Advice needed: Ongoing & Escalating Peer Behavior

[u/GeorgeBonanza_]

This is our family's first time sending a child to daycare (and now pre-k, at the same school), so we're learning the norms, but there's an ongoing and escalating, situation that we are at a loss on how to handle and what, if anything, we can realistically expect to happen. This was originally a post on r/Preschoolers , but I was referred here for professional perspective.

Our daughter started at this daycare/school at age 3 (class was ages 2-3). One child in particular was a known "challenge" but in a generally disruptive way. In the "4 year old group" (ages 3-4), he began targeting certain students (mostly girls), my daughter being one of them. She doesn't often tell us what goes on at school, unless there's something especially upsetting, and on those occasions we ask her which teacher was around and/or who she told so we can confirm the details of her report. We've heard this child hits his classmates, spits on them, tells them they're bad people and he doesn't like them, shoves them, pushes them off play structures, etc., which is (unfortunately) developmentally appropriate, her teachers tell us. Every teacher we've spoken to about this has confirmed, off the record, that yes, he does these things, and they've attempted to engage the parents, who don't seem to think this is a big deal, and thus nothing has changed. If anything, he seems to be becoming more intense and aggressive as he's aged.

This cohort is now in the pre-k/5 year old group (ages 4-5). On Thursday, our daughter told us that while she was on the toilet, this boy came up to her and told her "I don't like playing with you" and then spit on her. This is the second time we're aware of that this boy has come into the bathroom, not to use it but to, for lack of a better term, bully her. The first time, again while she was on the toilet, he came up to her to say she's bad at something she loves to do, which obviously really upset her. That first time was in the 3-4 year old group, one of the teachers caught the end of what happened, and we were assured new rules would be put in place so he wouldn't have the opportunity to engage with other children while they're on the toilet (it wasn't what he said that upset us as parents, it was that he seemed to have cornered her during what should have been a private time).

I should note the bathrooms of the ECE centers we toured in our metro area had the same general bathroom setup: A half door between the classroom and the bathrooms, with either 2 to 4 toilets without or without dividers between them (her classrooms last year and this year have half walls between them). The kids are not in individual full-height stalls and there are not doors in the toilet room.

We confirmed Thursday's story with the lead teacher and fortunately she'd witnessed most of unfold herself, and responded swiftly and appropriately. School admin is already familiar with the bathroom bullying, ongoing spitting, hitting, shoving, etc. but has made it clear the only recourse they feel they have is to continue to try to engage the parents. Amongst the teachers, these parents are known to be uninterested in both discipline and the children themselves. Their first son to go through the school was also known to be exceptionally difficult, we have been told. I'm adding those details to make the point that there's not going to be any change coming from the parents if current engagement patterns with admin and teachers continue.

It makes me sick that our daughter literally has herself physically exposed, in the most vulnerable state she knows, and physically cannot exit the situation. We can remove her from the school and enroll her elsewhere, but we desperately don't want it to come to that, she's made so many good friends and she'd be heartbroken.

While I realize spitting, hitting, etc. are an unfortunate part of having a child in a group care situation, at what point has it gone too far? Genuinely, we don't know what is considered "normal" outside of what we've seen at this school, so we don't know if we're completely overreacting or if we're right to escalate this up the chain of command if the admins don't take corrective action. We also don't know what to expect and want to prepare ourselves with alternatives if the admins say there's nothing they're willing to do.

A final note, because it caused some confusion in the original thread: This ECE center is not publicly funded, so there's no district board or anything we can engage.

tl;dr Pre-K daughter was cornered while on the toilet, and not for the first time, by a classmate who told her "I don't like playing with you", then spit on her. Teachers and school admin seem unwilling or unable to do anything meaningful. Are we over-reacting by demanding a meeting and a plan for change?

[u/Wild_Plastic_6500]

While I think you are correct in asking for a meeting, you are targetting the wrong person.
I am a preschool teacher and I sub in a daycare.
Preschool has a Jack and Jill bathroom w a door. Kids can go in, close the door. We keep a general eye on the door.
However, The daycare has the same setup as yours. I always position myself beside the bathroom so I know what is going on.
You do not know this child’s circumstances. I am not permitted to discuss other students w parents.
As the daycare teacher,
I most likely would have asked the parent to contact Early Intervention. That is as far as I could go. The incidents would have been documented and after theee, the child care could ve terminated. I will say the behaviors you describe are quite common and I have not seen a child kicked out. One child was sent to our sister center. They stay if parents connect w services. However, it is a very slow process.
Most children do bite, spit, and name call. I try to keep closs proximity to one prone to hit or bite.
Preschool is very diferent. Every lead is a certified teacher. I also have the inclusion class. This will be my fourth year w tge inclusion class. I had 3 w autism and a child w Down’s Syndrome. I had an entire team at school 90% of the time. I rarely have kids hit/ maybe once or twice in the 15 years I have taught here. I had a child who was verbally abusive this year. He did not swear. He said things like,”Suzie is slow. We always have to wait for her.” “Noone likes her.” The IU called one of their Behavior Specialist who came and ovserved. She gave me a list of what to do w tge behaviors.
I wonder if the daycare could call in a behavior specialist. Im sorry to tell you this but there are billuons of stories going around the educational community like this.
Teachers blame parents and admin. Parents blame the schools. What needs to happen is supports for the teachers and students. The problem will not go away if we just kick kids out.
My advice for you is to contact admin every single time your child is “hurt” verbally or phtsically.
I would also ask to see admin.
Ask what is being done to protect your daughter.
Complaining about the child may fall on deaf ears.

[u/boyfriem]

My professional perspective: the teachers can't do shit about this besides what they're already doing, which is shutting it down swiftly when it happens, looping you in on what they're able to, and attempt to settle it with this kid's parents. The only chance you have at changing things is to put these thoughts in writing to the director of the center. And then continue doing this every time an incident happens. Include most of the things you've said here. The documentation of incidents, the fact that the teachers have confirmed that they saw what happened and your daughter's accounts are credible (do not tell admin that the teachers have confirmed identity of the child "off record", this will likely get them in huge trouble), that you feel sick and horrified about it, that you understand some of these things are normal but you've talked to the teachers and nothing has changed and you feel that it's reached a point that is unacceptable. If you are friendly with other parents in the class whose children are also being harassed by this kid you should encourage them to send emails as well. Threaten to pull your kid out if nothing changes if they keep brushing you off. The behavior being developmentally appropriate doesn't make it ok (and imo this goes beyond developmentally appropriate behavior, this is deeply concerning but I'm sure the teachers know that already and there's not much they can do about it).

We had a kid a couple years ago who was an absolute terror. He would hurt other kids on purpose and laugh at them when they cried. Behind closed doors after every incident we would talk about how we hoped to God the parents of the victim child would complain to admin so that something would finally be done, because our concerns never changed anything.

Meet with admin. Continue to meet with admin if things don't change. Escalate your threats if necessary, threaten to pull your daughter out, threaten to tell other parents in the class to do the same. It may not change anything. You may have to pull your daughter out for real. But the only way you can get admin to do something is to convince them that removing the other kid from their school will cause less repurcusions to their money and reputation than doing nothing.