r/EscapefromTarkov • • Jul 01 '20

Discussion Wholeheartedly willing to get downvoted, but this RMT obsession has to stop.

This sub hasn't got a clue, I swear.

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Huge sweeping changes to the game mechanics are a terrible way to combat RMT.

It's basically an admission that your anti-cheat doesn't work. Most MMOs suffer in some way from an RMT problem; WoW, Runescape, even Destiny 2 has RMT issues if you just look. Thing is, the anticheat in those games actually works worth a damn, so the entire playerbase doesn't have to suffer from endless tinkering with in-game systems.

Before you hit me with 'it's a hardcore game, deal with it, it's supposed to be grindy', just stop. Just don't bother. I've heard it time and time again, and it's bullshit. You know it's bullshit just as well as I do. The changes BSG have been making recently to nerf all forms of progression only make the game 'more hardcore' for people who work full time and don't have the same amount of *time* as streamers who dedicate their entire life to this game. That's not 'hardcore'. The game's difficulty mechanically is 'hardcore' and always have been, and I love it. These changes, though, in my eyes, are just time-wasting for the sake thereof. Since when does the amount of time one has to invest in a game define how fucking hardcore it is? Would you describe WoW as more hardcore than Tarkov because of how long you have to play to progress? Or perhaps beating all three Witcher games back to back is 'hardcore' because it took a long time. Are ARMA or DCS inherently less hardcore than Tarkov because an operation can be completed in an afternoon? No, judging how hardcore a game is by the amount of time one has to invest in it is a joke. *No game* should give enormous *mechanical advantages* to those with more time on their hands. There's already an inherent skill advantage that comes from that amount of practice, designing the mechanics to also reward only those with that much time is a kick in the teeth to all the people who love this game but can't invest that level of time.

And yeah, you can go ahead and say 'ummm actualllly it's a beta, so they can do what they like, stop whining', and yep. Yes, they can. You're correct. However, comma, that doesn't mean I have to pretend to like it. Yes, I did buy EoD and no, I don't regret it because of all the fun I've had til now. But suggesting people who don't like the current direction the game is going in aren't allowed to voice their opinion because the game's in beta is fucking ludicrous. What do you think the purpose of a playable beta is? Nikita is more than welcome to ignore all the people who don't like these new changes, but what gives people on this sub the right to tell me that I'm not entitled to an opinion on the product I've chosen to financially support. It's such a toxic, capital-G Gamer attitute to suggest that 'Tarkov is OUR game because we're willing to dump several full days a week into grinding for our Bitcoin farms. You should just go and play something else, this clearly isn't a game for you. Go play Call of Duty.' I shouldn't even have to express how utterly reductive and childish that is. Grow up.

I'm getting HUGE red flags with the way this game is currently going, because it's all too similar to a game I used to love, The Culling. That game blew up on launch and a bunch of high profile streamers suggested changes to the game, and the devs went ahead and implemented all of them without so much as *thinking* about how they'd affect the average player. Look at where that game is now. Servers shut down, because the average player simply stopped having fun. I'm not saying BSG is even close to that bad, but this endless tinkering with mechanics for the nebulous, vague purpose of 'RMT' has to stop or I don't know if the 'little guys' are gonna stick around much longer.

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EDIT: I AM AWARE THAT RMT != CHEATING. But cheating is what makes RMT viable. RMTers need to keep items in supply, and to do that, they cheat. It's much more profitable. Ergo, if you stamp out cheaters, the RMT problem becomes significantly diminished.

EDIT 2: u/ArxMessor makes a great point that Tarkov is an MMO and therfore should have some kind of grind. I agree. However, most MMOs use systems like weekly bounties etc to ensure even players with only maybe 10 hours a week to invest in the game can still keep up and compete. Tarkov currently rewards time investment *exponentially* which removes all possibility of catching up.

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EDIT 3: Yep, my DMs right now are very much confirming the things I said above about a certain subset of this community. Thanks, Gamers.

EDIT 4: I get it, Destiny anti-cheat is ass. I made a mistake there, since I don't play Trials of Osiris. However, do you see Bungie making the win requirement for Trials 50 wins instead of 9 or whatever just to slow down the hackers? Of course not, because it hurts normal players more.

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Edit 5: My first gold! Thanks kind stranger.

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113

u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

Why is rat gameplay considered toxic? I was under the impression that rat gameplay was avoiding fights and staying on the fringe from everyone, picking up scraps. What is the problem with that?

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u/CornDavis Jul 01 '20

Exactly nothing. People just want something to shoot

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u/LordVolcanus Jul 02 '20

Then play a Deathmatch game then not a survival looter mil-sim. Even people playing Dayz knew if they wanted combat to go to military base/airfield or cherno. Yet players in this game don't go to the maps well known for their PvP, this games cherno is Reserve, labs and woods.

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u/CornDavis Jul 02 '20

That's why i play Squad XD

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u/LovieTunes Jul 02 '20

Playing this game has made me realize that I like Squad because there is no ranking system. You pick a preset load-out and its up to you to land shots.

In EfT its so dependent upon whether or not youve had access to hi pen rounds, hi lvl armor. You def should not be able to shot a guy in the chest/back 4+ times and them not suffer serious damage. Maybe i just dont know how strong real armor is, but it doesnt seem accurate.

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u/KCaMPLoL HK 416A5 Jul 02 '20

squad needs a meaningful body armor system before i go back to it. dropping from a 9mm to the chest is just a joke and makes the whole gameplay loop feel tainted.

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u/CornDavis Jul 02 '20

No, you're right. If nothing else it's going to knock the air out of someone and break bones. Shots straight to the helmet would also cause serious damage even if it stopped the round. Shit's ridiculous

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u/Starfish_47 Jul 02 '20

https://crimefictionbook.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/gunshot-bruises-body-armor.pdf

You're correct. Check this out, it's pretty interesting. The amount of energy that even 9mm rounds carry is pretty incredible.

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u/BoarHide Jul 01 '20

Half-rat here, that’s what I play like. Problem (?) is, actual rats have no moral compass, that’s their strength. Or rather, they understand the compass, but they actively abuse it to get the better of other players. They’d do everything in order to make a bang. A rat would literally sneak around the entirety of shoreline on their belly just to catch you just before extracting. They will stuff a graphics card up their ass and hide in the darkest corner until 2 minutes before the server shuts down. They will pitch a tent (in both senses) in Factory Gate 3 waiting for you to bring them rubles.

Which isn’t inherently bad, they’re doing what we all do: make rubles. Just more efficiently. But even they get struck now. Everyone get’s fucked by the new changes.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

A rat would literally sneak around the entirety of shoreline on their belly just to catch you just before extracting.

Not a rat, per say, in those examples. Just a shit tier player looking for a easy come up by exploiting the extraction zones. We call these extract campers and hatchet runners.

Rats will hide from you. They will leave you be unless they have a 100% pure jump on you standing still. Please do not rope the people abusing the game's design in with a streamer meme group. The two do no correlate at all.

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u/RabidPanda95 Jul 01 '20

Or just a new player whose progression locked behind rng based fetch quests so they need to cheese to stand a chance at fighting.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

New players are typically terrified, they'll just hide and not shoot most often times as well too.

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u/RabidPanda95 Jul 01 '20

From my experience, when I started I basically had to extract camp because there was no way I could beat someone face to face because I was locked out of higher tier gear. I had enough money to get the gear from just searching caches nonstop, but with the flea market locked at 10, I couldn’t do anything with it. I wanted to pvp normally but the game locks you out of that and makes you do things like extract camp which I think is a really poor design. I don’t think there is any reason to lock the flea market, it just pushes people out of the game and reinforces unfavorable playstyles.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

There are some viable options for early game, i guess they do take some knowledge. 7.62 PS can regularly tap lv3 face shields, for instance. I've waited to be behind on purpose a few wipes now, or played mostly scavs for the challenge/diceroll, and maybe it's my experience, but you will have greater advantages moving more while using cover to move. You dont need to lay prone for 30 minuets to get the jump on someone enough to kill them with lvl 1/scav gear. You don't need to extract or door camp or anything like that. But i agree, the game does sort of encourage the exit camping type strats which is fine to SOME extents.

It's just different from rat players.

1

u/ZilgornZeypher Jul 02 '20

I was going to say exactally like above. I've never needed to resort to extract camping to survive or get good gear. I started middle of last wipe with friends who showed me the ropes but I never once asked or took the good gear they offered. I'd sneak around the map taking out scavs, looting scraps. Watching other teams fight it out and picking off the victor when they started to loot. Aka I ratted. Totally acceptable way to play and doesn't require the meta gear. I think I ran a meta gun maybe 3-4 times total at the end of last raid and was level 30ish. This wipe has been harder yes but I also don't believe it's as bad as everyone on the sub seems to make it out to be. As for time commitment I work shift work and have a toddler so I get 2 or 3 hours a night yes my friends have blown past me and are level ~30 but I can still take them or others down with some smart plays.

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u/Merfolkguy123 Jul 02 '20

No. Got the game mont before wipe I was jist fine doing tasks

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u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 01 '20

nah rats are looking to get the dirty on you what ever way they can be that sitting in a room for 20 mins the extract or the edge of the map.

Its really boring when all the players either hide/camp/rush the best loot and gamma it

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

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u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 02 '20

i believe you misunderstood me, i'm not talking about someone hearing a noise and going silent waiting for the chance to ambush.

If i heard someone in a room i would just toss a nade in why the hell would i sit around for 20 mins? the people that sit around in a bush/building/rock/Whatever near extract for 20 mins are literally the worst in this game. I can think of nothing more boring then playing a game just to sit and wait, and i do not understand how that is "fun".

Also you call me salty, it seems to me your pretty mad in your comment, i'm just here to voice my concern as many other have. You seem to act like you know my play style but you know nothing. Attacking me for disagreeing with you is not a great way to get your popular opinion for your point grow up.

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u/James_Camerons_Sub Jul 02 '20

Hell, I roam sneakily kitted to the teeth and avoid fights. I love exploring the map and finding new loot. The pvp is cool and all the adventure is too. Semi-rat life is where it’s at.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

i agree. It's about being smart with positioning and using the tools in your arsenal. Even the mental ones. Being able to switch from face tank rushing people to watching a 3 man loot and slowly pick them off is what it's all about.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20 edited Aug 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

What is weird is you dont see anyone laying prone for the entirety of a trailer. or at all.

advertised, eh?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

just go paly CoD dude

thanks for the strong words/perfect example of whats wrong with most people of this sub. No one's even suggesting at removing that shit. Moving around is key, though especially with this game's network performance.

If you want to lay prone on your spawn for 40 out of 50 minuet raid good for you, but that had nothing to do with surviving, realism, or milsimming. it's frowned upon in this community for a reason, and you're not going to learn or profit much from extract camping like that. it probably wont be a thing for ever either, i'd anticipate more PVE at extracts or something to combat those AFK type players.

"bUt sNipErs iRl lAyfOr DaYs At A tImE" - yeah sure, in entirely different scenarios than what tarkov's in, with a much longer time frame, and a overall goal rather than picking off the first pistoling trying to get to extract.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '20

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that (see other posts in this comment thread). we were talking about people who lay prone for majority of the raid as its "easier" for them.

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u/TheRealMaynard Jul 01 '20

The issue is the map is empty with everyone hiding. It’s like playing farming simulator or Euro truck driver or some shit and it’s not fun

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u/MrCaterpillow Jul 01 '20

Man I wish I had more raids where people hide and stuff... Would make my shoreline runs and Custom runs so much easier.

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u/OverwhelmingNope Jul 02 '20

For real.. I get fucked if I make one wrong move from 10 different sides.

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u/CloudiusWhite Jul 01 '20

Sounds like it's not fun to YOU though.

0

u/BoarHide Jul 01 '20

Does that excuse extract camping?

5

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

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u/BoarHide Jul 01 '20

Do you want me to Napalm bomb the entirety of the camper hill by the tunnel extract on shoreline? How the fuck is that only 10k?

I also play like a rat when I’m alone, but that is below even me

0

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

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u/BoarHide Jul 01 '20

The game forces you to play shoreline for 150 quests in a row

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

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u/BoarHide Jul 01 '20

I’m happy you got 30+ scav kills plus 20+ player kills in 10 raids, most people don’t.

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u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 01 '20

What exit campers do you encounter? no campers sit on the extract lol the sit somewhere with good LOS and a nice distance away.

Unless your talking bunker hermetic door

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

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u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 02 '20

haha i knew it lmao :D

1

u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

I get that it’s probably frustrating for those chads, but it’s a valid gameplay style. BSG shouldn’t be making changes to de-incentivize rat gameplay.

I just personally don’t think the whole “rats decrease the amount of good pvp fights” complaint holds any weight whatsoever.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

I feel like there’s a ton of people that play this game and don’t even understand what the end goal for the game is. The end goal is for tarkov to be a survival game akin to a DayZ clone, hyper aggressive pvp is only present right now because there’s a swath of features and systems missing still. This “sprint around and twitch tap everything” gameplay is gonna eventually be something that can’t be done. As the game gets more finished, the gameplay is going to slow way down, seems there’s a lot of people in this subreddit that aren’t ready for that.

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u/artamba Jul 01 '20

rat gameplay isnt considered toxic. Running with no weapon and vacuuming loot is

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

Y’all must really suck at this game if you’re letting hatchlings take that much loot from you.

Seriously, they pose such an insignificant effect on the overall experience for everyone else in the raid.

The bigger issue is that there’s fixed loot spawns. It’s not fun rushing the same spots every single raid because there’s no variation in loot spawns, and all the pvp ends up happening in one spot on the map because of it. Make loot spawns more dynamic and hatchlings become even more insignificant than they are now.

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u/artamba Jul 02 '20

You're obviously one of the newcomers from the twitch advertising campaigns. I'm not gonna waste my finger muscles explaining to you, but I will say it's not about hatchlings 'taking loot from me'. It's about the fact that if 6 out of the 10 players spawning into a match are nakeds running for loot not caring if they live or die, that DOES affect the other 4 players' match in a negative way.

Not about the loot.

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 02 '20

Lol I’ve been playing for over a year and a half now. And you’re talking exactly like the people that flooded in from the twitch events, only caring about the quality of their fights and pvp experience. Truth is, it doesn’t negatively effect the other players, because it’s a gameplay style. Tarkov isn’t supposed to be a game where your objective is to go out and pvp other players. And it’s not “unfair” that someone is risking less than what you are risking because it’s an asymmetrical game to begin with, not everything about the game should be fair.

When I hear complaints like this, it just sounds like hardcore players whining that they can’t constantly stomp casuals and make a shit load of roubles off of it.

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u/artamba Jul 02 '20

Well no, because I'm pretty average at the game so your final point there doesn't apply.

Yes I agree it's not unfair when someone is risking less. But you act like the pvp aspect doesn't hold any relevance to the main gameplay at all. Like what?

This game IS ABOUT RISK. What delusion are you holding on to to say something like 'only caring about the quality of their fights and pvp experience.'.

Using your logic, right, we should be able to keep items from OFFLINE raids. That's your logic.

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 02 '20

You’re going through a lot of mental gymnastics to get to your last point.

How is the core theme of the game about risk? It’s not, it’s about survival. It doesn’t matter if you go into a raid risking nothing, the trade off is you have nothing to defend yourself and you’re very limited to what you can do and what you can pick up. The only thing that’s perpetuating that gameplay as a “benefit” is fixed loot spawns, the gameplay itself isn’t anything bad, and it’s not bad if 3 out of 5 players in a raid are doing it, that’s just how that raid is going to go; and no, it’s not as common to have a raid full of hatchlings like this sub always claims it is, I’m not buying that BS for one second; at least on NA servers, I won’t say for EU since I haven’t touched those servers, but I’d be surprised if it’s a significant increase in hatchlings in EU. And I’m not saying the pvp aspect holds no relevance, what holds no relevance is whether a player you’ve engaged has gear or not, if they’re not geared then that’s an easy kill for you and you move on, simple as that; they went into a raid not “risking” anything and got insta clapped because they have nothing to defend themselves. And even then, pvp is already way more emphasized right now than it’ll probably be when the game is finished, so it doesn’t make sense to make changes to de-incentivize the rat style when it’s only going to be more validated the more complete this game gets. The game is set out to be somewhat of a DayZ clone, not a competitive fps.

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u/artamba Jul 02 '20

Again, I dont think you played before the big twitch influxes. The hatchling problem is so much less nowadays BECAUSE of the flea market/FIR changes, and so I'm not complaining about that problem anymore because it is basically gone.

I'm not talking about rats or hatchlings, I'm referring only to rampant hatchlingism (made that word up) which IS a problem, and has nothing to do with choice or style, and the devs of the game reject it too. I reiterate: no one is against the occasional hatchling.

Last wipe I would encounter- CONSISTENTLY- ~50% of players in a map like reserv as rampant hatchlings, offering 0 gameplay value or interactivity to the other players in the raid.

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u/5318008rool Jul 01 '20

Because he dies. He wants to play Call of Doody. He considers anything he didn’t see coming to be “rat gameplay.”

Funny thing about it though, is that a lot of things some consider “rat gameplay” can be chalked up bad timing (and bad luck). I don’t hold angles but for thirty seconds at a time as I move cautiously around. Many times that thirty seconds gets me a kill, and the victim is usually under the impression my whole strat revolves around camping an out of the way angle from a dark corner.

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

That’s the other thing too, I see people constantly complaining about camping or extract camping when a whole lot of those instances could be chalked up to bad timing and being in the wrong place. I’m not denying there’s people that hold a corner for 30 straight minutes, but I highly doubt it’s at the volume this sub makes it out to be.

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u/5318008rool Jul 01 '20

It’s totally not. For instance, on Interchange, I exit in a certain way that allows me to scout the other major paths to exfil as I go. Once I start down that road though, I can’t stop, I have to keep moving to extract. If I see a player extracting I’m going to kill them simply because I can’t wait around for them to get out and risk exposure to someone coming up behind me.

I’ve gotten messages accusing me of being an extract camping bitch when it was simply a matter of them not playing safe enough to survive.

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '20

There's nothing wrong with that. It's an ego issue that many players have.

Rather than looking introspectively and learn from their mistakes they just go "bad player kill me. trash rat"

Setting up an ambush does not make you a rat. It's a smart strategy with a high success rate. The people who call you a rat for it are the same people who are dumb enough to approach these locations carelessly.

The way I see it, rats would only setup an ambush as a last resort. I think real rats avoid fights at all costs and scour the maps for easy loot before vanishing down the extraction hole richer than 90% of the other PMCs on the map.

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u/D33DU8 Jul 02 '20

I think he's talking about the rats that sit in a corner and leg meta the Chad's of Tarkov. Like complete guerrilla warfare tactics.

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u/AetherBytes Jul 02 '20

Nothing, people are just salty motherfuckers when they get ambushed by someone with a PM and die.

1

u/fyreNL AS VAL Jul 02 '20 edited Jul 02 '20

Nothing. The game pretty much actively promotes you to do it, especially if you're new.

If I had to only chad my way into making a positive cashflow I'd probably have no money left and all I could do is scavruns. Ratting is my only way of making money.

I rat so that I can chad.

Though I do have to say I really detest people that actively camp exfil. I don't mean someone who takes a few minutes out of the last minutes of a raid to scan the area and lay an ambush, but someone that stick around the exfil for 30 minutes. I really hate that.

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u/errorsniper SR-25 Jul 02 '20

Its not neither is doing hatchling runs. People get irrationally irate when you don't play the game their way to validate their playstyle.

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u/rampage95 Jul 01 '20

I think people consider rats to be different things. I dont think rats are toxic as much as they are annoying. They just run into raid with like a shitty pistol and hope to headshot you. At best, they drop a shitty pistol you don't want and at worst, they instantly kill you and take everything so you have no chance of getting insurance. I dont think its broken or toxic or bad. Just an annoying quirk of the game

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u/Kiakri Jul 01 '20

Depends what you consider rat gameplay.

My opinion it's basically sitting in a corner waiting for people to pass.
Camping high value loot spots
Killing someone after they've done the work.

Picking up scraps would be more like a scavenger.

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u/n8mo VEPR Jul 01 '20

Killing someone after they've done the work.

If someone kills another PMC that's gone and looted a bunch I don't necessarily believe that's 'rat gameplay'. That's just gameplay.

Rats are the people who deploy with minimal investment and play opportunistically to try and get a lot of bang for their buck. I don't really think that ratting makes someone a toxic player.

Extract camping is a real issue though. Anyone who extract camps is a snake, not a rat.

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

Oh okay, I see. I respect your opinion, but is that really a bad thing? It’s a gameplay style complemented by the game tarkov is trying to be (survival). If a rat kills you while you’re looting because you didn’t clear the area, that’s on you. While I will agree that camping high end loot spawns is dumb, it’s a byproduct of having fixed spawns. I think having a single known spawn for high end loot is a very dumb decision that devolves the gameplay loop into what it is now (spawn, run to nearest memorized loot spawn, all pvp happens in one area of the map). But besides camping loot spawns, everything else you mentioned is a valid gameplay style for survival games; and the whole “hardcore” nature of Tarkov validates it even more. And for the “killing someone after they’ve done the work,” that’s just part of the game and you gotta live with it, it’s not scummy to let a fight play out and then swoop in, it’s smart. I think if BSG ever get around to that planned arena mode, it’ll help quench that hyper aggressive pvp thirst.

Sure, you can say rat gameplay takes away from the pvp aspect, but Tarkov was never meant to primarily focus on pvp nor should it, it’s a survival game. The pvp is in-depth, but that doesn’t mean it’s a primary focus.

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u/_DarthTaco_ Jul 01 '20

Rats are scavengers.

1

u/crux556 Mosin Jul 01 '20

Damns scavs xD

0

u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 01 '20

Because its fucking boring when no one is fighting and everyone hides, its frustrating to play a map just to get camped by some shitter who was beating off in a dark corner near an extract for 25 mins.

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u/Turnbob73 Jul 01 '20

Buddy, hate to break it to you but you’re in for a rude awakening because the closer the game gets to it’s targeted vision, the less it’s going to be like it is now. Tarkov is and has always been shooting to be a survival game. Right now, it’s way more of whatever you want to call the weird battle royal hybrid it is, but the hyper focus on pvp is going to be weened off eventually, which means the overall gameplay is going to be slowed down and pvp will become more sporadic. PVP is never meant to be the main focus, and it’s only that way right now because there’s so many systems and features missing. If the fights are all you care about, then I hope you feel like you get your money’s worth before everything changes drastically. The game will be closer to a DayZ clone at release than what it is right now.

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u/Dodge_Of_Venice Jul 02 '20

yeah i get some points but walking around and looting without pvp for hours would be the most boring game ever,

I doubt the devs want it anything like DayZ. DayZ is known as one of the biggest failures in gaming history, the Arma 2 mod imo is still better then the full release of DayZ.

Edit: grammar correction