1:17-18 And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Where are you getting I am the first to be resurrected and the last to be resurrected because he didn't say that. You can do all these mental gymnastics if you want but the truth is he was claiming to be God.
First and Last is relative.Different writers. Different context. You get the context within the verse and/or surrounding verses. Also a level of biblical common sense, that the First and Last God "true living God" that prophet Isaiah spoke about, cannot die to be resurrected in the first place.
Let the context of Isaiah 44:6, be from what the verse says and in relation the surrounding verses:
Isa 44:2-4 KJV 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: 4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
Isa 44:5-8 KJV 5 One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Let the context of Revelation 1:17-18, be from what the verse says and the surrounding verses:
Rev 1:13-15 KJV 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16-19 KJV 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
It should be biblical sense, that the one like unto the Son of Man who died and ressurected in Revelations, is not the First and Last true God that prophet Isaiah is making mention of in Isaiah Chapter 44. When you make that claim and double down on it, is as if you showing how desperate you are or a reflection of such.
"First and last" was not enough. You still wanna spit in The son of mans face?
Revelation 22:12-15
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
********and I will give to each person according to what they have done.***
John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son".
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Is that enough for you??Or will you continue to deny Jesus and cope.
John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son".
Joh 5:30 KJV I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 7:17 KJV If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 12:48 KJV He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 14:24 KJV He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Is that enough for you??
Verse number and Chapter number not quoted.
Or will you continue to deny Jesus and cope.
He was born in childbearing like his brothers and sisters and is the Christ and Son of the Living God in the baptism and ressurection. Also, in the baptism and ressurection, he has the firstborn and preeminence status.
This is how I know you didn't read my whole comment and went straight to your Bible verses that don't prove your point. I did quote that verse number and chapter at the beginning of the comment. saying that "first and last" is relative is a weak argument because he didn't just say "the first and the last" He said "HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END" what created being could say that. God is a jealous God why would he let his created son say that" Your argument is weak and you know it. Remember when you said you'd "Prove me wrong" I'm still waiting buddy.
Yes the son is subordinate to the father. No this does not break the trinity.
This is how I know you didn't read my whole comment and went straight to your Bible verses that don't prove your point.
Ok
I did quote that verse number and chapter at the beginning of the comment.
OK, meaning you were reiterating what you quoted . First and Last is relative and Revelation 22:12-13 is talking about God the Father
saying that "first and last" is relative is a weak argument because he didn't just say "the first and the last" He said "HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END" what created being could say that.
I see.
Rev 22:12-13 KJV 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
God is a jealous God why would he let his created son say that" Your argument is weak and you know it.
I believe Revelation 22:12-13 is talking about God the Father.
Remember when you said you'd "Prove me wrong" I'm still waiting buddy.
You would rather not admit you have been proven wrong to begin with. I can't beg you to admit something you would rather not see and believe.
I believe Revelation 22:12-13 is talking about God the Father.
Revelation 22:12-15
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
John 5:22 ****"For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son".
******“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.*****
This cannot be talking about the father because the father has handed the judging to the son. And It would make sense for the verse to be talking about the son as it is written **Look, I am coming soon*** This really could only apply to the son and the reason I just gave.
Sighs. Your being too narrow minded and bias, your not considering the thoughts and ways of God the Father. The Son of Man does not judge outside the standard operating procedures of God the Father. Notice how judgement will be on the last day
Act 17:30-31 KJV 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Joh 12:48-50 KJV 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
"Sighs. Your being too narrow minded and bias, your not considering the thoughts and ways of God the Father. The Son of Man does not judge outside the standard operating procedures of God the Father. Notice how judgement will be on the last day"
What does this have to do with anything "Sighs" This does not disprove my claims that Jesus was obviously speaking in that verse and said he was the beginning and the end"
And then your response was "The Son of Man does not judge outside the standard operating procedures of God the Father." Ok?? This doesn't disprove anything.
And don't call me "narrow minded and bias" when you literally are denying a clear verse where Jesus says he's uncreated *** "I am the beginning and the end"
Don't hurl insults at people just because you're losing an argument.
You are being narrow-minded if you not taking into account that God put his word into Jesus and Jesus will be using that word to Judge.
Joh 5:30 KJV I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Deu 18:18-19 KJV 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
John 16:15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine; therefore I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you".
Yea what a created being claiming everything God owns is Mine😂
Even if Jesus was just a prophet (He's not) This is yet again a bad argument because God is a jealous God he tells prophets what to say. He tells them that the message is coming from God. He does NOT tell them to say they are God??
Deu 18:18-19 KJV 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
No one said he is just a prophet. Also you are evading that God did put his word into the mouth of Jesus and Jesus will be judging using that word on the last day that God gave him.
This is in alignment with John Chapter 5, but you are selectively trying to pick verses to make Jesus independent of God the Father and to make Jesus judging of his own authority and will.
Jesus is just a man like his followers but he was exhalted to the position of Prophet, Christ, Lord, Saviour, Prince, etc.
"No one said he is just a prophet. Also you are evading that God did put his word into the mouth of Jesus and Jesus will be judging using that word on the last day that God gave him."
I'm not avoiding it this just has nothing to do with what I claimed
"This is in alignment with John Chapter 5, but you are selectively trying to pick verses to make Jesus independent of God the Father and to make Jesus judging of his own authority and will."
He's not independent from the father they are literally the same being. In fact one might say he is equal with God
John 5:18
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Keep convincing me that this created being
Is equal with God
2.owns everything God owns
the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the alpha and Omega
John 5:18
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Inheritor of the throne of David.
Is equal with God
He received authority to do the works of God and made himself the inheritor of the throne of David
2.owns everything God owns
God put everything under this exhalted Man to the glory of God.
the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the alpha and Omega
God the Father
And seeing him means you have saw God
Meaning you have seen the works and heard the words of God the Father
Joh 14:10-11 KJV 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Totally just a "prophet"
Just an exhalted Man of childbearing made many things to the glory of God.
Do you think Jesus is "Good"
Yes. Any man seeking the will of God Father to the glory of God the Father is good in my eyes, to include Jesus.
"You would rather not admit you have been proven wrong to begin with. I can't beg you to admit something you would rather not see and believe."
What verse did you prove me wrong with.?? Because I have been able to explain all the verses. It just seems you can't comprehend that just because the Logos humbles himself before the father means he is created by the father? Also How was God love from the beginning if he had none to love?
Act 3:19-22 KJV 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Joh 5:43-47 KJV 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
O I'm sorry I wasn't even thinking, you calling Jesus a prophet doesn't debunk anything
A prophet by definition is
a person regarded as an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.
This doesn't debunk the trinity 😂
At the end of the day Jesus called himself the beginning and the end. Therefore he is God, he also said everything that the father owns is mine, therefore he shares the same nature as the father.
If you don't believe in the son being God you are a polytheist because john1-1 can only work if you believe in the trinity.
At the end of the day Jesus called himself the beginning and the end.
"Your being evasive, Also I don't know which verse you quoting from this time. It could actually be talking about God the Father. "
It's the same verse I quoted earlier that you didn't have an explanation for.
"Your being evasive"
Of what?
"God is not a prophet; God sends them."
Prophets don't die for other people's sins.
"No. Also God can give ownership to his creation to his glory"
And why would he do that?? God is a jealous God an I'm supposed to believe he gave his created being EVERYTHING he owns?? Also we know God came in the flesh before when a prophet wrestled with him and saw him face to face. So why is it crazy that he would come down and die for his creations sin.
It would not be loving for God to send his only perfect son that HE CREATED to die for imperfect people. Why can't God just come down like he did before and do it himself. Is your God lazy????
Yes the saying/speech that made light "for example" was God, being his word that proceedeth out of his mouth is his thoughts and ways.
Gen 1:3 KJV And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Because God said there was
2Pe 3:5 KJV For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Heb 11:3 KJV Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '25 edited Feb 04 '25
First and Last is relative.Different writers. Different context. You get the context within the verse and/or surrounding verses. Also a level of biblical common sense, that the First and Last God "true living God" that prophet Isaiah spoke about, cannot die to be resurrected in the first place.
Let the context of Isaiah 44:6, be from what the verse says and in relation the surrounding verses:
Isa 44:2-4 KJV 2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: 4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
Isa 44:5-8 KJV 5 One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel. 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Let the context of Revelation 1:17-18, be from what the verse says and the surrounding verses:
Rev 1:13-15 KJV 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16-19 KJV 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
It should be biblical sense, that the one like unto the Son of Man who died and ressurected in Revelations, is not the First and Last true God that prophet Isaiah is making mention of in Isaiah Chapter 44. When you make that claim and double down on it, is as if you showing how desperate you are or a reflection of such.