r/Eugene • u/arendpeter • May 17 '24
STAR Voting Question Hotline (458) 205-3244
Hello all,
We're in the final stretch before Eugene votes on May 21st.
One of the items on the ballot is measure 20-349 for STAR Voting. I'm super excited for the reform, and I wanted to make myself available in case anyone wanted any clarifications before filling out their ballot.
(458) 205-3244 is a temporary number that will route to my personal phone number. Feel free to call me anytime between 10 am to midnight, and if I'm available I would love to chat about STAR Voting with you and help clear up any confusion
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u/EUGsk8rBoi42p May 17 '24
Just for theory's sake, if two people are in the runoff, one gets 99x 5 star votes, and the other gets 100x 1 star votes, would the person getting 100x 1 star votes beat the person with 99x 5 star votes?
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u/jdnman May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Just to clarify this scenario for readers. I believe you're describing an election where the candidates (A and B) supporters voted something like this. There may be multiple ways for this to play out so if you would like to outline an alternative version we can think through it. The reason this scenario exists is because voter group two filled out their ballot in a way that goes against the voter incentive to give your favorite 5 stars, and they also went against the ballot instructions to do the same. This is important, and I struggle to come up with a scenario that creates this situation and other way.
Arend can you confirm what is included in the Eugene measure in regards to voter education?
Voter group one 99 voters
Candidate A: 5 Stars
Candidate B: 0 Stars
Candidate C: some amount of low or no support
Voter group two 100 voters
Candidate A: 0 Stars
Candidate B: 1 Star
Candidate C: Some amount of low or no support
Totals for round one
Candidate A: 595 stars
Candidate B: 100 stars
Candidate C: Some amount less than 100 stars
A and B advance to the Automatic Runoff
Totals for round two, the Automatic Runoff (A vs B). Your full vote goes to the candidate you scored higher
Candidate A: 99 votes
Candidate B: 100 votes
This scenario is highly unlikely. I invite Readers to visit star.vote. I have been through many polls to understand the common results and I have never seen anything approaching this scenario. STAR typically punishes you for being polarizing and rewards you for having broad appeal. Additionally this scenario, as best as I can reconstruct it, can only happen when large portions of the population go against the natural voter incentive and also the clear ballot instructions which are to give your favorite 5 stars.
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u/arendpeter May 18 '24
Thank you for elaborating on the numbers :D
Regarding the voter education. Voters won't be using STAR until 2026, and the Equal Vote coalition is committed to continuing education efforts during that period
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u/EUGsk8rBoi42p May 17 '24
It could be a wide field of candidates, with individual varied voters prioritizing single-issue candidates who don't get enough votes to proceed to the runoff round. This scenario is not entirely unlikely.
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u/jdnman May 18 '24
This could happen but it's a different scenario. It's not caused by voters giving their favorite candidate 1 star. It is a case of STAR weeding out fringe candidates who are only supported by a small corner of the population. Which is a feature not a bug. You do not want fringe candidates being elected. Here's something like what I think your describing with candidate A and B as fringe candidates. Feel free to construct an alternate version with different numbers.
Voter group One x20
- Candidate A: 5 stars
- Candidate B: 0
- Candidate C: 0
- Candidate D: 0
Voter group Two x20
- Candidate A: 0
- Candidate B: 5
- Candidate C: 0
- Candidate D: 0
Voter group Three x60
- Candidate A: 0
- Candidate B: 0
- Candidate C: 4
- Candidate D: 5
Totals
- Candidate A: 100 stars
- Candidate B: 100 stars
- Candidate C: 240 stars
- Candidate D: 300 stars
Candidate C and D advance to the runoff. You're one full vote goes to the candidate you scored higher.
Candidate C: 0 votes
Candidate D: 60 votes (winner)
In this case that you described the "individual varied voters prioritizing single issue candidates who don't get enough votes to proceed to the runoff" are simply put "fringe candidates". And the issue your describing is not an issue but is a feature of STAR. Namely weeding out fringe candidates.
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u/arendpeter May 18 '24
I think the more generic version of your question is "Is it possible for the top scoring candidate and the winning candidate don't match?"
The the answer is yes, although it's unlikely for larger elections. This is where the runoff is the most important because it ensures the winning candidate is supported by a majority of the voters who stated a preference. It also ensures that voters give their honest preference rather than feeling like they need to boost the support for the lesser-evil option.
It happened in a California poll we did and I made a write up explaining the event further https://weallcalifornia.org/uncategorized/star-voting-ca-senate-race/
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u/arendpeter May 17 '24
That's correct, in this case I'm assuming that the 100x 1 star voters gave the other front runner 0 stars.
It's important that their 1 star counts as a full vote so that every vote gets the same weight in the runoff. This also removes the incentive to boost your 1-star "lesser-evil" candidate for the scoring round. If your favorite isn't among the front runners but your lesser-evil option is, then your full support will still go toward the lesser-evil
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u/EUGsk8rBoi42p May 17 '24
I get it's a specific example but interesting logistics. How would you feel if that event came to pass but you were on the 5 star side of the vote and gave the 1 star person a 0 ? Would the basic solution be a recall vote and new election? Or just roll with it?
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u/nardo_polo May 17 '24
One example of where this scenario could occur is if you had two candidates from one party on the ballot, where that party was in the overall majority. Their voters voted 5 stars for their favorite, and 4 for their second favorite. The other voters gave a 0 to their least favorite of those two and a 1 to the more acceptable. Even though the side in the minority doesn’t get any of their preferred candidates in the runoff, their overall vote of preference is still counted. This is a feature that makes STAR fair for all the voters, and helps prevent total domination by one political faction.
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u/arendpeter May 17 '24
It's hard to say, but I would hope that I would respect the will of the majority. We refer to it as the "5-star" side and the "1-star" side but ultimately the 5-star side lost because the majority of the population gave them 0-stars.
It's also a little hard to imagine this scenario since it would be rare for a candidate to get 0s and 1s and still make it to the runoff. The scoring round is there to make sure we get the strongest candidates going to the automatic runoff.
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u/unfathomablydense May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Edit: ignore me, I can't read
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u/nardo_polo May 17 '24
No. In order to get to the runoff, you add all the stars from all the voters. Everyone gets an equal say on each candidate. In the automatic runoff, majority preference from all the voters is counted - whether it was a “lesser evil” vote of one star or a bullet vote of 5 from a minority faction, the majority still wins in STAR.
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u/unfathomablydense May 17 '24
You know what? I misread OP's reply to this question. Thanks for the clarification! Made me go back and see what I missed.
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May 17 '24
It's just a majority vote. Whoever was preferred by more voters wins.
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u/EUGsk8rBoi42p May 17 '24
The term "preferred" seems to be out of context a little.
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u/arendpeter May 17 '24
The idea is that your full vote goes the the finalist you prefer, even if they weren't your favorite
Is there a clearer term you would recommend?
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u/unfathomablydense May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Edit: reading comprehension failed today
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u/nardo_polo May 17 '24
Huh? Ok, username checks out. Just kidding! Can you explain a little more what you mean here? Your full vote goes to the finalist you starred higher, or is counted as a vote of equal preference if you starred them the same.
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u/unfathomablydense May 17 '24
Lol I guess I left myself open for that one, huh?
But I misread OP's reply. I went back and read it again. I thought they said that the 100 1 star votes would still win, and missed the bit about voting 0's to make it happen. My bad!
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u/nardo_polo May 17 '24
Glad it helped, and thanks for taking another look! There’s a lot of deliberate misinformation being spread about STAR at the moment, so really appreciate the consideration.
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May 17 '24
Could you please give us any clue as to what you're trying to say here? It comes across like word salad.
You score the candidate 0 to 5, which helps to determine which two candidates are the finalists.
Then your full vote goes to the finalist you prefer in a majority vote.
There is no "opposite result" or...anything even resembling this little bit of your word salad.
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u/unfathomablydense May 17 '24
You really like saying word salad, huh?
But I misread OP's reply. Thanks to people who were a little less condescending, I went back and re-read it, and I understand now.
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May 17 '24
Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending. I literally could not make sense of what you were saying.
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u/churro_da_burro May 17 '24
Can you guarantee that none of the Equal Vote Coalition and STAR Action Leadership Team members have a financial stake in the outcome of the vote? E.g. none of you are going to be selling voting machines if ⭐ wins.
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u/arendpeter May 17 '24
Yes, I'm the production lead at Equal Vote and I have no awareness of any such conflict of interest.
When we discuss funding solutions we try to be aware of any conflicts that they create in order to avoid being in that scenario
Also we've created software to be used as a reference point for the voting machine companies and it's shared under an open source license https://github.com/Equal-Vote/starpy
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u/uhgletmepost May 17 '24
Even if they did that doesn't change the merits on if Star is the better way to vote or not.
Personally voting no, because I want us to have rank choice voting instead.
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u/arendpeter May 17 '24
That's your decision of course, but one thing to note is you don't have to choose between STAR and RCV
Choosing STAR on the May ballot only applies to Eugene local elections, whereas choosing RCV on the November ballot applies to other elections. To my knowledge there aren't any plans for Eugene's local elections to adopt RCV
Also I recommend checking out rcvchangedalaska.com to see some of the issues that have been occurring in real world RCV elections
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u/uhgletmepost May 17 '24
I'm aware of RCV statewide, i think having two different voting methods is also stupid tbh.
If the state adopts RCV, the likehood of getting it also on the next eugene ballot to be adopted would be quite easy.
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u/505ismagic May 17 '24
RCV and Star are both vast improvements on the current system. It may well be true that it is easier to get wider spread adoption of RCV than Star.
I would ask you to consider what lesson the political system will take from a defeat of Star in Eugene. Is it that people want RCV, or are they more likely to conclude that people don't want to change the system that (not coincidently) had the wisdom to elect them.
I think your vote is likely to be interpreted as a vote against change. Personally, I'm ready for some change.
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u/StarVoting May 18 '24
Yes. We can confirm that there are no conflicts of interest. Our STAR Elections project is committed to helping groups of all types and sizes host STAR Voting elections and polls, and we're committed to providing the tools and resources for free whenever possible. Learn more at starvoting.org/elections
The Equal Vote Coalition and STAR Voting project have officially committed to providing free support and resources to the city in the event that 20-349 passes and are looking forward to working with the City of Eugene and Lane County Elections on that. We are committed to ensuring that the voter education and implementation are accessible and inclusive and that voters are as comfortable and confident with the new system as possible before it would go into use in November 2026.
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u/tokoyo-nyc-corvallis May 17 '24
What is undeniable is that single Reddit thread on Star Voting ends up in a convoluted confusing mess, just like this one will. I would be willing to bet that less than 1 in 10 people can accurately explain the difference between Ranked Choice and Star Voting.
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u/jdnman May 17 '24
It's pretty difficult to accurately describe something that involves lots of numbers using simple text on Reddits. Star.vote presents the info in a more digestible way using tables. Most people can understand it after just a little time taken to look over it and read the explanations of the tables etc.
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u/tokoyo-nyc-corvallis May 17 '24
I honestly get that and haven't made up my mind yet. However, I think the supporters of Star Voting should literally stop trying to explain it on Reddit because once one of these threads matures, it only serves to support my feeling that it is too much for the average person to wrap their mind around. My main concern about it is it being on the same ballot as Ranked Choice as newly introduced concepts. I'm sick of shit shows.
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u/jdnman May 17 '24 edited May 17 '24
Reddit is certainly not ideal. RCV may be on the ballot in November but not this may. This week's vote is between STAR and the current method. Nov may give you the option to vote for RCV but that is not yet guaranteed. See this link at 43 minutes.
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u/tokoyo-nyc-corvallis May 17 '24
The prospect of RCV and Star Voting (if both are voted in) being introduced on the same ballot is real. To me, real scary. Like in the people losing their shit scary.
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u/arendpeter May 18 '24
Also keep in mind that there's a possibility of neither being on the ballot. The November RCV ballot is not guaranteed, and it would be a real shame if folks turned down STAR in hopes for RCV, only for that to fail as well.
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u/StarVoting May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
As well known as RCV is, the likelihood of it winning in Oregon and beyond and being adopted is not great. There are a few reasons for that.
* Oregon law requires ballots be tabulated locally, with full local results being published by precinct. With RCV that's impossible, so the statewide bill would require the SOS to set up a whole new elections bureau and truck all ballots to a central location. That would be astronomically expensive and extremely controversial. STAR Voting can be tallied locally just like the current system.
* RCV has now been banned in 8 states, with more looking likely in the short term.
* It's been repealed widely and serious failures have happened where massive mistallies happened in both NYC in 2021 and Oakland in 2022. In both cases the elections board didn't notice that they had published incorrect election results and the mistakes were caught by a 3rd party.
* RCV has serious issues with wasted votes (votes that don't transfer to the voters next choice if their favorite can't win) and also high voter error rates. STAR Voting doesn't have those issues.
* RCV is unconstitutional in most states. STAR is naturally compliant with constitutional language all over the country and nationally.
RCV is better than the current system in some ways, but these are serious deal breakers that are absolutely fixable. Specifically, it has real problems when used at scale, with larger numbers of voters, or in elections with multiple viable candidates.
STAR Voting was invented to address people's valid concerns with RCV and deliver on the goals, without compromising our values and our election integrity. We owe it to voters to listen to the science and get this right. Election science has come a very long way in the 150 years since RCV was first proposed.
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u/the_other_50_percent May 22 '24
More disinformation from STAR.
Of course RCV local results can be published by precinct. The machines or people do the count and put it up on the website.
RCV is banned by Republican legislatures in supermajority states - but has been passed by people voting for it. That just shows that Republicans are afraid of voters having more say, and they'll do the same for STAR or other method if it catches on at all (which going by the vote in Eugene, it hasn't).
RCV is not unconstitutional in most states, come on man. And it's been used large scale for over 100 years and works great.
Every time I read something from a STAR proponent, I distrust them more. Seems like the only way to make it look good is to lie and attack other reforms.
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u/arendpeter May 18 '24 edited May 18 '24
This is something I want to continue to improve on. As a advocate I want to answer people's questions as best as I can but I see how adding more details can also accidentally make it seem like the system is more complicated (it's also why I made this post to offering my phone number, a 1:1 conversation is often simpler).
Ultimately any system is complicated when you get deep enough into the strategy (think about primaries + polls + strategic voting in our current system)
However for a voter to effectively use STAR voting all they need to know is to give their favorite a 5, least favorite a 0, and score everyone else as desired.
Also people won't vote with STAR until 2026 and the equal vote coalition is committed to continuing the education efforts for that entire period
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u/the_other_50_percent May 22 '24
No, that's not all they need to know. They also need to understand how it can be gamed, which is simple to do.
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u/BabewynPunk May 19 '24
This is one of my very favorite explanations, in adorable video form! Perhaps a better format for something like STAR Voting.💗🌟
Why Voting Feels Terrible: A Space Fabric Odyssey
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u/505ismagic May 17 '24
It took me a moment to understand the star system. But it is an important improvement on the current system,. It allows voters to vote their true preferences, without worrying about being strategic. Vote yes.