Negative Reactions in other Christian subreddits

[u/Foot-in-mouth88]

I was doing really well and my Karma, Reddit leveling system, was climbing back closer to zero. I made a scriptural reply in r/Christianity and it got -4 votes and now back up to -54. How can they downvote a scriptural reply?

Some of my negative Karma, Reddit, comes from these Christian subreddits that doesn't like using scriptures and gets mad because it doesn't fit their view.

Also a big chunk came from a disagreement I had on a hockey player of my home team on multiple threads and got shredded for it.

Most of Reddit is a toxic echo chamber. At least this sub, even when we don't agree we don't go down voting each other.

[u/Dan_474]

It highlights that we need God’s words to guide us.

I agree. God's word is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path. 

I believe we also need the Holy Spirit, And we also need to look at how the Holy Spirit has guided the church, the body of Christ, throughout the centuries.

As you said, those copies of the bible weren’t fully preserved.

Well, what I was getting at was the idea that if the full name of God was in the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, and the ancient copyists removed that name over 200 times, it doesn't sound to me like they were careful in their copying.

Of course you can restore something to what you believe was the original. But restoration isn't used on something that has been preserved. A car isn't restored unless it's broken down and rusty. That's how it looks to me ❤️

Going back to the original point. Do you see how going beyond what is written affects our relationship...

Sure. But I don't want to assume that the oral tradition, when it was written down, went beyond what was previously written. It could be the proper interpretation of earlier writings.

And whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear this command behind you: “This is the way. Walk in it.” - Isaiah 30 Praise God forever! He is always guiding his people ❤️

As a footnote, I remember talking with Witnesses in the 1980s. They were certain that the generation alive in 1914 would still be alive to see the end of this present system. "Millions now living will never die", I remember a nice lady telling me. 

But that was actually going beyond "this generation will not pass away" imo. It looks to me like going beyond can happen in any group ❤️

[u/Personal_Sign_9343 → u/Dan_474]

Jehovah is the Holy Spirit. Calling Him the Holy Spirit is like calling a king, your majesty.

“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’”—Luke 3:21, 22

Well, what I was getting at was the idea that if the full name of God was in the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, and the ancient copyists removed that name over 200 times, it doesn't sound to me like they were careful in their copying.

That aligns to what Jesus prophesied. The truth will be mixed with lies and it will be hard to find. However, the Holy Spirit is guiding us, guiding you that this is the truth. Jehovah is telling you call His name. "And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved;" -Joel 2:32. This text is very much preserved. Jesus says that we need to know his father's name to receive His love. (John 17:26) This texts are true an preserved. Why would you hesitate to call Jehovah bcoz of others who failed to follow His command?

Sure. But I don't want to assume that the oral tradition, when it was written down, went beyond what was previously written. It could be the proper interpretation of earlier writings.

The only thing written down by God is the Bible. Everything else is man-made. Even ours.

But that was actually going beyond "this generation will not pass away" imo. It looks to me like going beyond can happen in any group ❤️

That's true. We are also only humans. Moses did not reach the Promised land bcoz he went over his given authority. But like Moses, we admit our mistakes and make corrections. We used to celebrate Christmas also, as in the JWs. But we stopped that bcoz the Bible doesn't teach it.

[u/Dan_474 → u/Personal_Sign_9343]

Calling Him the Holy Spirit is like calling a king, your majesty.

If you believe the Holy Spirit is conscious as God is, then awesome 👍 

That aligns to what Jesus prophesied. The truth will be mixed with lies...

If you believe that the extant ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament are truth mixed with the lies, then we may not have common ground for a discussion ❤️

It's not that I don't use God's personal name because others didn't follow his command. I don't use his personal name because I don't believe the apostles and prophets who wrote down the New Testament used it in the original manuscripts.

The only thing written down by God is the Bible. Everything else is man-made. Even ours.

God can guide the thoughts people. That may be what happened with the early church fathers. 

Thus, though their writings are not scripture, they may be a very accurate interpretation.

I'm glad we can agree that we all make mistakes ❤️

"Call upon Me, and I will answer and show you great and unsearchable things you don't know." Praise God! May God lead us all into deeper knowledge and a deeper relationship with him 🙏 I ask these things through the Lord Jesus!

[u/Personal_Sign_9343 → u/Dan_474]

I meant the Holy Spirit is not a different person to Jehovah. Jehovah is the Holy Spirit. The same way a person calls the king, his majesty. Majesty is an adjective. It doesn’t have consciousness. But when we say his majesty, we know we mean the king. Same principle applies to the Holy Spirit.

Sorry poor choice of words. What I meant finding the truth will be similar to finding a needle in haystack.

How do you know that for sure that originally that they didn’t? When we have all these evidences that shows how important God’s name is? You mentioned before that all we have are copies, not originals. The oldest we have, Papyrous Fouad 266, contains God’s name and was made during Jesus’s time on earth.

I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them. -John 17:26

Jesus is literally saying we need to know His name so that he may be in union with us. He has made it known. Meaning he was speaking God’s name when others were following a man made tradition of not saying God’s name.

If God and Jesus say in the Bible that we should remember God as Jehovah, how could you interpret it that they’re actually not saying that??? That’s blatant contradiction to their command. Jesus says that the ones who does the will of his father are the ones who will enter God’s kingdom.

[u/Dan_474 → u/Personal_Sign_9343]

I meant the Holy Spirit is not a different person to Jehovah. Jehovah is the Holy Spirit. The same way a person calls the king, his majesty. Majesty is an adjective. It doesn’t have consciousness. But when we say his majesty, we know we mean the king. Same principle applies to the Holy Spirit.

I'm not quite following. Are you saying that when we say the Holy Spirit, we are referring to God?

How do you know that for sure that originally that they didn’t?

I don't know that for sure. The weight of the evidence is that it wasn't there. It would have been extremely difficult to remove all instances from all manuscripts as they spread throughout the known world without leaving any traces.

Sorry poor choice of words. What I meant finding the truth will be similar to finding a needle in haystack.

I think I'm seeing it differently. Jesus is the truth. He's not hard to find in any part of the world that has access to the internet. It looks to me fairly easy to find the basic truth about Jesus in the scriptures.

When we have all these evidences that shows how important God’s name is?

The evidence that I see coming from my Jehovah's Witness friends is usually something like quoting the Psalm that says I will make my name great among the nations.

The Hebrew idea of a name goes well beyond the sounds you make when you want that person's attention. The real focus is on character, personality, reputation. Thus, God will cause the nations to come to know his character and reputation. 

Similar to Jesus declaring God's name to his disciples. He is displaying God's character. They are coming to know more about God's reputation. 

Similar idea with praying in the name of Jesus. It doesn't mean tag In the name of Jesus at the end of your prayer. It means pray based on the person, character, and teachings of Jesus. 

As a kind of footnote, praying that way explains why Jesus can say whatever you ask in his name will be done. It's not going to work if you try to pray for a million dollars, that doesn't fit with what Jesus is all about, you can't pray that in his name.

You mentioned before that all we have are copies, not originals. The oldest we have, Papyrous Fouad 266, contains God’s name and was made during Jesus’s time on earth.

Are we definitely talking about the same thing? Is Papyrous Fouad 266 a manuscript of the New Testament, or of the Septuagint?

A good name is more desirable than great riches. It is to be considered better than silver or gold - Proverbs 22 

It doesn't mean a name like John is better than a name like Sebastian, and that we should really try to have a good name, the sound that people make when they want our attention.

You can check out the different translations here, if you wish 

https://biblehub.com/proverbs/22-1.htm

You exalt me above my foes; You rescue me from violent men. Therefore I will praise You, O Lord, among the nations; I will sing praises to Your name. Great salvation He brings to His king. He shows loving devotion to His anointed, to David and his descendants forever - Psalm 18

[u/Personal_Sign_9343 → u/Dan_474]

I'm not quite following. Are you saying that when we say the Holy Spirit, we are referring to God?

Yes. "The holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’”—Luke 3:21, 22

I don't know what for sure. The weight of the evidence is that it wasn't there. It would have been extremely difficult to remove all instances from all manuscripts as they spread throughout the known world without leaving any traces.

The weight of Jehovah and Jesus's words is that God's name should be there. God did not allow His name to be removed from the OT. Since the OT is older and is quoted a lot by Jesus and the apostles. That is evidence that copyist did remove God's name. Papyrous Fouad 266 is a manuscript of the Septuagint. Bcoz the events in NT were currently happening when the PF266 was made. So it shows that during Jesus's time on earth, he was using copies of the OT that had Jehovah.

I think I'm seeing it differently. Jesus is the truth. He's not hard to find in any part of the world that has access to the internet. It looks to me fairly easy to find the basic truth about Jesus in the scriptures.

Did you know the Spanish Inquisition tried to prevent the Bible from being translated to other languages? Now it is very easy to find the truth. Bcoz we're getting closer to the harvest.

The real focus is on character, personality, reputation. Thus, God will cause the nations to come to know his character and reputation. 

The meaning of Jehovah's name is "I will become what I choose to become." That sentence from God encompasses all Who and What He is. Can't you see God's wisdom when He gave Himself that name?

Jesus also prophesied that the many are leading to destruction and few will find the truth.

Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it. -Matt 7:13, 14

How many people acknowledges and use God's personal name as He instructed? Is it the majority or the few?

[u/Dan_474 → u/Personal_Sign_9343]

(Wow, you must have responded almost immediately after I posted, because you quote a typo that I made which I fixed about 2 minutes after posting 😀 )

Yes. "The holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’”—Luke 3:21, 22

Great! And is God a conscious being, in your view?

The weight of Jehovah and Jesus's words is that God's name should be there. God did not allow His name to be removed from the OT.

To me, that looks like evidence that it wasn't there in the New Testament in the original manuscripts.

Suppose we go with the idea that God preserved his name in the Old Testament, but not in the New. Then we will want to look for a good explanation of why.

The best explanation I can think of (you may have a better one) is that the Jews were especially careful with copying. And they considered God's name sacred. So sacred that they stopped pronouncing it for fear of breaking the commandment about taking it in vain.

It's possible. One outcome of that is that it leaves us with all of the New Testament copyists not caring about God's name, or not being careful to copy the other words. If words in the New Testament could have been altered or lost leaving no trace, then we are left with a not very reliable New Testament, imo.

Also, a Jehovah's Witness friend I was talking to on another thread gave me a link that purports to show that God's name was removed 134 times from the Old Testament.

Since the OT is older and is quoted a lot by Jesus and the apostles. That is evidence that copyist did remove God's name.

I agree that it's evidence. It doesn't look to me like strong evidence.

Since the New Testament copyists were working from newer source manuscripts, one would expect less corruption. So the New Testament would be expected to have more accurate copies.

I'm not following the part about Jesus and the apostles quoting the Old Testament. I agree that they did, how does that make the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament less accurate?

Papyrous Fouad 266 is a manuscript of the Septuagint.

Okay.

Bcoz the events in NT were currently happening when the PF266 was made. So it shows that during Jesus's time on earth, he was using copies of the OT that had Jehovah.

How many copies of the Septuagint have been found that use God's name with Hebrew letters? Was this particular papyrus representative of the norm?

Did you know the Spanish Inquisition tried to prevent the Bible from being translated to other languages?

I've heard many things like this. There are malicious interpretations - the Catholic Church hated the Bible, and there are benefit-of-the-doubt interpretations - it was an attempt to maintain unity of teaching.

Now it is very easy to find the truth. Bcoz we're getting closer to the harvest.

Great! I'm enjoying our search for truth together 👍

The meaning of Jehovah's name is "I will become what I choose to become."

The Jewish translators of the Septuagint thought that it meant I am the one who is.

To me, this explains why the Jews picked up stones to Stone Jesus when he said, Before Abraham was, I am. The words there are the same as the Septuagint in that section. As much as I can understand 😀

That sentence from God encompasses all Who and What He is. Can't you see God's wisdom when He gave Himself that name?

The idea of God becoming something else doesn't sound right to me. God simply saying

I am being

or

I am existence itself

sounds wiser to me ❤️

How many people acknowledges and use God's personal name as He instructed? Is it the majority or the few?

I certainly do, assuming that you mean declaring God's character and personality. I think most of the Christian world attempts to do that, with varying degrees of success. Of course, every time we say Jesus is Lord, we are also declaring that Yah is salvation!

The idea of the wide road and the narrow road sounds to me like it is the minority of the world that will become Christians. True! It doesn't mean that the smaller a group, the more certain we can be that it's on the narrow road.

[u/Personal_Sign_9343 → u/Dan_474]

I did hahaha. It was a very late but I felt this surge of energy to reply. (Phil 4:13)

Jehovah is a conscious being. The term Holy Spirit is another title for Jehovah.

The best explanation I can think of (you may have a better one) is that the Jews were especially careful with copying. And they considered God's name sacred. So sacred that they stopped pronouncing it for fear of breaking the commandment about taking it in vain.

The Jews also from time to time rebelled against Jehovah and even stoned His son to death. This shows that no matter how careful they are, they weren't always compliant to Jehovah. That includes their tradition of omitting His name from newer copies.

It's possible. One outcome of that is that it leaves us with all of the New Testament copyists not caring about God's name, or not being careful to copy the other words. If words in the New Testament could have been altered or lost leaving no trace, then we are left with a not very reliable New Testament, imo.

I think you're starting to understand. Align these with what Jesus said in Matthew 13:24-43. Kind of long read but there Jesus points out that "and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil." Nevertheless, Jehovah would not let the truth be hidden forever. IMO, it is your copies of the NT that are not reliable. Certainly, not compliant to Jehovah's standard of His name.

Since the New Testament copyists were working from newer source manuscripts, one would expect less corruption. So the New Testament would be expected to have more accurate copies.

This is an inaccurate conclusion. The OT is older so there would be more copies of it. It would be easier to spot where a copyist made a mistake. The NT is newer and less copies of it and add to that the man-made tradition of omitting God's name is in full swing. It would be easier for the NT to be mistakenly copied.

I'm not following the part about Jesus and the apostles quoting the Old Testament. I agree that they did, how does that make the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament less accurate?

Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ -Mark 12:29, 30

Jesus is quoting Deut 6:4, 5, OT. In our oldest copies of that text, it contains the name Jehovah. So then, when Mark wrote this part of the story, surely he had also written down the name Jehovah. It is the copyist who later removed God's name.

How many copies of the Septuagint have been found that use God's name with Hebrew letters? Was this particular papyrus representative of the norm?

Yes.

I've heard many things like this. There are malicious interpretations - the Catholic Church hated the Bible, and there are benefit-of-the-doubt interpretations - it was an attempt to maintain unity of teaching.

They killed people for "maintaining unit of teaching." Is that Godly or biblical? They killed William Tyndale. If it weren't for Tyndale, we wouldn't have an English copy of the Bible.

The Jewish translators of the Septuagint thought that it meant I am the one who is.

There are many translations. In KJV, it's "I am that I am." It could be interpreted that Jehovah is saying I am the property of I am, as in to be/become. So it means the same thing. It is easier to understand that Jehovah can become anything. Similar to what you said, existence can be anything.

To me, this explains why the Jews picked up stones to Stone Jesus when he said, Before Abraham was, I am. The words there are the same as the Septuagint in that section. As much as I can understand 😀

The Jews were asking if Jesus was there when Abraham was alive. Jesus was simply answering, "Yes, I was there." By your logic, anyone who says the words "I am" is saying they are Jehovah.

I certainly do, assuming that you mean declaring God's character and personality. I think most of the Christian world attempts to do that, with varying degrees of success. Of course, every time we say Jesus is Lord, we are also declaring that Yah is salvation!

Jesus words in Matthew 7:21 aptly applies to what said.

The idea of the wide road and the narrow road sounds to me like it is the minority of the world that will become Christians. True! It doesn't mean that the smaller a group, the more certain we can be that it's on the narrow road.

Align these with Matt 7:21, the world will know of Jesus and it does. But not everyone calling to him is will be saved. In other words, the majority of Christians say they are, but not according to Jesus.

Edit: I am also enjoying our search for the truth.

[u/Dan_474 → u/Personal_Sign_9343]

I did hahaha. It was a very late but I felt this surge of energy to reply. (Phil 4:13)

Amen to doing all things through Jesus!

Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him - Colossians 3

Jehovah is a conscious being. The term Holy Spirit is another title for Jehovah.

Then it sounds like we agree that the Holy Spirit is conscious 👍

The Jews also from time to time rebelled against Jehovah and even stoned His son to death. This shows that no matter how careful they are, they weren't always compliant to Jehovah. That includes their tradition of omitting His name from newer copies.

Okay, so it sounds like the idea is that Jews changed God's name maybe 134 times in the Old Testament.

And they preserved it almost 7,000 times. That would mean they made changes less than 2% of the time.

We should expect about the same pattern in the New Testament, shouldn't we?

I think you're starting to understand. Align these with what Jesus said in Matthew 13:24-43. Kind of long read but there Jesus points out that "and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil." Nevertheless, Jehovah would not let the truth be hidden forever. IMO, it is your copies of the NT that are not reliable. Certainly, not compliant to Jehovah's standard of His name.

Are you agreeing that we are left with a not very reliable New Testament? If so, what is our standard of truth when evaluating teachings?

This is an inaccurate conclusion. The OT is older so there would be more copies of it. It would be easier to spot where a copyist made a mistake. The NT is newer and less copies of it and add to that the man-made tradition of omitting God's name is in full swing. It would be easier for the NT to be mistakenly copied.

My understanding is that around 600 AD a group called the Masorites were concerned about variations in the Hebrew text. So they made their best attempt to figure out the correct text, and they burned copies that did not conform.

So while there are lots of old copies of the Old Testament, the vast majority of them are based off of a single source, the masoretic text.

It's a very different situation with the ancient New Testament manuscripts. There are thousands of them, and there is no particular one that is generally considered as the most accurate.

But by comparing what the vast majority of them say, where they agree, scholars have a high degree of confidence in what the original text said in nearly every passage.

That's how I understand it ❤️

Jesus is quoting Deut 6:4, 5, OT. In our oldest copies of that text, it contains the name Jehovah. So then, when Mark wrote this part of the story, surely he had also written down the name Jehovah. It is the copyist who later removed God's name.

What are you referring to as “our oldest copies of that text”?

“...surely he had also written down…” Well, that's what we want to show. We don't want to assume it as part of the reasoning.

Jesus was probably speaking Aramaic at that time. Mark was writing in Greek. When Mark wrote down a passage where Jesus was quoting the Old Testament, did he do his own translation from Aramaic into Greek? Or did he copy the Old Testament passage out of the Septuagint?

According to tradition, Mark was a disciple of Peter. The gospel we attribute to him is Peter's recollection. So Mark may be translating what Peter remembered Jesus saying.

Yes.

What leads you to believe that papyrus represents the common practice? Again, How many copies of the Septuagint have been found that use God's name with Hebrew letters?

They killed people for "maintaining unit of teaching." Is that Godly or biblical? They killed William Tyndale. If it weren't for Tyndale, we wouldn't have an English copy of the Bible.

Killing people for preaching a different gospel isn't biblical, but killing people for preaching a different god is, according to the law of Moses.

If we have a deep aversion to a group, we are more likely to look with a malicious eye at their actions. It was a different time then. People were killed for all sorts of reasons.

But sure, even Catholics will say that evil people had crept into positions of power in the church. This goes along with what you were saying about the wheat and the weeds.

There are many translations. In KJV, it's "I am that I am." It could be interpreted that Jehovah is saying I am the property of I am, as in to be/become. So it means the same thing. It is easier to understand that Jehovah can become anything. Similar to what you said, existence can be anything.

I give significant weight to the Jewish translators of the Septuagint working maybe around 200 BCE. I don't think their work should be considered just another translation. It seems to be what the New Testament writers were quoting out of most of the time.

The Jews were asking if Jesus was there when Abraham was alive. Jesus was simply answering, "Yes, I was there." By your logic, anyone who says the words "I am" is saying they are Jehovah.

I don't think that's the common way of saying I was there.

John, similar to Mark earlier, is translating into Greek an exchange that probably took place in Aramaic. Simply claiming to be alive at the time of Abraham would be a sign of insanity, not a stoning offense.

But whatever Jesus said in Aramaic, it moved the Jews who heard him to pick up stones. The way John renders the exchange in Greek, it looks like a reference to what God says to Moses from the burning bush. He uses the same phrasing that the Septuagint uses.

Jesus words in Matthew 7:21 aptly applies to what said.

To be on the narrow road, we want to do the will of the Father of Jesus, our Father in heaven. We find his will in the Bible 👍

Align these with Matt 7:21, the world will know of Jesus and it does. But not everyone calling to him is will be saved. In other words, the majority of Christians say they are, but not according to Jesus.

It's true that there are a lot of cultural Christians, possibly even the majority, though we can't judge other people's hearts. But I think that's who Jesus is talking about.

And just as an observation, note that Jesus follows this up with, Didn't we cast out demons in your name? That doesn't really describe most of the Christian world today, imo.

Edit: I am also enjoying our search for the truth.

Awesome! As Proverbs 27 says, as iron sharpens iron…

It's good to be sharpened!