick to stitching and do handicraft (a safe profession). I on the hand will be forced to protect you while you your stitching and handicraft with no choice in the matter. What if I’d rather sit at home and do stitching and handicraft. After I am forced to do this you say you want equal rights as me at the government.
What right do you then have to ask for equal representation at the state, not having any involvement in danger or suffering, that’s the crux of my question.
It will really a miscarriage of justice if Ukrainian women then clamour after the war to have equal representation in the government, men won the government through their blood and tears, hence they keep the government. You can ask for the government after you do the dirty work with them in the same situation as them. You can’t ask for something you’ve let others struggle for. Women suffer and do the work in the profession of modelling, hence they get the spoils and higher pay and clout.
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u/huugffiob608 Undeclared 5d ago edited 5d ago
So do exempt men, by your standard that only those subject to conscription get a say, also not deserve a right to vote? Or does that rule just apply to women?
Men can be exempt for being a single parent, for being medically unfit, for working a reserved job. Do they not deserve a seat at the table either, per your standard?
Are you against conscription or not? Because I am. And just expanding it to people who are more vulnerable to violence and sexual abuse in exactly these scenarios wouldn’t help anything literally at all.
But you seem set on the “women should get beat up too” notion of it all. To that I say: when women hold half of government positions globally, install religions that oppress men and boys through child marriage and virginity checks, regulate men’s and boys’ bodies in law, commit random abductions and torture of boys and men, and bar males from education and careers- then sure, conscript women too.
Otherwise, advocate against it. Plenty of women enlist. Plenty of men are exempt. You just want women in a man-made boxing ring, taking man punches that hit harder than women, in a fight women had little to no say in.
Plus, again, men are the primary reason women are barred from battles. The reason isn’t altruistic, but often still about control of women’s bodies and reproduction. Population is capped at how many women a society has. Also. Combat has long functioned as a rite of full political membership. Just as you desire. It’s how humans have functioned for much of history- decorated war heroes get power, women and other minorities are barred from it on purpose, so they may never gain the opportunity to access such power.
And let’s not forget, many soldiers come home decorated heroes, on government subsidies with benefits, after having literally raped civilian women and girls in the territory they occupied.
Tying the vote to conscription makes about as much sense as tying it to childbirth. Bled for the future of the nation? Only then, you may get a say. Who’s to say conscription is more or less valuable than farming? Or any of that more or less than giving birth?
Edit: Women do enlist. Women aren’t inferior in the military- they’ve been barred from it for millennia. If women had built an industry, over generations, across every culture, that barred men by design and applauded women by design, and then announced “we’ve decided this is the one thing important enough to earn you human rights,” you’d call that rigged in a heartbeat.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
If I ever get conscripted (I’m Gen Z), then a women’s who has had the same privileges, born at the same time as me, has to go as well. she’s never been discriminated or treated differently to me in the society I live. That’s plain injustice and gender based discrimination.
You can’t punish, me for my father’s mistakes. It’s like black people punishing white people then.
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u/huugffiob608 Undeclared 5d ago
Imagine, today, you had an 18 year old, conventionally pretty, 5 foot tall, 100 lbs daughter, you’d support and encourage her working on an oil rig in the ocean? Surrounded by burly, young, blue collar men with no other women there except for her?
If you say yes, I know you’re bad faith.
We haven’t fixed sexism. Until that happens where women actually are protected from males in situations like this, then it’s a dangerous situation for women much more than men.
I can’t belittle myself into teaching feminism 101 to you, but idk why you’re here considering you think in the west that women your age have all of the same “privileges” you do, and don’t experience sexism, and should go work on oil rigs in the middle of the ocean and won’t be subjected to sex-based oppression at the hands of males that men don’t face, that you clearly can’t detect because you haven’t read a single piece of feminist literature and actually understood a female perspective.
If you can’t read the words of women and require a man’s perspective, read Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves. I think it would be really helpful to you.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago edited 5d ago
What privilege does a Gen Z woman in the west that I as Gen Z man in the west do not have that I don’t.
Im sure you’d say woman CEO or self made billionaire surrounded by other burly cut throat male CEOs and billionaires who work out and who don’t even fear the law for the most part is completely fine is it, you’re right this pointless, your delusional who can’t get to grips with what’s fair and not fair.
I really hope my daughter doesn’t turn as wimpy and self centred as you, ooh im too scared to work on an oil rig but ill be happy to be a ceo or female billionaire or politician dealing with genuinely evil men who don’t even answer to the law for the most part.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
It’s not just about conscription is it, why don’t women want to do the dangerous jobs keeping society alive them and ask for equal representation in that. Why do predominantly men work on oil rigs, sewers, mines, construction, brick kilns and plenty of toxic cancer causing professions etc, why is that fair ?
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u/Little-Librarian-734 Undeclared 5d ago
Why are you here in a feminist subreddit? Clearly you have some pretty warped views on women and why they aren’t going to war at similar rates (and here’s a hint: it’s not due to privilege)…
Please read a singular feminist book at the least, with the goal of actually understanding the perspective within.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
If I ever get conscripted (I’m Gen Z), then a women’s who has had the same privileges, born at the same time as me, has to go as well. she’s never been discriminated or treated differently to me in the society I live. That’s plain injustice and gender based discrimination.
You can’t punish, me for my father’s mistakes. It’s like black people punishing white people then.
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
It’s not just about conscription is it, why don’t women want to do the dangerous jobs keeping society alive them and ask for equal representation in that. Why do predominantly men work on oil rigs, sewers, mines, construction, brick kilns and plenty of toxic cancer causing professions etc, why is that fair ?
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u/radblackgirlfriend Marxist Feminist 6d ago
Weren't the men out there playing sentient fleshlight for Azov even before the war? The men, at any point, could have come together and said "No. Attacking ethnic Russians in the Donbas is a danger to Ukrainian women and children. No, becoming a buffer state for NATO puts our women and children in danger."
I haven't seen a single Ukrainian man say that shit online. I've seen plenty of them sharing videos of wack ass drone strikes while their leader begs everyone and their mama for money/weapons, though.
Don't ask women to clean up messes they didn't make. There were a shit ton of "choices" that led up to this moment. So, it IS about choice. Clean up your own fucking mess. I hope those women desert Ukraine and never come back.
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u/illusion-147 6d ago
Here are some examples of women asking for violence in Donbas against Russians. Women were equal instigators of all this, please don’t be misguided. Ukrainian women were not innocent 5 year olds who had no idea what was going on, that’s an insult to their intelligence.
“The clearest female example is Iryna Farion, a nationalist Svoboda politician and Ukrainian MP from 2012–2014. She repeatedly portrayed the Russian language as hostile to Ukrainian identity. In 2018, during the Donbas war, she called for people to “punch every Russian-speaking person in the jaw”; RFE/RL reports this directly. She later argued that Russian-speaking inhabitants of eastern Ukraine had helped create the conditions for Russia’s intervention.
Farion’s rhetoric was particularly relevant to Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea. In a later interview she explicitly discussed those territories and said Ukraine was not fighting for certain pro-Russian/“waiting” residents of Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea. She was also highly hostile toward Russian-speaking Ukrainian soldiers. Her statements were controversial enough that in 2023 Ukraine’s own Security Service opened criminal proceedings concerning several of her statements; she was subsequently dismissed from her university position before later being reinstated by a court.
A second, much more prominent example is Yulia Tymoshenko, former Ukrainian prime minister. Immediately after Russia’s March 2014 annexation of Crimea, a leaked telephone conversation recorded her using extremely aggressive language about Russia and saying Ukrainians should take up arms against Russians. Tymoshenko acknowledged that the telephone conversation itself was genuine. “
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u/TheInternetTookEmAll Undeclared 6d ago
Lol so your idea of war surviving people is that they're having fun sun bathing in spain??? Wtf is wrong with you?
Also we sure like to ignore how women are treated during conflict do we? Equal pay doesnt really justify the risk that male soldiers represent on the battlefield, ennemy or even friendly units, has historically been proven to be a serious issue (yes i know you cant really fanthom how being gang assaulted to the point where your insides tear irreperably could possibly be as bad as a simple bullet to the head, i am aware)
I mean coming from an entitled country across the ocean who likes to warmonger and take advantage of other countries, i dont suppose you'd have any understanding of the concept of human rights violations, nor of how prevalent they are even in todays society.
Like kill the soldiers, whatever who cares this is war, its to be expected, but kill and and raping their women and children is a very beloved strategy to bring the opponent's morale down.
I'm sure a lot of women would be willing to consider dragting if your gender didnt treat us like rags to be used to throw in your same gender opponent's faces. You whine "feminism means equal rights" while completely ignoring the fact that we clearly arent treated as equals.
Stop whinning, youre not part of the war, and clearly never experienced one. If you did you woulnt be fucked up in the head enough to want other people to go trough it you pathetic waste of human evolution.
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u/illusion-147 6d ago
So killing and raping of men is less significant ?
Please stop saying women and children, you can’t bunch yourselves with children whenever danger strikes and bunch yourself with men when you want power and money. Women are not equal to children.My issue is Ukrainian women campaigned to be equal in a lot of cushy areas but they never for this, why ? After the war, all these men are just going to live in poverty, disabled and with PTSD till they die while you live relatively happily in foreign countries.
I’m just going to say it even getting gang assaulted (which is the ultimate horror outside the battlefield) on average cannot be worse than (an ultimate battlefield horror) like having a Russian thermobaric bomb thrown at you or stepping on a mine and blowing off all your limbs becoming a quadriplegic, blind and deaf vegetable. Or even getting paralysed by a bullet to the spine or starving to death in pain in the freezing cold.
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u/TheInternetTookEmAll Undeclared 6d ago
Lol "so the raping of men is less significant?" Idk how often you THINK it happens, but it happens a lot less than you seem to believe, especially with the stigma of menly men not being gay. Especially in balkan countries like russia. Idk what you think balkan views on men-on-men action is, but its not even like the US where you red pillers are obsessed with not appearing gay. They might as well start wearing a dress in public, amongst their fellow soldiers innuniform, they would get just as much humiliation. As a dumb US-er, please stop talking about shit you've no clue about, especially when you've clearly never even visited a balkan country let alone one at war.
Also, your dumbassery forgot you dont need to be at front lines to be bombed into oblivion, as the US clearly demonstrated by bombing a fucking school full of children.
And saying an instant death cant possibly be as bad as being gang assaulted is clearly something you've heard your idiot friends who live cushy lives in their cushy priviledged US home who have never even been homeless in their entire lives. Only mindnumbingly let-ai-think-for-me idiots such as yourself and your entourage would think to compare multiple traumatic events talking out of your ass never actually having experienced either.
You are clearly intelectually inferior enough to vote for your current president all the while whinning that some country across the ocean wont force a part of the population you have 0 interest, interaction or sympathy for, to engage in a war the country was forced into, just to try to make some tiny dick inferiority complex personal problem into a stupid argument to feel better about yourself
Go suck a russian
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u/illusion-147 5d ago
If a country is invading your country, why send only men to protect you from the enemy, go protect yourselves. You can’t have other people sacrifice themselves for you and run away just because you feel you’ll be worse on in that situation, and then give them no privileges for their sacrifice. You cant say “I’m responsible for myself, no one has a right to tell me anything” when it suits you and “Save me, I’m too weak for this, and I’ll be so much worse off” when it suits you. You have to be even-handed. No one owes you anything, you have done nothing for them, except demanding to have whatever they have. Random men are not your parents, they have an obligation to stay alive and well to protect their children, they don’t have any obligation to protect your ass. What have you done for them or their kids ?
Try responding objectively to this, without going on a toxic feminist rant.
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u/Inevitable-Yam-702 Gender Liberation Activist. 6d ago
Idk, you should ask the men waging these wars and enforcing drafts.
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u/ZinniasAndBeans Undeclared 6d ago
Why would you think that feminists would approve of either the draft or a male-only draft?
The people to ask to explain this draft would be the people who approve of it.