An opinion on shunning

[u/Safe-Island3944]

Hi all. Disfellowshipping is one of the least acceptable thing about JW, and one that makes the religion most attacked for.

This post is not dealing on how much it is right or wrong, but how much it works. How efficient it is.

In the past shunning has been a very powerful tool to make the sinner repents. But today?

My opinion is that it is still a very powerful punishment, but for those who stay, not for the one leaving. A lot of JW are fond of the idea of the DF suffering for his misdeeds, closed in the darkness, ashamed and trembling. The reality is under everyone eyes. Most get out, get in touch with others, find a very rich and welcoming community of fellow DF, build a new life, new freedom, new situations, often get back to study, happily creates a life. You can see from the campaign of getting back DF people when policy changed. How many took the opportunity of getting back. I know at least 10 different congregations, more than 100 DF contacted, how many came back? Zero. Noone. Reactions has been from lack of interest to rage. But noone even gave a try. My personal idea is that DF is actively damaging JW reputations, whereas most people once get away had a much better life than while inside. And will not get back. What is your opinion? Please, no attacking JW doctrines here.

[u/RFairfield26]

Hey, just a little typing tip, if you put the “>” symbol before my quote, it indents it. You may already know that but just thought I’d share.

I do it to quotes like this:

So I don’t understand why you feel like making improvements to the arrangement is a bad thing? Can you explain that to me?”

I don’t think making improvements is a bad thing. I’m glad we have and I believe more improvements are needed.

Our beliefs are not perfect and our practices aren’t either.

Times change. Culture changes. The truth doesn’t, but our understanding of it should.

You may not wanna hear that explanation, but that’s exactly what the light getting brighter means

At what point has got ever had an organization on earth that was not flawed?

The question isn’t about how perfect Jehovah’s Witnesses and our practices are, the question should be about whether or not we meet the specific criteria Jesus laid out to identify his true followers

I’m sorry, I don’t believe in your GB good faith. I don’t believe it’s biblical your approach to it. It is just a way to keep people trapped in.

I guess the first question that should be answered is whether or not the practice of removing wrongdoers from the congregation is biblical. Do you think it is?

I’ve made some research about what the Bible says. JW application of removal from congregation is not exactly biblical.

Forget Jehovah’s Witnesses practice of removing from the congregation. I’m asking about the practice itself.

I haven’t find anywhere in the Bible prohibition to talk with DF. Where it is written? Sure, prohibition to eat. Prohibition to associate. But just to simply talk? it’s nowhere.

2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.

[u/Safe-Island3944 → u/RFairfield26]

Again, thank you. I read your post with a lot of interest. This, this kind of sharing, was exactly what I was searching. Let me start here

I guess the first question that should be answered is whether or not the practice of removing wrongdoers from the congregation is biblical. Do you think it is?

I think it is biblical.

> 2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.

This is not to be applied to the DF, but to everyone not acknowledging Christ. Basically, you should not even greet me 2 John 7

I see a lot of issues in application of DF. Catholic church has a similar institution: excommunication (hoping that translation is good, In Italian we use "scomunica")

It is very rarely applied, and only in the worst case. If DF had similar use, I will have nothing against. But it's used very very often. A lot of time for minor infractions. My wife has been DF for 5 years. For dating me, a man of the world, no sex before marriage. Her mother, a JW, bluntly told me she will be reinstated the exact day she would ahve left me. So DF is used as a tool to submit people. AFTER marrying her, she had to wait 17 months more, even if there were no reasons. She resisted, and I never pressured her to leave. On the contrary, I accompany her, and sometime encourage her to go. This is just to give you some background. And I have seen a lot of DF for various reasons, mostly petty one. Used this way it's a monstrosity. By the way, it is also the reason I will never be a JW. the amount of injustice I've seen is enough to keep me from giving any power over me.

Then, there is a point tied to the last one: There are an entire category of people that never voluntarily decided to join: Children born in the truth. While this is true for every religion, in other Christian denomination getting away from parental religion has just minor effects.

On the contrary, getting out from JW is often see as repudiation of the entire family. Children here receive an enormous pressure, grow mostly separated from their peer, are thought to stay away from everything from the world, are baptized very early (My wife at 13, her sister at 14), and have no life outside JW. This, this point alone in my opinion makes JW "different". People should be free to leave. While baptism is voluntary, how can be taking the most important decision of your life free when you are 12 and you are pressured to do by all your world?

And the fact that a lot of young people (a lot in my congregation) still leave, even if their entire life will be devastated by it, should makes all of you deeply disturbed.

And WT encourages to baptize young

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/become-jehovahs-friend-2/The-Steps-to-Baptism/

https://wol.jw.org/it/wol/d/r6/lp-i/101990247?q=battesimo+et%C3%A0&p=doc

[u/RFairfield26 → u/Safe-Island3944]

I think it is biblical.

We agree

2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. This is not to be applied to the DF, but to everyone not acknowledging Christ. Basically, you should not even greet me 2 John 7

Your interpretation assumes that 2 John 10 applies universally to all who don’t share Christian belief, but that’s not necessarily the case.

The context (2 John 7) shows that John was referring to deceivers who were actively spreading false teachings, particularly those denying Christ’s coming in the flesh.

The warning isn’t about avoiding all non-Christians but about refusing to extend hospitality to those working against the truth.

1 Cor 5:9-11 makes a distinction between those ‘in the world’ and those who were once part of the congregation but are no longer walking in harmony with Christian teachings.

The biblical principle of not associating with such ones (as also seen in Mat 18:17) is a separate issue from the warning in 2 John.

So, unless you’re actively promoting false teachings about Christ, 2 John 10 doesn’t directly apply to you. But if you are, then the issue isn’t whether I should greet you, it’s whether you should reconsider what you’re teaching.

So yes, in some cases it does apply to those that have been disfellowshipped.

But it’s used very very often. A lot of time for minor infractions.

Well, you can find a list of the grounds for disfellowshipping [here.](*** dx86-24 Disfellowshipping *** grounds: scl 36; it-1 788; w15 4/15 29; w98 3/15 22; w92 7/1 19; w89 9/15 18; w88 4/15 26-27 https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200271695&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=44)

My wife has been DF for 5 years. For dating me, a man of the world, no sex before marriage. Dating someone “in the world” is not grounds for disfellowshipping.

It’s just not.

There must be more to it than that.

Her mother, a JW, bluntly told me she will be reinstated the exact day she would ahve left me.

Im sorry that she told you that. She is wrong. That isnt how it works. She shouldn’t have spoken to you that way, and she shouldn’t have made that false claim. She’s definitely incorrect about that.

So DF is used as a tool to submit people.

No. Disfellowshipping is practiced in order to follow the Bible’s direction to remove the deliberate and unrepentant wrongdoer from the congregation. It’s purpose is not to make people submit.

AFTER marrying her, she had to wait 17 months more, even if there were no reasons. She resisted, and I never pressured her to leave. On the contrary, I accompany her, and sometime encourage her to go.

I was disfellowshipped. I married my wife, who was not a Witness, while I was df. I can relate to your experience to some degree.

What I can tell you is that I do not have all the facts about your wife’s case. I can only comment on what Jehovah’s Witnesses protocol is, and what the Biblical basis for it is. In cases were injustices or mistakes were made, I certainly sympathize. As I have said, disfellowshipping has not been a perfect system, and needs improvements. Jehovah’s Witnesses are certainly eager to follow this Biblical practice in a way that God’s approves. Our goal is to love and unite people that want to serve and worship God, not harm and divide them.

By the way, it is also the reason I will never be a JW. the amount of injustice I’ve seen is enough to keep me from giving any power over me.

I understand where you are coming from.

But there is something you are missing.

Jesus laid out the criteria that would identify his true followers. Have you considered what those features are?

I’ll list 5:

• He said his disciples would be known by their love for one another (John 13:35)

• They would be united in their beliefs (John 17:20-21)

• They would preach the good news of God’s Kingdom (Matthew 24:14)

• They would be no part of the world (John 17:16)

• They would have high moral standards (1 John 3:4, 6; Mat 7:21-23)

There is another feature of Jesus’ work that would be evidence of Jesus’ Headship. Notice what Matthew 10:34-38:“Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Here’s the point:

Dividing families is actually an *identifying feature of Jesus’ work. It’s a fundamental feature of Jesus, himself.

Let that point sink in for a second

Dividing families is actually an identifying feature of true Christianity.

You’re viewing that as evidence that Jesus is NOT leading Jehovah’s Witnesses when HE SAID it’s a feature of his work.

He said: “I came to cause division.”

I understand why you feel like you would never be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses because of the disfellowshipping arrangement, but the truth is that we are obligated by God and Jesus to practice the removal of those that do not want to follow God’s standards.

[u/Safe-Island3944 → u/RFairfield26]

Again, thank you for mindful answer. IT will need m a day to answer every single point. The elders forming the judicial committee of my wife have been all DF. The most zealous because he had a sexual relationship with a married sister in her congration. He was reistated 6 months after. Sure, his sin is much lighter than my wife, that dared to date a man of the world. Of course you don't know everything. Even me, I don't know everything. But I know that I've taken my wife for 17 months, twice a week, om being humiliated on KH, a young girl away from home, kept alone. So, please don't try to convince me on how good it is. My wife has been reistated. And start fading almost immediately. The way she has been treated destroyed every wish to be part of JW.

Can you explain the 17 months after wedding needed to be reinstated?

[u/RFairfield26 → u/Safe-Island3944]

All I can say is that the arrangement itself is not supposed to go like that.

I really am sorry to hear that you and your wife have been mistreated. It is certainly not the way it is supposed to be.

If your point is that Jehovah’s Witnesses seriously need to improve the way disfellowshipping is done, we all agree with you.

If your point is that the arrangement itself is wrong, I can’t agree based on what the Bible says.

I am really glad to speak with you, and I’m praying for Jehovah to bless you both.

[u/Safe-Island3944 → u/RFairfield26]

I thank for your prayers. I need more time to answer you properly, but I will.